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post #361 of 614 Old 11-12-2012, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

AV out from camcorders offers only analog 2D and stereo audio.
You can get 3D and 5.1 audio from the hdmi output.

Thats fine, I just wanted to know if you can have a live feed out whiles filming, The fact its only 2D on the AV out (NOT HDMI) is ok as we use this feature to send a live wireless stream out the projects/tvs when filming in nightclubs so the customers can see them self's on TV, We would not want this to be in a 3D format (SBS etc) anyway.

Thanks
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post #362 of 614 Old 11-24-2012, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Have received back my Z10K yesterday only - they have exchanged the first unit. So I had a quick look to that question. Mark is right, it is a side-by-side half output with 1080 60i only. I did not recognize that, since my 3D-HDTV switches to sbs-half automatically with the Z10K, what does not happen with my sat-receiver.

That is a pitty - means one can foreget the output for capturing due ot the half resolution in s3D. For 2D, I think you will not loose resolution really.

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post #363 of 614 Old 11-24-2012, 10:09 PM
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Panasonic Z10000 3D video of college ice hockey hockey game


This is a video taken of a college hockey game. The streaming 2D version (one lens view) is here:

https://vimeo.com/54184817

You can download the original from this site, which will play in 2D if you do not have 3D capability and 3D if you do. The original is 108060i MVC.

The streaming 3D version is here:

http://youtu.be/R1gH99d1JVY?hd=1

The video was shot at 1/60th shutter for smooth motion.

Does 3D work for sports? You will note some (brief) shaky cam at the beginning in telephoto mode, as the camera is too heavy for me to hold steady for such shots.
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post #364 of 614 Old 12-02-2012, 02:37 PM
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I have recived my new z10000. I am a little confused with the 1080p format setting. My understanding is that 1080p gives a better images quality as it refreshes all 1080 lines of resolution at once and not 540 alternatively like 1080i.

On reading the instructions closley it states that 1080p is actualy filmed as 1080i at what apears to be twise the rate. So am i geting the full quality that 1080p should be prducing or is it trying to mimic is by doubling the rate at 1080i?

I hope that made sense.

Thanks
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post #365 of 614 Old 12-02-2012, 05:03 PM
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The settings and manual says: In 3D, you get 108060i, 108030p or 108024p at 28Mbps. The setting for 108030p is output as 108060i, but it is really 108030p; really progressive and 30fps.
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post #366 of 614 Old 12-03-2012, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The settings and manual says: In 3D, you get 108060p, 108030p or 108024p at 28Mbps. The setting for 108030p is output as 108060i, but it is really 108030p; really progressive and 30fps.

The PAL version can record 3D in 1080 50i, 1080 24p and 1080 25p. But no 1080 50p. So I wonder why the ntsc version should be able to record in 1080 60p?? I think it is able to capture in 1080 60i, 1080 24p and 1080 30p only, but not in 1080 60p. Both 1080 50p and 1080 60p are availabe in 2D only.

For the 1080 25p mode the files are recorded progressive, but saved in an interlaced structure (but without a time difference between the fields, as far as I know).

For sure, the recording a progressive footage generates a better quality compared to interlaced footage. If one wishes to generate a MVC-based 3D-Blu-ray as created by Vegas Moviestudio or Vegas Pro, 1080 24p will be the best choice since that footage can be authored and burned without resizing. For multistream AVCHD 2.0/3D based structures as created by Edius or other tools, it is possible to shoot in 1080 50i/60i too - or one has to render to 720 50p/60p what is possible too.

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post #367 of 614 Old 12-04-2012, 03:48 PM
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Yeah, 3D is 108060i (typo); 108060p in 2D only.
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post #368 of 614 Old 12-08-2012, 04:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

When you connect the HDMI for a live feed in 3D mode you get sbs on the screen. Period. I posted a picture of the live feed on a monitor/recorder attached to the Z10000. You have a Z10000, check it out.

I am still confused about if that is right.

There are other opinions too:
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M. Cole;1766865 
No - the Z10K is producing a 24P FRAME-PACKED stream (full res per eye, not side-side), embedded in a 60i transport (aka PsF).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Richards;1766923 
Yes, if you connect the Z10k HDMI to a 1.4a 3D TV it outputs full res frame-packed 3D. If it's to a non-3D device e.g. HDMI 1.3 it defaults to side-by-side. This can be useful, I used it to connect to a Teradek Cube to get live sbs 3D monitoring with the Z10k on a glidecam.

www.dvinfo.net/forum/3d-stereoscopic-production-delivery/510059-3d-hdmi-1-4a-twin-sdi-converter.html


In the manual I have found in the German version for [hdmi], that the 3D-picture/video will be shown in full high definition with a 3D-compatible HDTV. I think that it is right that the Z10K produces an output on a 3D HDTV what is frame packed - because the Z10K switches my 3D HDTV to the 3D mode automatically, what would not happen if it is side-by-side half only.

