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post #601 of 614 Old 06-04-2014, 09:56 PM
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According to the email I received from Rob at DSA Sales and Support, you need the following:
DSA Indie and DSA EX
DSA 3D Module
DSE AVC and MVC encoder

For 3D, it's at least 17k and doesn't include a NLE. There's built in burning solution as far as I know, but you can output to Blu Print if needed. Yeah, a little out of my league too, if there was a sub 5k solution I'd jump on it.

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post #602 of 614 Old 06-04-2014, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Tom it's been awhile since I sat through the DoStudio presentation but as I recall you still needed the additional modules to do all the encoding for Do Studio, which is mostly a menu preparation program. I recall to do the full package you needed all the modules to get to a finished 3D Blu Ray. Like you said, in other words out of my league. $17K is just for the menu base editor. I spent quite a bit of time talking about us little guys to the guy in charge of the Do Studio project. basically, I asked him to look at Power Director and it's 3D menu engine for Blu Ray. Said DVD Architecture could be made into something similar and everyone would be happy. ( except you of course, but your entry level is essentially that of professional video, not amateur / consumer. It;s what Sony made DoStudio for.

Barry- It all depends on our timing and weather, of course. I'd like to make it out there in April too, for NAB and some shooting but that would likely be more Canyon lands.

The Cyclopital SBE systems are designed for more telephoto as I understand it. My twin cams are using wide IA so I can also go wide angle lens as well This makes stuff really small unless the objects are really large, like mountains. shooting close. The only place I ever was able to use the 9mm lens set and 21" IA was at Bellagio Fountains where it was so wide, high and close up. In Valley of the Gods, I started to shoot one very interesting area and quickly switched to 12mm and finally 16 mm since the scenery was so far away. Here the objects were just not tall enough. It really is a juggling act to get the scene width with enough height. Getting the 3D once you lock in the scenery is just a matter of the right I.A. You should download one of the 3D calculator apps for ipad or android phones and plug in some numbers and it will tell you your size ranges for your SBE lens mm and IA mm. These calculators can work the numbers backwards to see what works for your fixed camera settings too.


Don,
Yosemite takes on different characters during different seasons. In the Winter, the many waterfalls aren't running but the snow in the valley, mountains around it, and trees can be quite spectacular. In the late Spring and early Summer, when the falls are all running, its really awesome. We've been in a pretty bad drought this year since the eastern half of the country got our share of snow but it's still early enough that the falls should still be running OK- I hope. Your understanding of the SBE is correct, somewhat of a telephoto. However, there are some shooting opportunities that lend themselves well to this. When you see what I come up with, I'll let you be the judge. I realize that in many instances, I'll be pushing the SBE to the limits for effective 3D. But, after a bit of experimentation last year, I think it's certainly doable.
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post #603 of 614 Old 06-05-2014, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post

Right, but a built in burnable solution is limited to 25mbps. Dostudio is about 17k which can do full 40mbps MVC but that's a big leap from 500.00. There's apparently a free MVC encoder or two floating around, haven't messed with them yet, but might be able to get that option to work. I'd take fully edited 3D and output both streams independently at 25 mbps, then run them thru the MVC encoder at 36-40 mbps.

The MVC technology is very very very expensive - and we can be happy that NLEs like Vegas has incoprorated an MVC encoder at all, even if Sony had to constrain the data rate. Other products like Edius or Adobe does not have an MVC encoder at all!!!

And: there is no free MVC encoder at all, given the expensive licensing costs. There are multiplexed encoders that are much cheaper, incoporated in low costs products like Pinnacle Studio or the Powerdirector - but these encoders will not generated MVC streams that are in line with the 3D-Blu-ray specifications.

Either you are able to spend the huge amount of money for professional products like DoStudio, or you have to be satisfied with the existing low-cost lines.

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post #604 of 614 Old 06-05-2014, 07:32 AM
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I was directed to a free MVC encoder that was developed, backward engineered possibly, I don't know. I went thru and read the thread on it, the link is in one of these threads, I have it saved but I've never tried it. I'm not at the point where I have anything ready to test now so I haven't pursued it. It's command line based. When I get closer I'll test it out, from what they posted there, they could get bit rates up to 40 mbps max.

