Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 06:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Shot some Halloween footage Fri. with the Z10k. Moved out of town about 3 months ago so have to travel now for everything going on there. They have a huge event on our street every year in a two block area, brings in thousands of kids and parents for about 5 hours. Homeowners there go all out on decorations, basically like a theme park. I got there a little late but managed to get some 3D shot with this camera. I wanted to break out the larger Pro 3DA1 but ran out of time. Hope to get some footage edited here soon and share. Viewed everything when I got back home, well it was dark so quality takes a huge hit there, but for the most part important areas are visible and it gives you that "in person" feel.

Low light performance could be better on this rig. Also with the Z10k, while I like the IS, has anyone else noticed that weird shifting of pixels? I know this is how it compensates for unwanted movement but it's a little distracting seeing that in the footage. I'm going to turn it off and see how well I can hold it steady.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 09:04 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Tom, don't use IS when on a tripod for pans and such. I think that is the only time I have seen the pixel wobble. Handheld it doesn't show up. Since monopod is not as rock stable as a tripod, I use IS with a monopod with satisfactory results.

ie: (My rule of thumb)

Hand held and monopod: Use IS
Tripod: Never use IS.
Don Landis is offline  
post #633 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 09:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Ditto to Don. IS is a no-no if you're on a tripod or with a Steadicam. Even hand held, you can sometimes get a kind of jerkiness when you first start a move. The IS system tries to keep a more or less static image stable, then "realizes" you actually do want to move. That may be what you're seeing.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #634 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 10:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
I did everything handheld though and it was pretty noticeable at times. I've been going back through my other 3D footage from the Z10k and I'm seeing it there too. I think I'll just turn it off and try and see how stable I can get it. I know that it's more noticeable in 3D mode because it shifts against the other lens, in 2D I don't notice it really. I've forgotten to turn it off a few times when I had it on the tripod and yes, that's a big no no, since it's already stable.

At some point down the road I'll probably get a shoulder mount for the 3DA1, since it's pretty hard to do anything hand held from it. I managed to shoot some hand held with it Sat at Botanica, surprisingly I got some steady shots, but it's also hard to operate convergence, focus and iris while hand held on it. Then I could just swap out for the Z10k if I already had a shoulder mount.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #635 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 10:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Hand held work with cameras as big as the Z10k and A1 would wear me out. I shoot most things on a tripod. I like my Steadicam/Blackbird stabilization system, but it's tiring, too. There's just no free lunch with this hobby.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #636 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 11:33 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Yeah, it wasn't anything important so I just did hand held. That and just too many people to trip over my tripod and dark. A monopod would work but I haven't picked one up yet.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #637 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 02:32 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
The Sony TD10 has a far superior OIS than the Z10K. I use it when I mount it fixed to me windshield for car cam. Looks great. Tom you are probably more steady with your shooting so the cam acts like it's mounted.

Joe- you whimp! You should have been raised on a Broadcast cam, weighing in at 25 pounds.
Don Landis is offline  
post #638 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 05:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
The Sony TD10 has a far superior OIS than the Z10K. I use it when I mount it fixed to me windshield for car cam. Looks great. Tom you are probably more steady with your shooting so the cam acts like it's mounted.

Joe- you whimp! You should have been raised on a Broadcast cam, weighing in at 25 pounds.
Yep, that's me. I shot projects with Betacam a few times, but always roped someone else into doing the camera work. The quality possible with these tiny modern day camcorders is amazing.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #639 of 682 Old 11-03-2014, 06:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
How's the low light performance on the Sony compared to the Z10k, Don, since you have both? From I can see, the Z10k isn't that great. Blacks look pretty grainy instead of a nice solid color. I had everything set up manual except for focusing and iris, I'm going to play around with settings some more and do more testing try and get rid of grainy low light issues. Maybe the lenses won't do it.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #640 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
How's the low light performance on the Sony compared to the Z10k, Don, since you have both? From I can see, the Z10k isn't that great. Blacks look pretty grainy instead of a nice solid color. I had everything set up manual except for focusing and iris, I'm going to play around with settings some more and do more testing try and get rid of grainy low light issues. Maybe the lenses won't do it.