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post #369 of 614 Old 12-08-2012, 08:31 PM
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This all makes sense. On the non3d ninja 2 you get sbs 108060i. On a 3d capable HDTV you get 108060i frame-packed 3d.
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post #370 of 614 Old 12-09-2012, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, but then we cannot state that the Z10K delivers sbs only when using the hdmi output. We have to state that "it depends" what the Z10K delivers. For sbs half the use of Ultrastudio 3D would not make sense. For frame packed s3d it may make sense really. Maybe the import question for Ultrastudio 3D is, if the output from hdmi has bypassed the compression from the hardware-encoder or not.

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post #371 of 614 Old 12-09-2012, 06:02 PM
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As a Z10K owner I can tell you this much;

the reason you are seeing 1080i instead of 1080P is because the HDMI output of the camera is in PSF format which appears to be interlaced but is in fact progressive. It is a format which Sony designed at the beginning of the HD era for it's cameras to be compatible with existing CRT monitors. Most if not all Sony cameras output in this format, and NLE systems understand and convert it to pure 24P or keep it in PSF format. Just Google PSF or Wiki it for a full explanation.

Also, people are having success with the Blackmagic UltraStudio 3D getting a full resolution frame packed 3D image out of the HDMI 1.4 output for recording. Any 3D HDTV which automatically displays the 3D without menu interdiction is getting and displaying the full L/R resolution of that output. Any monitor which is not HDMI 1.4 compatible will require menu interdiction to set the Side by Side up as 3D for viewing, but this is a half resolution display whereas frame packed is full resolution.

Hope this helps.
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post #372 of 614 Old 12-09-2012, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes that is exactly the outcome that we see also in other discussions - and the 1080 24p seems to be packed in a 1080 60i stream. However, there is still some unsecurity about the quality of the hdmi output.

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post #373 of 614 Old 01-30-2013, 10:42 AM
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I just purchased from B&H for $2,499 and you get the option to purchase Vegas Pro 12 for $100. at the same time.
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post #374 of 614 Old 02-10-2013, 12:33 PM
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H! I am New Here My name is Tino, And just got The pany Z10K and am reading all the post here but my english is very bad pero my spanglis is muy bueno.
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post #375 of 614 Old 02-15-2013, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesnapp View Post

I just purchased from B&H for $2,499 and you get the option to purchase Vegas Pro 12 for $100. at the same time.

I just did the same.

As a Sony TD-10 and TD-20 owner, I can say that the Z10k is a huge step up, and I am really happy with it.

Vegas 12 also renders much faster and more stable than Vegas pro 10.

The best part is having a straight 24p workflow. So much better than deinterlacing 60i footage.

Much better color, image quality, dynamic range, and low light performance.

The auto convergence is also really impressive, so that the sense of depth doesn't go flat while zooming like with the Sony units.

The only caveat is that it's a much larger, serious looking camera to be carrying around.

Here's a short clip I cut together from a recent trip to New Orleans (nsfw) -

Side By Side Full: www.californiaphotoart.com/videos/MardiGrasSBSFull3D.mp4
or
Side by Side Half: www.californiaphotoart.com/videos/MardiGrasSBSHalf3D.mp4
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post #376 of 614 Old 02-16-2013, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadbro View Post

The auto convergence is also really impressive, so that the sense of depth doesn't go flat while zooming like with the Sony units.

The sense of depth goes flat if you zoom, because to compensate a change in IO would be required during zooming. And that is not possible for the Z10K, TD10... TD30.

All what you can do with the Z10K is the adjustment of the zero plane. Typically you have the highest flexibility if you set the Z10K to parallel axis - what happens if you set the convergence manually to C99. But be aware that if doing so, one MUST adjusted the zero plane in the postproduction.

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post #377 of 614 Old 02-17-2013, 11:41 AM
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Tadbro- Thanks for the fun video. Looked good here except that your left / right is backwards. I just flipped it and the 3D came out perfect. Good sound recording too.

I don't own the Z10k but doesn't that camcorder record to separate SD cards for left and right? Maybe that is how you got the 3D backwards. Easy to do but also easy to fix. Thanks again. I enjoy seeing other's work especially from cameras that are still on my list to own someday.
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post #378 of 614 Old 02-17-2013, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Tadbro- Thanks for the fun video. Looked good here except that your left / right is backwards. I just flipped it and the 3D came out perfect. Good sound recording too.

I don't own the Z10k but doesn't that camcorder record to separate SD cards for left and right? Maybe that is how you got the 3D backwards. Easy to do but also easy to fix. Thanks again. I enjoy seeing other's work especially from cameras that are still on my list to own someday.

The Z10k has storage for 2 SD cards, but it records MVC, like the Sony TD10, JVC TD1, etc. The camcorder can be set to record to one card or the other, or it can be set to record to both redundantly, in case one card becomes corrupted.

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post #379 of 614 Old 02-17-2013, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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And it can be set to record on the first card, and to record to the second card, if the first card is full.

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post #380 of 614 Old 02-18-2013, 07:42 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. He must have flipped it in post then.
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post #381 of 614 Old 02-18-2013, 11:52 AM
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Thanks Don. I forgot that you have to check the swap left/right box in the project properties to keep the frames from flipping.