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post #605 of 614 Old 06-05-2014, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Funny if it is true that there is now a free MVC encoder - what would be great, even if I ask myself how that should be possible given the tough licensing fees.

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post #606 of 614 Old 06-06-2014, 06:41 AM
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Wolfgang- I asked a VP at DTS how Power Director was able to get their encoder when Sony claimed they couldn't for Vegas due to license fees and keep the price point where it is. The DTS exec said they went to them and offered it as a free deal to get DTS name and advertising on a great consumer level product. The past few years DTS has been trying hard to grow beyond movie theater sound and compete with Dolby on the consumer level.

As far as FREE MVC encoder- Nokia offered a package some years ago for free. I think it was limited bitrate and resolution.

http://mvclab.googlecode.com/files/SoftwareManual.doc

And here is the notorious FREE encoder software link. Good Luck!

http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/download/
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post #607 of 614 Old 06-06-2014, 06:35 PM
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Hey Tom-

I did some careful look at the bright sun lit video off the Z10K today and compared it to some other video I had from a higher end camcorder. I have to agree with you it was not quite right in color clarity so I put the scopes on it in Vegas and began to work with the color corrector. Mostly, the hue was dead on at 5600K but the black levels, and color saturation were off. I did some minor correction tweaks and it really made an improvement. I also tweaked the gamma and offset too. Then saved the correction settings for future use. Detail definition was really enhanced with the correction. Next, I plan to look into some of the menus in the Z10K itself and see if there is a way to make this tweak in the camera. If not, at least I have a way to achieve this in post.

Funny, I've been using the camera for over a year and never gave it much thought until you made your comparison. Regardless of where the correction ends up, here, I will have significantly higher quality image thanks to your critical eye.

More specifically, the white level in the camera was clipped at 115 IRE and I pushed that down to below 100. The blacks were running 15-20 IRE so that was stretched down to 7.5IRE. Using the gamma I moved most of the center luminance down from 55-60 IRE to 45 IRE which gave the color contrast some real pop.

For scenes in the shade, the blue showed a strong push so I backed off here and added more red to give that afternoon sun setting hue. I might have had the camera on manual fixed WB so that could have been the issue here. If not, my other run and gun setting ATW, may not be working as good as I expect.

I suggest you repeat your evaluation of the Z10K and verify the color and luminance parameters. I'll let you know what I find in trying to make these corrections in the camera.
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post #608 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 01:35 AM
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Believe me, I don't want to give up on the Z10k, I just love this little camera, I love the AC90 body style and it shoots awesome in full auto, at least in 2D so far only. But you might be right, I am comparing it to a professional camera that's full bit rate per lens (3DA1). For the Z10k I was using it in 3D each time in manual mode and have used a few of the scene settings, like 1,2, and 5 as I found those the best. WB, iris, focus I had in auto although I did set it to 5600k the last time I used it in 3D which is mostly what I have the 3DA1 set up for that works best for outdoors. I set up all 7 of the user modes, which are really handy. You know there are 3 hard buttons on the side and then 4 touch screen ones, I wish those could also include some other functions that are not included in the user list there, like media select would be nice, or 3D/2D mode or audio select. Oh well.

I still haven't bought Vegas Pro, I had some gear to get that was needed instead. I was able to get a short SBS rendered of some test footage from botanica the other day from the 3DA1. I backed the date up on machine and I got the trial to work again, but now I can't seem to get it to work as I tried it again yesterday. Not a big deal, I just wanted to see how the results looked from a SBS render from the 3DA1 and I am convinced that it's good enough, in fact, looks very much like whats coming raw from camera so I'm pretty impressed with it.

I've just ordered two full sets of macro screw on adapters for the 3DA1, so I'll have to try them out when they get here. I'm not expecting great quality as they're just screw on adapters not a full macro lens. There's a +10 adapter from Hoya that I want but they're about 85 each so I'll have to wait, I just got the cheap Vivitar set for now.

Getting back to the Z10k, I'll be taking it to botanica on the 15th as it's Kite Day for Father's Day and I'll probably not be shooting with the 3DA1, just the Z10k so I'll test out the 3D again on it. As long as lighting conditions are close I should have plenty of footage to compare it to by then.

