3D MTS files from a Sony HDR-TD10 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 281 Old 08-21-2011, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a way to watch MTS files copied from an HDR-TD10 (that were recorded in 3D) on a computer in 3D?

I have a Mitsubishi 3D DLP TV with shutter glasses I use for movies and games. I've tried playing them with VLC player but it's in 2D. I posted a message on Tri-Def's 3D Player forum but it doesn't look like it supports 3D MTS files.
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post #2 of 281 Old 08-21-2011, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok after doing some research I got Streophonic Player to play the files in 3D in DLP-Ready 3D mode. It works pretty well.

I'm new to this so the next step is figuring out how to edit movies and put music behind them. From what I read it looks like Vegas is the application to go with.

I'm helping my dropzone out with selling 3D Blu Rays of people's skydives so it looks like we'll be able to do it.

Is there a currently a way to burn 3D blu rays after editing them in Vegas (and have them work on all of the common 3D blu-ray players)?
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post #3 of 281 Old 08-22-2011, 04:32 PM
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What player did you use?

Good luck with Vegas. Maybe it will work better for you but it continuously crashed on me. I never was able to get one video to finish rendering and burn to a Blu-Ray. My trial for Vegas ran out without a single success so I gave up. Beyond running the camera right to my TV I could not get 3D to play any other way.
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post #4 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I used Stereoscopic player to play the .MTS files pulled from the camera and it worked well. But when I used Vegas to create a movie and render it as an AVCHD .M2TS file the stereoscopic player didn't play the file correctly - instead of automatically choosing a 3D layout (like it did for the .MTS file and set it to Separate Streams) it made me choose between the modes manually and none of them actually looked right.

It'd be best to be able to render to M2TS files and play them back on a PC to properly preview them before burning a blu-ray disc. If it's not possible to play an M2TS file rendered by Vegas in 3D on a PC then we may need to go straight to burning a blu-ray disc.

Is there a specific blu-ray burner which is recommended for burning 3D movies rendered by Vegas?
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post #5 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 05:36 AM
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You do not need a specif Blu Ray burner for 3D Blu Rays - every Blu Ray burner is fine - only the files are MVC encoded and the structure of the 3D Blu Ray is slightly different to a 2D Blu Ray, but that must be managed by the authoring tool not by the burner.

Yes, unfortunately the stability of Vegas for 3D editing is not as great as it should be. Vegas Moviestudio Platinum HD in the actual release 247 shows a lower stability compared with Vegas Pro 10e. That derives from the fact that VMS is created from the 32 bit Version of Vegas Pro - and it seems to be an older Vegas Pro version than the actual Vegas Pro 10e 32-bit. But it should be fine to edit a project with maybe 50-100 MVC fles.

Another major limitation is the 32-bit platform for editing MVC-files - means that you can edit something about 200-300 MVC files in Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum r247 at the moment, but have to disable the thumbnail preview of the events in the timeline (ram preview should be at zero).

Vegas Pro 10e 32 bit is a bit more robust compard with VMS, and Vegas Pro 10e 64 bit is even better, given the 64 bit architecture. So, if somebody wishes to edit TD10 footage in larger projects, he could or should think about an upgarde to Vegas Pro 10e 64bit.

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post #6 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so now the problem I'm running into is how to maintain the resolution and quality of the video in 3D output mode (in Vegas 11). I played the original videos from the HDR-TD10 in Stereoscopic Player and it played smoothly in HD in 3D. But when I use Vegas to render to an AVCHD file I can only choose between Side by Side, Line Alternate, Anaglyphic, and Line Alternate, Left or Right Only - there's no Separate Streams option (which I think the original videos are in).

Is there a way to maintain the exact quality and 3D mode of the original video and not lose quality or resolution when rendering the project?

I'm testing out rendering to AVCHD .M2TS files now but once I get a blu-ray burner I'll need to do the same with it (and maximize quality and resolution while maintaining 3D).
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post #7 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 06:30 PM
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Well, you do not need a separte stream option really for 3D Blu Ray - for 3D Blu Ray you need the Sony AVC/MVC encoder, and have to choose and modity the MVC templates (see below).

To maintain the resolution and quality of TD10 footage - no easy task at all for 3D Blu Rays. Typically, the TD 10 footage is 1080 50i (PAL areas) or 1080 60i (NTSC areas), but not 1080 24p. Unfortunately, the 3D Blu Ray specification foresees 720 50p, 720 60 and 1080 24p as MVC only. So for 3D Blu Ray you have to convert the TD10 footage, and that will reduce quality and/or resolution! There is no way to avoid that really, there is the only way to try to minimise the quality loss.

