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post #541 of 681 Old 04-15-2014, 03:57 PM
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I plan on upgrading to a better GPU here shortly, looking at going with the Sapphire 7950 for a couple of reasons. It's under 500.00, it handles 3D and it also handles 4k all on the same card, it will also work in my Mac Pro. I still need a 3D display before I can edit. Not that far along yet.

So maybe not as bad with the built in MVC encoder on these prosumer cams as I'd thought and that makes sense because when you view it in 3D with both frames combined the image is actually more than what would appear to come from watching the left frame by itself and multiplying those results by two.

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post #542 of 681 Old 04-15-2014, 04:00 PM
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Yes it does at 28mbps.

That is interesting. I'll have to import one of my clips and check it out. PD might be back on the menu, maybe not for 3D but for 60p stuff.

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post #543 of 681 Old 04-15-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post

I plan on upgrading to a better GPU here shortly, looking at going with the Sapphire 7950 for a couple of reasons. It's under 500.00, it handles 3D and it also handles 4k all on the same card, it will also work in my Mac Pro. I still need a 3D display before I can edit. Not that far along yet.

So maybe not as bad with the built in MVC encoder on these prosumer cams as I'd thought and that makes sense because when you view it in 3D with both frames combined the image is actually more than what would appear to come from watching the left frame by itself and multiplying those results by two.

You're going to be editing on a Mac? I don't think there's anyone here is our small group that could help out with Mac-related 3D issues. We're all PC guys here, and Vegas, PowerDirector and Edius only work on PCs. Premiere works on a Mac, though.

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post #544 of 681 Old 04-15-2014, 04:58 PM
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Tomtastic,
I'm sorry to say, that if you really want to get into this 3D bizarro world which we inhabit, you may want to consider moving to the PC platform.
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post #545 of 681 Old 04-15-2014, 07:05 PM
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I have 8.1 setup on bootcamp. I can move files back and forth if I need to, already tested it out. But for editing I'll probably be using Vegas Pro since it already has the MVC and Blu ray option built in. Also the free MVC encoder running around appears to be just for windows. But even for 2D stuff, I'll probably do most of my work on in 8.1 since the Blu ray authoring has more support on Windows. It hasn't changed much since 2006, but Apple doesn't care much for paying licensing on Blu ray so it probably won't be getting better support for it anytime soon. Actually, I think there's a few Mac Pro users running around here with 3D.

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post #546 of 681 Old 04-15-2014, 07:11 PM
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Great. No problem then.

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post #547 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 07:30 AM
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We did have a couple 3D enthusiasts a while back using Mac OS and BootCamp but they never really did much involved editing. Even in the PC world, I am a believer in designing a machine to do a specific task when it comes to video editing. Joe knows I have preached this philosophy for a long time. I don't even web surf on my video editing machine. I have 3 computers ( PC's) here in the edit room. One is for business and finance. Another is for web surfing and testing. The big system is loaded with robust graphics and very fast SSD storage plus multiple HDDs for library archives. It is designed for fast editing of 3D video since that is the only type video I do these days. I also use an iPAD and a Surface Pro. In other parts of the house, I have iMACs and ipads. I gave my Mac Book Pro away. It had Windows XP also running and was adequate for field video editing with Vegas Pro and Final Cut Pro that I used mostly for my contract FCP editiors I hired for temp work. FCP editors are a dime a dozen around here. Good ones will cost you a quarter and are begging for work. biggrin.gif

IMO, if you want your editing machine to perform, build a machine to optimize for 3D. A one machine does all will be a compromise and be frustratingly slow.
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post #548 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 08:37 AM
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For editing, I've got a Mac Pro 2.26 8 Core, it's mostly stock right now, running 10.9/8.1. I need to get some more memory for it as well as a better gpu and then a 3D display. The Sapphire 7950 supports 3D and 4k so I think I might go with that one. I did get a Blu ray burner for it and installed but not much else other than a couple of HDD drives for it. Not doing any editing right now except some old mini DV tapes that I'm trying to get finished up that I found. That's running on an older G5 Mac sitting right next to my Mac Pro with Final Cut Pro. Talk about slow, try editing on that machine for awhile. I think it's ten years old now. I've got a Mac Book Pro, for web and stuff, a couple of mac mini's for each TV room for running Plex. An 8 Core Xserve to host everything, still trying to get enough HDD's to keep up with media I keep adding but it's a loosing battle. I need to start my next array of 24TB soon.