The Sony is not better really. Maybe the Z10K is a little bit better then the Sony - and for sure not great in lowlight.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #641 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 04:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
I played around with settings for an hour with it hooked up to monitor and I couldn't get anything better in low light. The lenses aren't going to do it so it's up to post correction on this camera. The 3DA1 is about the same in low light so that leaves me without a good night 3D rig.

What about the TD1? Can anyone compare the Z10k to that in low light? Also, I see these are getting harder to buy now, can you get a Japan model with English language?

Edit: Ok, just read some of the TD1 thread. Not going to work for me. No 24 fps option and the full frame 3D is harder to edit, I remember you guys mentioning that. 1.2 lenses but if its 60 fps only, the Panasonic is probably just as good or better using 24 fps. 60 fps to 60 fps comparison might yield better on JVC. Oh, well.

Yeah, the Panasonic has 1.5 lenses compared to the Sony's 1.8, that's what the 3DA1 one is. I can't tell a huge difference between them though.

This line intentionally left blank.

Last edited by tomtastic; 11-04-2014 at 06:34 AM.
tomtastic is online now  
post #642 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 06:43 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 223
The JVC HMZ1 is the pro version of the TD1. It has 24p capability, but it's low-light performance isn't any better than other options - IMO no better than the Z10k.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #643 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 07:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
The JVC HMZ1 is the pro version of the TD1. It has 24p capability, but it's low-light performance isn't any better than other options - IMO no better than the Z10k.
Ok, that one's even harder to buy now and thanks for the honest opinion on it.

There just isn't that all in one camera that performs well across the board and has best options and handling. The 3DA1 is the only all in one that gets close from what I can see. It's just a beast to handle.

The Z10k has lots of potential if they made a ver2 of it. Better low light performance and I'd make the lens I.A. wider and put a regular lens hood on it with threaded lenses so you can put adapters and filters on it. Then have it record to separate cards in full bit rate like the 3DA1. That's really all it needs. If it was made it would make a formidable all in one 3D camera.

I don't get tired of holding it either. It does have some weight but you can bring it in close to your shoulder and balance it and off set some of the weight.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #644 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 08:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I played around with settings for an hour with it hooked up to monitor and I couldn't get anything better in low light. The lenses aren't going to do it so it's up to post correction on this camera. The 3DA1 is about the same in low light so that leaves me without a good night 3D rig.

What about the TD1? Can anyone compare the Z10k to that in low light? Also, I see these are getting harder to buy now, can you get a Japan model with English language?

Edit: Ok, just read some of the TD1 thread. Not going to work for me. No 24 fps option and the full frame 3D is harder to edit, I remember you guys mentioning that. 1.2 lenses but if its 60 fps only, the Panasonic is probably just as good or better using 24 fps. 60 fps to 60 fps comparison might yield better on JVC. Oh, well.

Yeah, the Panasonic has 1.5 lenses compared to the Sony's 1.8, that's what the 3DA1 one is. I can't tell a huge difference between them though.
Doesn't sound like you're interested in a JVC-TD1 at this time for your needs, but just so you know, there is a menu setting in the JVC-TD1 to change the language from Japanese to English. I have 4 of these now, since I really like them, take them underwater, and unfortunately believe that it may be many years before they come out with more 3D camcorders again. I've bought 2 from Japanese vendors. Be aware that they will often say they are new on Amazon or Ebay. They are not! When pressed on this, they will finally cop to the fact that they are store demos. The best way to buy them form Japan is through Ebay where you can buy a Square Trade Warranty with them even though used. Takes the worry out. A couple of months ago, I had one of my origional American bought ones completly fail. I called the official JVC in US place that does their warranty repairs- even though this was off warranty I planned to pay out of pocket. I was told that they could no longer be repaired as the parts were not available anymore. I called a couple of other places and was told the same thing. I was about to give up when I called a place in southern California, which I found online. They said that new parts were easily available and that they had repaired other TD1s. I sent it to them. There was a few week wait while they ordered the parts, which they did get, and the camera was repaired. Unfortunately, there's a lot of misinformation out there.

Last edited by Barry C; 11-04-2014 at 08:52 AM.
Barry C is offline  
post #645 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Well, same here. I got 3 Sony TD1 and one Panasonic Z10K - but that should be enough.

In terms of lowlight issue you will not see a better picture, given the limited size of the sensors used in all of this cameras.