Actually, and by no means do you have to do it, but would you be interested in testing some footage from my 3DA1 against your experience of what the Z10k outputs in 3D? I haven't used either of these cameras that long. Maybe I'm just crazy and making a mountain out of a mole hill or something confused.gif. I could provide you with a link to the files, it might take awhile to download them, my upload speed here is only about 1mb, run them overnight maybe. Just a few clips would probably be enough 3-5 mins. worth. I have some daylight shots if you have some too to do a semi direct comparison.

Mostly to me it just seems like a bit rate issue. I've seen it before in lower quality cameras. But maybe, you're right, it might just be a simple combination of settings to get the right look. The last time I used it I also increased the color gamma a few levels which helped a little. I had to do that on the 3DA1, as neutral looked very saturated and dull. When I made the adjustments it just completely lit up my screen. That might be the case with the Z10k, I just haven't found the right combination for it. For the 3DA1 test clips, you'd just have to set the production to SBS half, pair each set as stereoscopic, then do a final render. I did mine at 36 mbps.

The funny thing about the Z10k, is it has more bells and whistles than any camera I've seen before, in fact, considering the fact that it does 3D, it probably does. It shoots 3D, it shoots 60p, it has a 5.1 mic, it shoots in 24p and 60i in 3D, which I understand many of the early 3D cameras didn't, it doesn't shoot native 720, but 1080 60i can work. The JVC one might come close, but does it have all the menu options that the Z10k has? It has a 10x zoom, the 23x zoom in 2D is pretty good. I don't know if the extra zoom is digital or not, they didn't go overboard and give it a 1000x digital like some cameras. It also does LPCM if you need it. But yet they skimped on the bit rate. Why? Why? Why Panasonic? Like I said, I hope I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. That or it's just professional vs. pro sumer, which could likely be the case.

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post #609 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 07:26 AM
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Tom- I'm in the middle of a big editing project but would like to see your footage, a short clip showing detail, sharpness, and full proper color off that 3DA1. When time permits, I will compare with some clips I shot at California Adventures which is amazing AFTER I did the color correction in VegasPro, as compared to just right out of the camera. I want to get this project done before my next trip for 10 days so that is taking priority right now.

I'm pretty familiar with all the user functions on the Z10K but not so much the custom color configurations. I need to look into those. For correction I used the WFM, VS, and histogram to accurately adjust the image. Being a broadcast engineer by formal schooling, I know how to read those scopes like a cardiologist reads an EKG. smile.gif

As to your quandary on why Panasonic didn't offer higher bit rates, I can only guess it may have been cost of the processing. Just look at the price spread between the Z10K and the 3DA1. There is a reason for that difference. Plus, it's nice to get away with 45mbs SD cards and not have to use the 95mps cards or a P2 system for storage. Just guessing

In my world today, I compare the Z10K with my Sony TD10 and there is a huge image sharpness and detail clarity benefit on the Z10K and I know why. It has to do with 6 image sensors rather than two for 3D. The 3DA1 uses larger sensors, and larger glass which will aid in even higher clarity of the image. Then of course the higher bitrate. BUT, this benefit may not be obvious on a smaller screen. Each camera has it's own limits on it's top end. But a higher quality camera can look like crap is it isn't set up right either. A 3DA1 may look worse than a Sony TD10 if the 3DA1 wasn't properly white balanced for the outdoor or indoor color temperature.
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post #610 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, for sure one can adjust the image with the Vegas tools - what is great and what should be done anyway.

In addition the approach should be to create scene files that deliver a good base for that. It is worthwile to explore the settings in the scene file and come up with good settings that satisfy ones own expectation. Sure, you can measure the outcome of the camera too and optimize the scene files - and to some extend it can be done with tools like the Atomos Ninja Blade, what has both a wave form monitor but also a vectroscope.

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post #611 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 08:09 AM
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Some tech spec differences and similarities between the Z10K and the 3DA1:

Both use the same image sensor system, the 1/4.1 3MOS 2.01Megapixel full HD 1080 x 1920 pixel sensors.


The AG-3DA1 records in AVCHD PH mode, based on MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 High Profile, which is the latest video compression technology. With more than twice the compression efficiency of MPEG-2 (such as in HDV), AVCHD provides both high image quality and a low data rate. PH mode was developed by Panasonic exclusively for AVCCAM professional video production. Boasting 24 Mbps (average: 21 Mbps), which is the maximum bit rate for the AVCHD format, the AG-3DA1 records 1920 x 1080 full-pixel HD images.