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post #549 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 09:10 AM
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You just reminded me I need to get busy. I have just over 1 TB of video and stills I shot over the last month. I used a WD Passport 2 TB drive on the trip to off load the SD cards and get everything in folders for editing. That's what I use the Surface Pro for. Now I can dump the WD Passport drive to a standard HDD in the editing system for work. When I get ready to actually edit I transfer all the video and other media to a folder for the titled project on an SSD while editing. When done all the files for the project are archived on an old surplus HDD. Its a good system that works in the PC world. If I ever need to reopen the project a year later I have everything in one place.
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post #550 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 10:19 AM
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You just reminded me I need to get busy. I have just over 1 TB of video and stills I shot over the last month. I used a WD Passport 2 TB drive on the trip to off load the SD cards and get everything in folders for editing. That's what I use the Surface Pro for. Now I can dump the WD Passport drive to a standard HDD in the editing system for work. When I get ready to actually edit I transfer all the video and other media to a folder for the titled project on an SSD while editing. When done all the files for the project are archived on an old surplus HDD. Its a good system that works in the PC world. If I ever need to reopen the project a year later I have everything in one place.

Don,
What's your feeling on the longevity of the data we store on our external storage drives. I see so called experts saying anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I'm not so sure I agree with this and suspect it could be considerably longer, but who knows. Storing large amounts of data on blurays is impractical and having to replace hardrives every 3 to 5 years or wipe and retransfer all the data back to them aint to swift either. Someone has just come out with a disc which, at this point, is only for commercial application which should hold 100gb or more, but even that would seem somewhat insufficient.
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post #551 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 11:07 AM
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Tomtastic,
I'm sorry to say, that if you really want to get into this 3D bizarro world which we inhabit, you may want to consider moving to the PC platform.

Got a grin out of that "3D bizzaro world which we inhabit" reference. More truth to that than might appear at first glance.
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post #552 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 11:21 AM
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Don,
What's your feeling on the longevity of the data we store on our external storage drives. I see so called experts saying anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I'm not so sure I agree with this and suspect it could be considerably longer, but who knows. Storing large amounts of data on blurays is impractical and having to replace hardrives every 3 to 5 years or wipe and retransfer all the data back to them aint to swift either. Someone has just come out with a disc which, at this point, is only for commercial application which should hold 100gb or more, but even that would seem somewhat insufficient.

I think HDDs typically last a lot longer than that, especially if they're just sitting on a shelf. Even going 24/7, many of the 24 hard drives in my UnRaid server are well past that point. Age doesn't even seem to play a big part in the failures I've had. In my server, newer drives have failed more often than older ones. I question those expert opinions, but I don't have any data to support it other than my own anecdotal experiences.

You can already get 100GB discs in BD-XL format. They're expensive, but available. Less expensive 100GB discs may be on the horizon for Blu-ray 4K. They're also talking about 300GB Blu-ray discs, too, but for the enterprise. When you read about DVD and Blu-ray, that 3-5 year life span always comes up. But other reports I've read make a big deal about "archive quality" recordable discs that are good for long term storage. Recordable discs are more questionable in general. The dyes they use for the recording layers aren't nearly as robust as stamped commercial discs. When I did a 100th anniversary video for my parish a couple of years ago, I gave the church all my source material on archive quality Blu-ray discs, in addition to keeping everything on my UnRaid server. With Edius, I could just restore that project to an SSD or HDD array and pick up where I left off. (Not that that's likely to happen. smile.gif )

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post #553 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 11:25 AM
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Tom,

Don is right. I built a system from scratch for 3D editing. You may have to bite the bullet and do the same. Be prepared for that possibility. 3D is extremely demanding on a computer system - not as much as 4K 3D, of course, but you need a lot of power and speed (CPU, GPU, SSD).