What one could do is to use cameras like the GH4 or even better the Sony A7s combined with a side-by-side or even better beamsplitter rig to overcome that. Especially the A7s has a great lowlight behaviour - but you end up with a more complex equipment and higher costs.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #646 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 08:53 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
How's the low light performance on the Sony compared to the Z10k, Don, since you have both? From I can see, the Z10k isn't that great. Blacks look pretty grainy instead of a nice solid color. I had everything set up manual except for focusing and iris, I'm going to play around with settings some more and do more testing try and get rid of grainy low light issues. Maybe the lenses won't do it.
Blacks are pretty solid and low noise on the Sony TD10. Blacks on the Z10K can be shot with good solid , no noise, but you will need to compliment with some highlights such as bright lights in the scene for both.

The trick is to shut off your auto exposure, auto iris, auto focus, and use manual and adjust everything in manual mode for low light level shooting. With this procedure, like in any other camera, you will have control, but sacrifice run and gun quick shooting.

Keep in mind that if all electronics equal, a 3 chip camera requires more light for the same image exposure as a single chip. Advantage of a 3 chip camera is your chroma edge definition is superior. So, yes, the Z10K being a 3 Chip camera will be less in low light than the same CMOS single chip camera. If you get a Broadcast camera with larger imagers, even 3 chip per camera, then it will be more light sensitive, but cost considerably more too.

Only time I get concerned about this is shooting at night, outside, for stuff like fireworks and water light shows.

California Adventure at Disneyland World of Color was shot with my Z10K and once we get past the opening shots, the blacks were pretty good, IMO. Equal to similar stuff I shot earlier at Disney World with twin TD10's I say once we get past the opening because I mistakenly let You Tube do one of their auto correct processes which made the black night sky turn gray. That was not the Z10K that did that. I had everything set up ahead on the camera for manual so once into the program you can see the true black sky. From my experience that is about as good as the Z10K gets for night shooting.


Hope this helps, Tom.
Don Landis is offline  
post #647 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 09:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Ok, that one's even harder to buy now and thanks for the honest opinion on it.

There just isn't that all in one camera that performs well across the board and has best options and handling. The 3DA1 is the only all in one that gets close from what I can see. It's just a beast to handle.

The Z10k has lots of potential if they made a ver2 of it. Better low light performance and I'd make the lens I.A. wider and put a regular lens hood on it with threaded lenses so you can put adapters and filters on it. Then have it record to separate cards in full bit rate like the 3DA1. That's really all it needs. If it was made it would make a formidable all in one 3D camera.

I don't get tired of holding it either. It does have some weight but you can bring it in close to your shoulder and balance it and off set some of the weight.
Of course, you can get auxiliary wide angle lenses and close-up adapters for the Z10k, from Cyclopital3D. They're multi-element lenses and don't degrade the image significantly. They also make a stereo base extender and accessories to add filters. Personally, I like the native IA distance of the Z10k for most things, and it's a much wider angle lens than I have on either my TD1 or HMZ1. If the Z10k's IA were much wider, you'd have issues with closer objects. Nothing you can do about the bitrate, of course. I can definitely see a difference between the low and high bitrate modes of the JVCs. 34 mbps is enough for some very detailed footage that holds up well in editing. But if you don't like the native IA of the Z10k, you'd have a fit with the JVCs or the Sonys (TD10,20,30). They're designed more for close work, with a very narrow IA.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #648 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 09:40 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
Of course, you can get auxiliary wide angle lenses and close-up adapters for the Z10k, from Cyclopital3D. They're multi-element lenses and don't degrade the image significantly. They also make a stereo base extender and accessories to add filters. Personally, I like the native IA distance of the Z10k for most things, and it's a much wider angle lens than I have on either my TD1 or HMZ1. If the Z10k's IA were much wider, you'd have issues with closer objects. Nothing you can do about the bitrate, of course. I can definitely see a difference between the low and high bitrate modes of the JVCs. 34 mbps is enough for some very detailed footage that holds up well in editing. But if you don't like the native IA of the Z10k, you'd have a fit with the JVCs or the Sonys (TD10,20,30). They're designed more for close work, with a very narrow IA.
Spot on Joe! I love the Cyclopital WA and it stays on my Z10K all the time. Once in awhile I remove it in the field and grab a couple shots at full telephoto, but usually I leave it on. I also bought a metal 1:1 threaded ring for filters for it. The reason is I didn't like the plastic threads, so adding the metal one and permanently leaving it on allows frequent changing filters without wearing out the plastic threads on the Cyclopital WA adapter.