Generally spoken, there are two routes: first you could try to convert the footage to 1080 24p, by rendering the 3D footage with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder to 1080 24p. Choosing that path will remain resolution, but it will interpolates every frame new - what is something that reduces quality really. Many people have not been very happy with that way, and there is not really a good way from native 1080 60i to 1080 24p.

The second way would be to render to 720 50p (from 1080 50i camcorders) or 720 60p (from 1080 60i camcorders), what works better. That requires a good interlacer - and the Vegas internal deinterlacer is of medium quality only (some people tend to use deinterlacing plugins like the Yadif plugin). That is the better way, since not every frame must be interpolated, even if it requires the software to deinterlace the footage and resize it what will cost some quality. If you wish to be bettern then Vegas can do, you could use AVIsynth to deinterlace to 1080 60p, then scale to 720 60p.

If you give that try in Vegas, make sure that you set deinterlacing to "blend" or "interpolate" in the project properties, but not "none".

Be aware that the MVC templates in VMS r247 in the Sony AVC/MVC should be changed by using the customization buttom - take the MVC 1280x760 60p template if you use the NTSC model, but change the bit rate from 10 to 25.000.000. If you use the PAL model, you have to change both the bit rate to 25.000.000, but also the frame rate to 50 (double PAL). I recommend you to save the new templates for the future.

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post #8 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you so much Wolfgang I'll try the 720 60p with 25 bit rate and see if it meets the dropzone's needs (in terms of quality).
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post #9 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the best 3D output mode to use?

I think Side by Side (half) is probably the best way to go.
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post #10 of 281 Old 08-23-2011, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Nevermind I just realized the Side by Side (half or full) .M2TS render isn't actually in 3d because when I watch the movie without glasses I can see the two images are the same distance apart (regardless of how far away the things in the movie are). It creates a side by side render but it's like it's the same left or right stream instead of two different streams.
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post #11 of 281 Old 08-24-2011, 12:35 AM
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Side by Side half reduces the resolution by the half! As the name says....

Best output - there is not such a thing like a best output. What will be the best depends on your presentation medium - better then sbs half is sbs full, but that is not usefull for 3D Blu Rays. However, you can watch that on the PC, using the stereoscopic player.

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post #12 of 281 Old 08-24-2011, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Right I think it sounds like SBS Half would be good for blu-ray (and PC).

What I don't understand is why an SBS Half rendered .M2TS file doesn't actually look 3D in Stereoscopic player. It doesn't look 3D with my shutter glasses and when I look without glasses it's clear that the parralax (I think this is the right term) doesn't change throughout the image (there's no 3D effect).
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post #13 of 281 Old 08-24-2011, 03:53 PM
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How do you watch the sony files in 3d with stereoscopic player? I've just been playing with it and can't find any option that makes it work properly. Closest I get is anaglyph, but that doesn't work with my 3d glasses. Selecting Nvidia 3d just gives me 2 different pictures either sbs or one on top of the other, both of which don't work. I just want 120hz 3d, or does stereoscopic player not work this way??
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post #14 of 281 Old 08-24-2011, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a 3D Mitsubishi DLP TV so I just out the viewing mode to 3D DLP Ready TV and it worked.
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post #15 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Do I need special software to burn the 3D .AVC file rendered by Vegas? Would Sony DVD Architect work?
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post #16 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok I just found the Tools -> Burn Blu-Ray Disc and then burned it using Power2Go (included in my external Blu-Ray burner's software). But when I put it in my ps3 it doesn't recognize it. What do I need to do to get it to play?
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post #17 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 02:19 AM
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Ok. you found Power2Go by yourself, since Vegas creates only the Blu Ray ISO. With win7 there are also burning tools included as part of Win7.

No, the DVDA 5.2 will not work for 3D Blu Rays at the moment - only SD-DVDs and 2D Blu Rays are supported. The only economic possibility to create 3D Blu Rays is Vegas Pro and Vegas Moviestudio Platinum HD at the moment.

For your PS3 - well I do not use a PS3. But I believe to remember that there has been a firmware update for the PS3 for 3D Blu Rays.

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post #18 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Ok. you found Power2Go by yourself, since Vegas creates only the Blu Ray ISO. With win7 there are also burning tools included as part of Win7.

No, the DVDA 5.2 will not work for 3D Blu Rays at the moment - only SD-DVDs and 2D Blu Rays are supported. The only economic possibility to create 3D Blu Rays is Vegas Pro and Vegas Moviestudio Platinum HD at the moment.