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post #554 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 12:06 PM
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Joe,
The 3-5 year limitation comes up in the context of hard drives/ magnetic media. Bluray and optical media are considered to me more secure for archival purposes. Some of these, "experts" seem to allude to the fact(?) that there will be some deterioration of the magnetic data. Like I said before, I suspect that 3 to 5 years is highly questionable, but then I'm not an "expert"- LOL!smile.gif
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post #555 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 12:08 PM
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Got a grin out of that "3D bizzaro world which we inhabit" reference. More truth to that than might appear at first glance.


I used bizarro as shorthand for: A half finished world that's been cast adrift by those who created it. smile.gif
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post #556 of 681 Old 04-16-2014, 12:29 PM
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I think I'll stick with the Mac Pro, it should be sufficient. I'm not into building PC's. I'll just upgrade mine and call it good. If anything, I'll just add another machine at some point to spit up some tasks but it'll be another Mac Pro since I'm a Mac guy.

As far as data longevity, it should be infinite, as long as you have everything backed up.

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post #557 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 10:06 AM
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Don,
What's your feeling on the longevity of the data we store on our external storage drives. I see so called experts saying anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I'm not so sure I agree with this and suspect it could be considerably longer, but who knows. Storing large amounts of data on blurays is impractical and having to replace hardrives every 3 to 5 years or wipe and retransfer all the data back to them aint to swift either. Someone has just come out with a disc which, at this point, is only for commercial application which should hold 100gb or more, but even that would seem somewhat insufficient.

During my career in broadcast TV, I began storing my TV shows and 30 sec spots on HDD. I have over a hundred drives on the shelf storing over 3000 TV shows and some 5000 30 second spots. We store all necessary raw video, music and sfx and still art plus the project files under one folder structure. I began doing this for my shows before Vegas and was using a Hybrid editing system by FAST Video in the mid 90's. While those old shows are now long impossible to open up due to the computer hardware failing, all my shows I began editing with Vegas ver 3 can still be opened. The first 30 second spot I did with a trial version of vegas 3 was in December 2001. This is on an old IDE hard drive and is still functioning. Of course the guys at Sony always made sure older project files could be opened in newer versions of Vegas and Vegas Pro so I always designed my computer builds as technology improved with a card that I could plug in the older HDD technology. Even today, I have a PCIE to IDE HDD controller card with a long IDE cable and power connector I can access my older HDD with old TV shows. In those days I shot on mostly Betacam SP and digitized the video with Vegas VCR control software. Coincidentally, I just got an e-mail from an old Producer yesterday who said he lost his submaster of an old Golf show I did. I have that 2004 video on IDE drive and will fire it up and run off a copy for him. This time it will be burned from Vegas timeline to a DVD.

I decided to end storage of raw video and finished masters on tape and optical media some 6 years ago and everything I have is on HDD.
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post #558 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 11:07 AM
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Joe,
The 3-5 year limitation comes up in the context of hard drives/ magnetic media. Bluray and optical media are considered to me more secure for archival purposes. Some of these, "experts" seem to allude to the fact(?) that there will be some deterioration of the magnetic data. Like I said before, I suspect that 3 to 5 years is highly questionable, but then I'm not an "expert"- LOL!smile.gif

Actually, I've read many articles that say recordable media (DVD and Blu-ray) may have only a 3-7 year life span before they become partially or completely unreadable. (Again, dyes that are used for recording are not as stable as machine stamped discs.) I've experienced this with some older recordable discs, though it's not a given they'll fail. Some brands are better than others (TDK tends to get high ratings). Also, protecting them from light and temperature extremes should help. It's easy enough to test how well your discs are holding up if you've been recording for a long time. Grab some discs that are in the 5-7 year range and try to read them.