I don't worry anymore about the IA. I think it will be a waste of money to make a camcorder with wider IA than these currently offer for the very reason you stated. It's much better to get a bench and a pair of DSLR's. Now you can have a wide range of IA plus a whole compliment of lenses. If doing time lapse with DSLR you will need a sync device so you'll have to make sure what DSLR you buy will have a sync device that is compatible. I can't do time lapse with mine since I don't use a sync with my DSLR cameras. I recall Frank who used to post here was the house expert on these systems.
Don Landis is offline  
post #649 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 11:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
I don't worry anymore about the IA. I think it will be a waste of money to make a camcorder with wider IA than these currently offer for the very reason you stated. It's much better to get a bench and a pair of DSLR's. Now you can have a wide range of IA plus a whole compliment of lenses. If doing time lapse with DSLR you will need a sync device so you'll have to make sure what DSLR you buy will have a sync device that is compatible. I can't do time lapse with mine since I don't use a sync with my DSLR cameras. I recall Frank who used to post here was the house expert on these systems.
My view on narrow I.A. vs wider, is that it just depends on subject distance. If you're shooting something up close you need to go narrow, greater distance requires larger I.A. A fixed I.A. like in these all in one's is inherently flawed. They will have their sweet spot but if you get them out of it, too close or too far, they're useless for 3D. That's why the pros use the mirror rig, because it's adjustable or a parallel setup for greater distances. But based on what's available I think I have the best option which is the 3DA1 with the WA kit, so 2 ft up to 40 or 50 feet. The Z10k is about 2 feet to 15, not nearly as effective.

I'll probably have to just move to dual camera setups to get what I want, I don't see them improving this lineup as they're not releasing any new 3D camcorders. I'm just trying to decide what cameras to go with.

Edit: I should say it's one reason pros use the mirror rig, the other is to use better glass and imaging and the larger cameras get in the way.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #650 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 12:45 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
No doubt the mirror rig has greater 3D range with larger format cameras. But I would not sacrifice the simplicity of a twin side by side rig with my Z10K mounted in the center for a simpler to align and shoot in the field system. Then for two POV 3D, I can set up a second tripod and have 2 3D POV for an interview dialog. Use the Z10K for all the close up stuff and the twin rig for the scenery.

If you decide to go with the twin side by side DSLR or two video cameras. You will want to be sure you do your homework on sync systems that are compatible with the cameras before buying. If you can do without live lens zoom and time lapse, you can get away with a clap board manual sync and forget about the sync electronics. Most of the time I just sync with the audio waveforms in post. Good enough except for high speed. Syncing stills without a shutter sync is a matter of luck; get a a sync box if you need to do 3D stills with a twin rig.

I actually have three twin rigs-
Two Sony TD10's with a Lanc sync box
Two NEX5n DSLR cameras for wide angle work
Two Nabi sport cameras with underwater housings and very wide lenses. These can mount 65MM IA

My IA benches range from 65mm to 1 Meter.

If you're serious about syncing, both Wolfgang and I have sources who make the equipment.
Don Landis is offline  
post #651 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 01:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Right, I like having the portable and easy to use all in one and I think for every 3D enthusiast as well as professional I think there is a place for them.

I do want to have gen lock capability which is why I'm thinking about just using a second Z10k and shoot in 2D on both (left lens only). It has the 3.5mm plugs for that, plus I already have one, just need a second. That way I can rec, zoom, adjust iris and convergence in sync.

Low light isn't great but it's a small sensor so can't expect great results there. I'll step up to something better later on. I'll loose an inch or so of I.A. range because of the wider lens housing but I think it has about 8 inches total so that should be good from 0-5 or 6 inches. I'll build a simple SbS rig myself for greater distances. What I can't do right now is macro and distance and I want to be able to work with both.

The Z10k shoots great 2D video so having the full 24 mbps output for left and right in this setup should be pretty solid with the 3DA1.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #652 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 05:59 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
The Z10K does not use Lanc control for the remote. It uses the pro voltage analog controllers that plug into those remote jacks. I think Varizoom makes a good one for the Z10K under $500 last I saw. I have no idea how you would sync two of these cameraas to one Varizoom controller. Don't believe it is possible with this type of remote controller. You might be able to move the zoom of two cameras at the same time with a voltage splitter amp but I doubt they would track together even if both started from the same starting point. I have those controllers here for Sony and JVC cameras made by Sony but not for Panasonic standard so I can't even experiment. The connector is a 10 pin canon type that plugs into my lens.