For the Z10K-
2D: MPEG-4 AVC / H.264
3D: MPEG-4 MVC / H.264
Bit Rates MVC (3D) & 1080p60 (2D): 28 Mb/s
PH: 24 Mb/s
HA: 17 Mb/s
HE: 5 Mb/s


I cannot find any reference to higher 3D recording mode on the 3DA1 than PH mode which is used in both the 3DA1 and the Z10K.



Based on the above, it explains why Panasonic does not specify the higher bit rate SD card for the 3DA1 either. You can use the same cards as the Z10K.




Tom- can you point me to the reference you have that describes the 3DA1 recording bit rate that is higher than Panasonic PH mode. My information was pulled from the B&H website reprint of what Panasonic publishes.


If my spec reference is accurate, then I'm thinking your Z10K image quality just may benefit greatly with a simple calibration.




On a different level- the 3DP1 specs out a completely different camera head using a 1/3" 3CMOS x2 2.2Mpixel sensor that also uses larger glass to accommodate. In addition it does offer the higher bit rate compression and a different sampling. As such this camcorder cannot use the SDHC slower memory and must use the Panasonic P2 storage.
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post #612 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 08:19 AM
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Wolfgang- When I got my broadcast cameras, it took me two days to design the custom settings to yield "perfect" video and then store those to memory for future use. The scopes are good but I still needed to do color temperature matching using standard color temperature lights on a Macbeth chart. Finally, matching each color block on the chart in the edit suite with just camera controls I was able to get the perfect match. I set up three presets, one for 3200K, one for 5600K and one for 6800K I would have had one for 4500K too but my cameras only had 3 memories.
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post #613 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 10:09 AM
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Only the 3DP1 has higher bit rate utilizing the intra 100 mode which is 100 mbps per lens to independent P2 cards with 1/3" sensor. They use the 800 mb Ver. 1 cards if I remember reading correctly. I think they're compatible with the newer 1.2 gb ones too. It's also 10 bit 4:2:2 so that would be awesome to see as well as its 17x zoom. The TD300 uses a 35 mbps long gop mpeg2 onto dual SxS cards with 2 backup/relay card buses and a 1/2 inch Xmor senor. Between those two I would think the 3DP1 might be better but the Sony has the 1/2" sensor. Both of these are out of my budget anyway, but cool to talk about.

The 3DA1 is like you said about 21 mbps ABR, although when I check the properties on the files the average is just under 22 mbps. That's the biggest difference, is that they're not compressed, each eye gets close to 22 mbps. The lenses are a little bigger, I'm not sure how much bigger. The housing for them is probably twice the size as the Z10k. They're 43mm at the end which I have the Zunow wide angle attached. The Zunow widens out to 52mm adapter size when in use. I think I got all these specs just off the Panasonic site in the brochures. The 3DA1 doesn't shoot in lower bit rate mode, it's strictly PH mode. It does have the same gamma settings like HD NORM/LOW/HIGH/CINE LIKE D/ CINE LIKE V. But yeah the lenses are quite a bit bigger, that could be making a difference too, same sensor size at 1/4" with 3MOS.

Let me know if you have time at some point, I have some clips now I'd just have to move them to the server. I'd be interested in your settings on the Z10k for outdoor, especially in bright sun if you get something that works well. Post grading, not much I can do right now, I know there's a lot that can be done in that process, I was just looking at raw output right now but I'll leave that open as some potential improvement and balancing.

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post #614 of 614 Old 06-07-2014, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Wolfgang- When I got my broadcast cameras, it took me two days to design the custom settings to yield "perfect" video and then store those to memory for future use. The scopes are good but I still needed to do color temperature matching using standard color temperature lights on a Macbeth chart. Finally, matching each color block on the chart in the edit suite with just camera controls I was able to get the perfect match. I set up three presets, one for 3200K, one for 5600K and one for 6800K I would have had one for 4500K too but my cameras only had 3 memories.

Well I am not as perfect as you have done that here - but for the Z10K it is nice to use some scene files too.

Testcharts for later color correction are nice - but in some cases you may not find the time to use them really (event videos like wedding videos) - so I have my scene files and that is fine for me. To match the camera to my other TD10s is something that I do anyway in Vegas in the postproduction.

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