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post #559 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 11:43 AM
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I got back into PD and found the 60p output so that's a nice feature. Vegas needs to get this added. It would be nice to edit and output at the same frame rate progressively.

I tried Windows Media Player and it's just as bad as VLC, it's not playing all frames.

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post #560 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 12:39 PM
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I got back into PD and found the 60p output so that's a nice feature. Vegas needs to get this added. It would be nice to edit and output at the same frame rate progressively.

I tried Windows Media Player and it's just as bad as VLC, it's not playing all frames.

Tom,
I think your problem is with your graphic card. When I first bought my TM900, my 3 year old quad core system I had at that time would not play the clips smoothly. I was quite disappointed. I subsequently bought a new system last year with what was currently the fastest processor and, more importantly, a good graphic card- in my case the Nvidia 660ti. As I said in my previous post, problem solved. The 60p clips play smooth as butter with no dropped frames. They play just fine with Power DVD and Windows Media Player.
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post #561 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 12:56 PM
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Actually, I've read many articles that say recordable media (DVD and Blu-ray) may have only a 3-7 year life span before they become partially or completely unreadable. (Again, dyes that are used for recording are not as stable as machine stamped discs.) I've experienced this with some older recordable discs, though it's not a given they'll fail. Some brands are better than others (TDK tends to get high ratings). Also, protecting them from light and temperature extremes should help. It's easy enough to test how well your discs are holding up if you've been recording for a long time. Grab some discs that are in the 5-7 year range and try to read them.

Joe and Don,
As always, thanks for your input. At the present time, I have 3 redundant Toshiba 2tb desktop drives. One is in a safe in the house, the other is hooked directly into a bluray player, and the third is in a safe deposit box at a bank. I live on a ridge top above Reno NV with a field of sage and high desert grass behind my fence. I figure it's not a matter of if but when a fire happens. My gut feeling is that since the drives are seldom used the data- thank you Don for confirming my suspicions- should be good for perhaps 10 years. I suppose in 6 or 7, I might decide to rewrite the data and refresh it in that manner. My biggest concern would be for data with family pictures and video since that is quite irreplaceable. I also have archives of a lot of still images I created when I was doing magazine feature, cover designs, and collector plate designs, back in the 90s but those use minimal data and can also be stored on DVDS or bluray.

Don, I REALLY LIKE your idea about archiving whole projects on storage drives and I'm going to start doing that as I go!
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post #562 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 01:19 PM
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That could be a problem then, not so much from my Mac Pro, but I host everything on Plex, I use a Mac Mini as client at each screen, which isn't upgradable. Plex or the graphics cards do not handle 60p correctly. So maybe 60p isn't a good option.

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post #563 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 01:23 PM
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Joe and Don,
As always, thanks for your input. At the present time, I have 3 redundant Toshiba 2tb desktop drives. One is in a safe in the house, the other is hooked directly into a bluray player, and the third is in a safe deposit box at a bank. I live on a ridge top above Reno NV with a field of sage and high desert grass behind my fence. I figure it's not a matter of if but when a fire happens. My gut feeling is that since the drives are seldom used the data- thank you Don for confirming my suspicions- should be good for perhaps 10 years. I suppose in 6 or 7, I might decide to rewrite the data and refresh it in that manner. My biggest concern would be for data with family pictures and video since that is quite irreplaceable. I also have archives of a lot of still images I created when I was doing magazine feature, cover designs, and collector plate designs, back in the 90s but those use minimal data and can also be stored on DVDS or bluray.

Don, I REALLY LIKE your idea about archiving whole projects on storage drives and I'm going to start doing that as I go!