Genlock is a good idea but the Z10K doesn't have genlock input either. You could genlock other cameras, probably your 3DA1 has it and it will then genlock to your Z10K as a slave with the composite video output from the Z10K as a master sync. This is for video timing. The sync I was referring to is control, not video framing. Unfortunately, for 3D your 2 cameras must match and that won't be with a Z10K and 3DA1. You'd drive yourself crazy trying to match the image between these two on a bench.
Don Landis is offline  
post #653 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 06:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
The Z10K does not use Lanc control for the remote. It uses the pro voltage analog controllers that plug into those remote jacks. I think Varizoom makes a good one for the Z10K under $500 last I saw. I have no idea how you would sync two of these cameraas to one Varizoom controller. Don't believe it is possible with this type of remote controller. You might be able to move the zoom of two cameras at the same time with a voltage splitter amp but I doubt they would track together even if both started from the same starting point. I have those controllers here for Sony and JVC cameras made by Sony but not for Panasonic standard so I can't even experiment. The connector is a 10 pin canon type that plugs into my lens.

Genlock is a good idea but the Z10K doesn't have genlock input either. You could genlock other cameras, probably your 3DA1 has it and it will then genlock to your Z10K as a slave with the composite video output from the Z10K as a master sync. This is for video timing. The sync I was referring to is control, not video framing. Unfortunately, for 3D your 2 cameras must match and that won't be with a Z10K and 3DA1. You'd drive yourself crazy trying to match the image between these two on a bench.
I've got a zoom controller already and I think, in theory it should work with a splitter for the second unit for simultaneous control of rec/pause, zoom and iris/focus. Actually I don't need convergence control since that is done manually at the camera positioning. I used the term gen lock loosely, it's more of a zoom controller function.

I guess I can test it with the 3DA1 and see if it works, of course I won't be using it in that setup, different rigs and all.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #654 of 682 Old 11-04-2014, 08:36 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
I think you can get simultaneous control but not synchronized control on the zoom. Because of this, it will drive you nuts getting the same zoom position on each lens. The beauty of the digital LANC is that the zoom syncs on the twin cameras. But I have not tried it, just my guess. I'll be pleasantly surprised if you report it works. The same goes for the focus. My controller is pure mechanical for focus on my broadcast rig, using a speedometer cable driving a pinion gear on the lens rack. I believe the Z10K Varizoom is servo motor like the zoom.
In worst case, the simultaneous control that will work is the record stop button. I'm pretty sure that will work and if you can genlock then at least your video will be spot on for sync on each frame start but not clip start. The LANC controllers don't even sync perfectly on clip or frame but they are very close. I think the unit Wolfgang uses is a bit more accurate than the one I have. Of course that has never been a real problem for me anyway.
Don Landis is offline  
post #655 of 682 Old 11-05-2014, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 16
For my ste-fra-lanc and two TD10 units, zoom is fine if it is controlled with that controller. That can work. But as said, there is not such a controller for two Z10K units, and they do not have genlock either.


The potential of the Z10K in lowlight can be extended a little bit if one uses the internal profiles that can be developed for that camcorder - with the tendency to shoot a flat luminance curve. But be aware that this requires some grading in the postpro, what has limitations with an 8bit 4:2:0 codec. One could try to extend that because if you use an Atomos Ninja Blade and record from the HDMI interface, you get at least 8bit 4:2:2 with side-by-side half (what is still fine for a lot of applicatons).

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #656 of 682 Old 11-05-2014, 05:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 92
I take it you're referring to one camera in 3D for the SbS HDMI output. I would think any gain made by the uncompressed HDMI would be lost with half resolution output restriction there. I would want full frame to start with. It would work with two Ninja's for my dual camera setup, start/stop still need syncing.

I'll find out soon enough if the controller will work. If not, like you said Don, clapper boards have worked for a long time. Since you can match audio and visual cues it should be pretty close. Audio can still be off by as much as a 1/30th, so longer clips could get out of sync, have to match audio and video spot on to start with in Vegas.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is online now  
post #657 of 682 Old 11-05-2014, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I also have here two Atomos units (one Ninja 2 and one Ninja Blade), that I could run with my two Sony TD10. The TD10 will deliver a clean HDMI out too during the recording, as far as I remember. And the two TD10 are paired too.