For your PS3 - well I do not use a PS3. But I believe to remember that there has been a firmware update for the PS3 for 3D Blu Rays.

Good! but need to note this undocumented difference: For BluRay burn in Vegas Ver 10e requires you render your 3D timeline to an iso file first. Once rendered and saved to your hard drive. then you need to shut off 3D stereoscopic by selecting "off" in the properties. Now go back to tools and you can select the option to burn the iso file previously created and saved to the disk. This will play in a PS3 in 3D. The firmware upgrade is over a year old I believe. Some people didn't upgrade because it was reported an issue with pirated disks plus other negative issues. I upgraded and the 3D BD play fine.


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post #19 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 09:30 AM
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There has been a change in the burning function from Vegas 10d to Vegas 10e, I think. Have not followed that in detail, because I do not see that as big issue if you have to take an external burnng tool, or use the win7 tool instead (ok, some people are still with XP and may have an issue here).

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post #20 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so my PS3 has the firmware upgrade (I've been watching 3D blu-rays on it for some time) and I used Vegas 11 Platinum to create the SBS (Half) 3D MVC at 10mbps at 720 60p .ISO image file. I then used Power2Go to burn the .ISO image to the blu-ray disc. I'd put the disc in the PS3 but it didn't even recognize it (or let me browse it for files).

I've tried going back into Tools -> Burn Blu-Ray Disc in Vegas but it doesn't show me an option to burn the .ISO image I already created (I think it's only allowing me to create another ISO file).

What do I need to do differently to get this to work?
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post #21 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 11:50 AM
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Wolfgang- All the tools are still there for making a proper 3DBD in Vegas 10e. The main difference is how I stated. This has been discussed elsewhere several times. Sony explained that they were required to separate the process in 10e to be compliant with the BluRay standard. Don't ask me as I have no idea what specifics they were taliking about.

Anyway the work around is pretty simple and just prevents us from rendering and burning in one operation. We have to do it in two operations with 10e. Alternatively, once the render to iso file is performed, you can use any 3D burning software to make the disk, including DVDA 5.2. You just can't render 3D in DVDA 5.2 I choose to do everything inside of Vegas for now.

kostya00 I'm a bit lost on what you did and don't have the time to follow what you did wrong but the correct process is very simple and does not use a "render as" to a SBS file. You can have your timeline set to view in anaglyph and when your editing is done select the timeline to go to blu ray disk and go to tools burn etc and you will select render to iso file. select the desired 3D MVC default template such as 1080 24p x 1920 25Mbit for non action content or 720p60 x 1280 for action content and then create your iso file. Once you have the iso file you can burn it to BD-R or BD-RE as discussed. There are a couple of added frills, tips and tricks, but no menus with this. When properly done, you will end up with a Blu Ray 3D disk that will play automatically in any blu ray 3D player at full quality of the TD-10 camcorder for all intents and purpose. I'm not going to debate those who want to nitpick over very minor subtleties of bitrates etc as the debate is quite boring at this point. All I am trying to do is get you to a good quality 3D experience with your system.

If you get lost there are other threads here that not only show you the correct process, they have screen captures to show you what you need to select to get it done right.


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post #22 of 281 Old 08-25-2011, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Dan - I followed your procedure except I didn't set the timeline to anaglyph. In File -> Properties the 3D Output Mode is set to SBS Half (I'm not sure if this is what it needs to be). I created the ISO file by going to to Tools -> Burn Disc -> Blu Ray but when I burned it to a BD using Power2Go it didn't play on my PS3 (which players other 3D movies). I'll try again (and set the timeline to anaglyph) but I think I'm doing something wrong.
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post #23 of 281 Old 08-26-2011, 06:39 AM
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No don't do it that way. Follow the correct procedure, no exceptions like burn with power 2Go. I can't vouch for that product.. It doesn't matter what you have your properties set to as long as you have it set to do 3D on the timeline when you render and set to OFF for the burning process. I find the easiest way to KNOW your timeline in in 3D mode is use anaglyph for the preview screen. with properties set to anaglyph but it will also work with 3D set to SBS as you did.
You only execute the rendering with the tools burn disk blu ray disk and select one of the 3D MVC templates I described before.
After you do the render and get the iso file saved to hard disk, now go back to properties and select OFF for 3D streoscopic. Then go to the Tools, burn disk blu ray disk and select the option to burn disk from file. Put your blank disk in and burn.

This is really easy but if you keep insisting on experimenting with other procedure, you'll need to get support elsewhere.