Make a primary HDD array, then a backup. If you're data is really important make multiple backups and if they're really, really important, off site backups incase they get stolen. I have all of my content backed up locally as well as in two other off site locations. Even with just a primary and a backup, you're data should outlive you as long as it's monitored and bad drives are replaced with good ones.

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post #564 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 01:39 PM
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That could be a problem then, not so much from my Mac Pro, but I host everything on Plex, I use a Mac Mini as client at each screen, which isn't upgradable. Plex or the graphics cards do not handle 60p correctly. So maybe 60p isn't a good option.

Tom,
1080 60p is fantastic. Except when I feel that 3d is appropriate for what I want to accomplish, I will ONLY shoot 60p. You obviously already have a fair amount of money in this thing, but I would urge you to maybe go just a bit further and get something which will enable you to view 60p. It probably won't be real expensive. It might be as easy as just a new graphic card and power supply. I think you'll decide that it was worth it once you see just how good the 60p from that great camera of yours will look! Also, it really lends itself to still frame captures and will produce a file of about 7.5 megabytes per frame. This is equivalent to a 3 megapixel image which has been cropped to 16/9.
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post #565 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 02:20 PM
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In anticipation of using Vegas Pro 13 am looking at getting a desktop computer to run the editing software. I like Don's idea about using a dedicated computer exclusively for video editing. Stopped by my local B--Buy and asked what they recommend for video editing. I was shown an ASUS M51AD=BO5 which comes with a NVIDIA GTX 760 dedicated graphics card, the Intel Core i7 Processor, Windows 8.1 64-bit, and I believe 12 GB memory and 2 TB Hard Drive. It has bluetooth and HDMI support and built in wireless. The package is $1029.99. I assume I will need to add a Blu-Ray Burner to be able to create 3D Blu-Ray discs. Does this sound like as close to plug and play as I can get and provide adequate computing power for editing of 3D video for creation of 3D-Blu-Rays. Will I need any other software than Vegas Pro 13? The ASUS reportedly has only one vacant bay so after adding the blu-ray player/recorder that would apparently be it. I do note that the Videoguys on their website speak highly of ASUS motherboards for video editing so getting an ASUS computer would have that plus.

Welcome any thoughts or suggestions.
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post #566 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 03:04 PM
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Tom,
1080 60p is fantastic. Except when I feel that 3d is appropriate for what I want to accomplish, I will ONLY shoot 60p. You obviously already have a fair amount of money in this thing, but I would urge you to maybe go just a bit further and get something which will enable you to view 60p. It probably won't be real expensive. It might be as easy as just a new graphic card and power supply. I think you'll decide that it was worth it once you see just how good the 60p from that great camera of yours will look! Also, it really lends itself to still frame captures and will produce a file of about 7.5 megabytes per frame. This is equivalent to a 3 megapixel image which has been cropped to 16/9.

It isn't a problem getting a machine up to spec to view 60p, I plan on doing that on my Mac Pro anyway, the problem is in distribution, there is no solution. You can't burn 60p to any disc format and for hosting 60p content will be problematic from what I'm reading. I can't just worry about my own machines I also have to worry about what everyone else has on their end and if it will be a problem if they view it. It's not like I can tell them, "upgrade your machine." They're just not going to do it if they can play everything else fine but 60p. Not everyone can just buy a new machine or upgrade a graphics card. I can't even do that on all of mine right now. My Mac mini's handle HD fine, but not 60p. I may have to just output to 60i and call it good. I'll of course keep the raw 60p and maybe one day they'll be more support for it. Right now, I don't see it as a good end solution.

I've also read it may not even be a hardware issue. It might just be VLC and Plex that aren't optimized for 60p.