It's nice recording to cards instead of an internal hard drive in case the camera dies.
Had to wait 2 weeks to get my TD-20 back from warranty repair to recover the videos.

Makes sense that Sony eliminated the internal storage on the latest TD-30 model.
Memory cards are so cheap now, and more convenient.

The Z10k's auto convergence does make a difference when zooming.
The sense of depth just looks better than how the Sony units perform.

One thing about having your hands or camera raised around parade floats; that means, "Throw me something".
At one point the camera got smacked hard by a whole wad of bead necklaces, but wasn't damaged.
And moments after these scenes on Bourbon St. were shot, there was an actual shooting.
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post #382 of 614 Old 03-01-2013, 08:29 AM
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After holding out for over a year and a half, I finally pulled the trigger on buying the Panasonic Z10K yesterday. It should arrive sometime next week. Why now?

Buying now was a decision that was dictated on some financial ability and what my future project demands for the rest of the year are dictating. For the past 6 months the Panasonic Z10K had hit a floor of about $2400 in price which is in the range of what it was worth to me to have in the kit. I actually got it a little cheaper. Prices have begun to go up now from that and with inflation, the change in monetary policy in Japan, I figured I had waited long enough. Plus the US stock market is up to all time highs now so I sold some of my holdings taking profit to pay for it.

On the technical side of things, my only complaint on the Z10K was the physical size and balance for hand-held and shooting in crowds but my projects over the next year will be mostly tripod mounted with the triple camera rig. Today, I use this with twin NEX5n's with 10mm wide angle (maximum) along with a TD10 in the center for longer lens shooting of the same scene. Replacing the TD10 with the Z10K will give me a complete rig with 24p native shooting. The other capabilities of the Panasonic, I will not sacrifice 5.1 sound recording either. I will continue to use the HDR TD10 for shooting in crowds as it seems to be ideally suited for these environments.

There is always the question of whether something better will come out of NAB next month but considering this will be a Professional / Broadcast product show, I believe that what will be added to this level will be higher end, 4K level cameras and maybe a Z10K product with higher quality imager but at a price that would be out of range for what I wanted to spend. I do not see the price point going much lower on the Z10 for awhile. Consumer level products will go in the direction of less features and more automatic, be announced in almost a year at CES2014 so the wait here was not in my cards.

Triple rig with the Sony TD10 in the center, soon to be replaced with the Panasonic Z10K:

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post #383 of 614 Old 03-01-2013, 09:28 AM
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Great,
how do you do perfect synchronization with the NEX5 cameras?
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post #384 of 614 Old 03-01-2013, 02:26 PM
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I don't do anything "perfect" I'm happy with "good enough" for satisfaction. smile.gif
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post #385 of 614 Old 03-10-2013, 11:08 AM
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I was glancing through the PDF manual for the Panasonic Z10K and have a question on the SD cards required.

Can you use different size cards, e.g. a 64Gb SDXC and a 32GB SDHC together?

ETA on my new Z10k is on Tuesday.
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post #386 of 614 Old 03-10-2013, 11:11 AM
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24p is very choppy with this cam. Even some medium speed panning,
and even at 1/24 shutter speed, so i doubt ND filter can help here.
Then how can we make it better?
Are you guys use this 24p mode with z10k?
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post #387 of 614 Old 03-10-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxman View Post

24p is very choppy with this cam. Even some medium speed panning,
and even at 1/24 shutter speed, so i doubt ND filter can help here.
Then how can we make it better?
Are you guys use this 24p mode with z10k?

24p is choppy. Using a slower shutter speed can make it more tolerable by creating motion blur. Artificial motion blur is used even in animated films for moderate to fast pans, for that very reason.

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post #388 of 614 Old 03-10-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I was glancing through the PDF manual for the Panasonic Z10K and have a question on the SD cards required.

Can you use different size cards, e.g. a 64Gb SDXC and a 32GB SDHC together?

ETA on my new Z10k is on Tuesday.

I never tried it, but I don't see why not. I'll try to test it later, if I get a chance. It's a busy day. smile.gif

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post #389 of 614 Old 03-10-2013, 01:02 PM
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Relaxman- What monitor are you using? Video that I shoot in 2D or 3D, 24fps or even 60p might look choppy on my Vizio due to it being a 60Hz refresh rate but the same video played on my 240 Hz 3D projector looks smooth as silk.


Joe- there may be an issue with using them in that redundant mode but I agree, when recording to just one why would it matter? I bought two cards for the Z10K, a 64Gb XC and a 32Gb HC, both are Sandisk Extreme's 45 Mb/s I use them in my NEX5n and they record 1080 60p with no problem.

I also bought a spare IR remote to cannibalize for that experiment I told you about. It was $18 for an exact replacement. I'll probably end up getting the Varizoom unless I discover something better at NAB.
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post #390 of 614 Old 03-10-2013, 01:05 PM
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3DTV at 24Hz. Movies are ok, z10k footage not.
Your 24fps recorded files are ok on 250Hz projector?
Maybe it do some interpolating?
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