But I do not have two Z10K - since there is also no controller for that. So one idea that was discussed some time ago in the internet was to use one Z10K and one Atomos recorder - and record as sbs-half. It was a long discussion if you loose really something and as far as I see the discussion did not end up with a clear solution.

On the one side you have the improvement by a professional codec like ProRes or DNxHD with 4:2:2 (10 bit does not help since the camera deliveres 8bit only, and it makes no sense to fill up the 2 additional bits with zeros only) - what can be a great advantage if you wish to make stronger color or luma corrections, compared to the internal MVC recording.

On the other side you miss resolution - and that is the quesition if that is important really. For sure not on an HDTV with maybe up to 50 inch - and for sure not if you produce for a television station that will send anyway in sbs-half (but they like the better color sampling in 4:2:2).

To capture two 1080 24p streams from a Z10K would be great - but it requires other hardware. There has been a solution from Blackmagic to do that, as far as I remember - and there was also the suggestion to Atomos to implement such a function in the upcoming Shogun (what they will not do since the market is too small, I assume).

So it may depend what you want to do with the footage.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #658 of 682 Old 11-05-2014, 08:06 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I take it you're referring to one camera in 3D for the SbS HDMI output. I would think any gain made by the uncompressed HDMI would be lost with half resolution output restriction there. I would want full frame to start with. It would work with two Ninja's for my dual camera setup, start/stop still need syncing.

I'll find out soon enough if the controller will work. If not, like you said Don, clapper boards have worked for a long time. Since you can match audio and visual cues it should be pretty close. Audio can still be off by as much as a 1/30th, so longer clips could get out of sync, have to match audio and video spot on to start with in Vegas.
Tom, I have had excellent clap board sync for clip length of up to 45-60 minute long recordings of stage shows and performances. I roll both cameras, then clapboard, the show starts. before pausing the cameras, I do another clap board to verify. In post, I line up the clips to the first pulse on the audio track, trim off the leaders. Then go to the end of the clips and see that the pulses of audio for clap board still line up. Never had a problem. AS some have measured, however, the drift of frame starts will vary but that just casues some 3D blurriness when trying to record high speed action. Most of my work doesn't require that. In fact none of it does. If you have cameras that have genlock, that frame start drift can be eliminated.

Even my new cheap Nabi cameras are spot on for clip length sync, but I only tested those to 8 minutes long clips. I plan to roll cameras on those for about 30 minutes during snorkeling in a couple weeks. No clapboard underwater but I'll just tap the rig for sound which should be good enough.
Don Landis is offline  
post #659 of 682 Old 11-05-2014, 08:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Even my new cheap Nabi cameras are spot on for clip length sync, but I only tested those to 8 minutes long clips. I plan to roll cameras on those for about 30 minutes during snorkeling in a couple weeks. No clapboard underwater but I'll just tap the rig for sound which should be good enough.
Don, I'm looking forward to seeing some of the snorkeling video you come up with with that set up.
Today, Amazon is supposed to deliver my 3D Gopro housing and cable. I bought another +3 over the weekend, as they are now discounted due to the 4s coming out. I think I'll take it out and try some 50' to 100+ yard shots with it, stereoscopicly enhance it in Edius, and see how it looks. Hope to be able to use it for skiing and underwater use.
Barry C is offline  
post #660 of 682 Old 11-05-2014, 09:11 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 210
I've been trying to get in the pool with mine. I have yet to test the UW 3D. I need to get to it this week. Been waiting for warm front and sunny combined with no other distractions. For the past 5 weeks I kept saying, maybe tomorrow and now time is short.

Anyway, FYI- I sold out all my positions in GoPro stock when it broke $93 a share and made some really great returns over the summer. It's getting so close to the lockup expiration now, I'm afraid to get back in. The stock is still in the low 80's and based on it's earnings should be no higher than $40. Been a crazy ride. I do hear the new model is selling out at $499 too. I think that is crazy but they have some great marketing and have a cult like following now, often compared to the iphone icon.

What is the center to center IA on your GoPro Housing?
Don Landis is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 3D Source Components

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off