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post #567 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 03:07 PM
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In anticipation of using Vegas Pro 13 am looking at getting a desktop computer to run the editing software. I like Don's idea about using a dedicated computer exclusively for video editing. Stopped by my local B--Buy and asked what they recommend for video editing. I was shown an ASUS M51AD=BO5 which comes with a NVIDIA GTX 760 dedicated graphics card, the Intel Core i7 Processor, Windows 8.1 64-bit, and I believe 12 GB memory and 2 TB Hard Drive. It has bluetooth and HDMI support and built in wireless. The package is $1029.99. I assume I will need to add a Blu-Ray Burner to be able to create 3D Blu-Ray discs. Does this sound like as close to plug and play as I can get and provide adequate computing power for editing of 3D video for creation of 3D-Blu-Rays. Will I need any other software than Vegas Pro 13? The ASUS reportedly has only one vacant bay so after adding the blu-ray player/recorder that would apparently be it. I do note that the Videoguys on their website speak highly of ASUS motherboards for video editing so getting an ASUS computer would have that plus.

Welcome any thoughts or suggestions.

That sounds like a good start. It may need serious tweaking, since a lot of PCs come loaded down with crapware that gets in the way of performance. You'll probably also need an SSD or two for project files. You don't want to run everything from your system drive.

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post #568 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post

I got back into PD and found the 60p output so that's a nice feature. Vegas needs to get this added. It would be nice to edit and output at the same frame rate progressively.

I tried Windows Media Player and it's just as bad as VLC, it's not playing all frames.

You can do this in Vegas Pro if you have 60p content you need to edit and render output at 60p. Vegas calls it "Double NTSC" and you need to set your properties to do that. I once experimented shooting 1080 60p with my twin cams. Both the NEX 5n and my TD10 pair will do it when shooting twin cameras. The problem is trying to find a system that will play this format. At some point you will need to down res your 60p to 720 x 1280 or down convert the frames to 1080 24p. While it's cool to shoot the 1080 60p if you have a camera capable for 3D, it really is a waste of computer power and editor time working with these large files. Better to stick to current standards and concentrate on telling your story.
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post #569 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

You can do this in Vegas Pro if you have 60p content you need to edit and render output at 60p. Vegas calls it "Double NTSC" and you need to set your properties to do that. I once experimented shooting 1080 60p with my twin cams. Both the NEX 5n and my TD10 pair will do it when shooting twin cameras. The problem is trying to find a system that will play this format. At some point you will need to down res your 60p to 720 x 1280 or down convert the frames to 1080 24p. While it's cool to shoot the 1080 60p if you have a camera capable for 3D, it really is a waste of computer power and editor time working with these large files. Better to stick to current standards and concentrate on telling your story.

Right, I think I'll just convert to 60i and call it good. If it's dropping 20-30 frames per second anyway, I don't see any use for it and it will likely be that way on those I share with too.

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post #570 of 681 Old 04-17-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post

It isn't a problem getting a machine up to spec to view 60p, I plan on doing that on my Mac Pro anyway, the problem is in distribution, there is no solution. You can't burn 60p to any disc format and for hosting 60p content will be problematic from what I'm reading. I can't just worry about my own machines I also have to worry about what everyone else has on their end and if it will be a problem if they view it. It's not like I can tell them, "upgrade your machine." They're just not going to do it if they can play everything else fine but 60p. Not everyone can just buy a new machine or upgrade a graphics card. I can't even do that on all of mine right now. My Mac mini's handle HD fine, but not 60p. I may have to just output to 60i and call it good. I'll of course keep the raw 60p and maybe one day they'll be more support for it. Right now, I don't see it as a good end solution.

I've also read it may not even be a hardware issue. It might just be VLC and Plex that aren't optimized for 60p.

Who do you want to see this video?

Distribution is always a problem, since 720/60p 3D and 1080/24p 3D (in the US) are the only 3D formats that will play in standard Blu-ray 3D players. The implementation of 1080/60i 3D in AVCHD 2.0 players isn't consistent enough (IMO) to feel comfortable that even that small subset of 3D users will be able to watch it.
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