Hey, I have nothing against experimenting with other ways to do these things but I prefer to know and understand what works first before venturing into other
methods and tools. It's like this- If you want a wheel, make one round first as we know that works, before trying out the square and triangular one. They may work too but the ride may also be bumpy.


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post #24 of 281 Old 08-26-2011, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya00 View Post

In File -> Properties the 3D Output Mode is set to SBS Half (I'm not sure if this is what it needs to be).

In file properties you do NOT set the output mode - but you adjust the project to the 3D mode. Can be sbs, can be anaglyphic - important is that you have the project set to a 3D mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya00 View Post

I created the ISO file by going to to Tools -> Burn Disc -> Blu Ray

That is fine so far, but what settings did you use here? It must be the Sony AVC/MVC encoder, one of the mvc templates as said.

If the 3D mode is not set in the project properties above, you will not see the mvc templates!

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post #25 of 281 Old 01-27-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

In file properties you do NOT set the output mode - but you adjust the project to the 3D mode. Can be sbs, can be anaglyphic - important is that you have the project set to a 3D mode.



That is fine so far, but what settings did you use here? It must be the Sony AVC/MVC encoder, one of the mvc templates as said.

If the 3D mode is not set in the project properties above, you will not see the mvc templates!

Gents, I have read the entire thread and perhaps you know of another newer string to comment but here goes. I have a Sony HDR-TD10 and have been experimenting with rendering to Blu-Ray. I have that down pretty well but no matter what format I select SBS (HALF) (FULL) Alternate, etc the rendered blu Ray sucks on my 3d TV compared to the Camera plugged straight into the TV. the prime issue is the ghosting effect. A slightly offset image or double image. Makes me feel cross eyed. Also the best I can get out of Vegas 11 bld 383 is 1920 X 1080 24p at only 10 Meg/PS.

Any new words of wisdom to get a better render (settings that is) BTW I had to buy a new Computer I7 with 16 Gig of ram to even get the thing to render without aborting.
Thanks
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post #26 of 281 Old 01-27-2012, 01:17 PM
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Follow the procedures in Vegas 11 thread. Or use Power Director Ultra. Its pretty straight forward work flow that also uses the PMB software that came with your TD10. You should not even be looking at the MTS file for burning 3DBD unless you used the device explorer tool in Vegas Pro v11.


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post #27 of 281 Old 01-28-2012, 02:37 AM
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You should render with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder and use a MVC-template. I think you are talking about Vegas Moviestudio 11 HD Platinum, the latest build is 283 but not 383. Here you can increase the data rate 25.000.000, by typing in the number and save that as a new template.

I think you are talking about Vegas Moviestudio 11 HD Platinum, the latest build is 283 but not 383. Here you can increase the data rate 25.000.000, by typing in the number and save that as a new template.

If you are shooting with 1080 60i, I would prefer to render to 720 60p... but that is something that you have to try if you are satisfied more with 720 60p or with 1080 24p (a conversion that Don likes for example, but that is still not as fine as I would like it to be, especially for 50i (pal)).

A template for PAL is:

- Video format: MVC
- Frame Size: High Definition (1280x720)
- Profile: High
- Entropy Coding: CABAC
- Frame rate: 50 (double PAL)
- kein Hakerl bei allow source to adjust frame rate
- Field Order: none (progressive scan)
- pixel Aspect Ratio: 1,000
- bit rate: 25.000.000
- Encode mode: automatic

Ghosing is an effect of your HDTV too - what you can try to do is to adjust convergence (during shooting) in a better way.

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post #28 of 281 Old 02-18-2012, 01:29 PM
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DEar all --
I really need some help form you pundits. I bought a HDR-TD10, recorded some footage of my family over the weekend but I just can't see the 3D recording thru projector (Panasonic PT AE 7000) -- it comes out as 2D.
I have an OPPO 3D player (connected to my Denon 3D receiver). I plugged the camera to the player's USB port and all I get is a 2D image. The player recognizes the file as a AVCH -- is that what it was supposed to be for a 3D file?
I thought I might've recorded everything in 2D by mistake, but no -- when I watch the recording on the camera's monitor it IS in 3D, and the 2D-3D switch is on 3D. Any idea what I might be doing wrong?!?
Thanks for any help you can provide --
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post #29 of 281 Old 02-18-2012, 04:39 PM
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Use hdmi not usb.


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post #30 of 281 Old 02-18-2012, 04:44 PM
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Hey, Don. Thanks for the tip. I tried HDMI too and nothing. I used the Oppo USB as it reads ISO 3D via USB. I just don't know why the player sees the camera file as an AVCH, not MTS.
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