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post #661 of 680 Old 11-05-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post
I also have here two Atomos units (one Ninja 2 and one Ninja Blade), that I could run with my two Sony TD10. The TD10 will deliver a clean HDMI out too during the recording, as far as I remember. And the two TD10 are paired too.

But I do not have two Z10K - since there is also no controller for that. So one idea that was discussed some time ago in the internet was to use one Z10K and one Atomos recorder - and record as sbs-half. It was a long discussion if you loose really something and as far as I see the discussion did not end up with a clear solution.

On the one side you have the improvement by a professional codec like ProRes or DNxHD with 4:2:2 (10 bit does not help since the camera deliveres 8bit only, and it makes no sense to fill up the 2 additional bits with zeros only) - what can be a great advantage if you wish to make stronger color or luma corrections, compared to the internal MVC recording.

On the other side you miss resolution - and that is the quesition if that is important really. For sure not on an HDTV with maybe up to 50 inch - and for sure not if you produce for a television station that will send anyway in sbs-half (but they like the better color sampling in 4:2:2).

To capture two 1080 24p streams from a Z10K would be great - but it requires other hardware. There has been a solution from Blackmagic to do that, as far as I remember - and there was also the suggestion to Atomos to implement such a function in the upcoming Shogun (what they will not do since the market is too small, I assume).

So it may depend what you want to do with the footage.
That's what I was thinking, whatever you gain is lost with cutting down the resolution. But as far as it goes for me, I just view on a passive screen so I would benefit from it, but not for active screens. So if Blu ray is the desired output, it won't do any good.

Anyway getting back to a zoom controller sync option, that's a no go according to the manufacturer, they've tried it and it causes lots of problems. I'm still going to try it when I get the cables in, just to see what it does. Really all I need is start/stop sync. Zoom and focus would be hard in both mirror/parallel setups. I don't usually see any zooming when watching footage from productions that use them anyway. And if all else fails, I can use a clapper.

Edit: There's also the IR remote, if I go with two Z10k's. That might be the easiest in combination with clapper board. In reading up on this, most professional rigs use gen locking. I've read that it's not possible to sync in post if they're not in sync to start with. Even a single frame can cause problems that can ruin your shot.

This is the article that I've read among others:
http://realvision.ae/blog/2010/05/im...or-3d-cameras/

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post #662 of 680 Old 11-05-2014, 12:52 PM
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Tom, I made an IR remote for my Z10k. The problem with the wireless is its sensor is near the microphone and aimed forward so it was not reliable from behind. I wanted to control the zoom and start stop when lifting my Z10K up high on a monopod to get it above crowds. I bought one of the spare remotes on ebay for a couple bucks and took it apart. Unsoldered the IR LED from the board and put it on a 6 ft extension cable. Then attached some velcro and now I just stick the IR LED under the mic on the camera and attached the remote to my Monopod along with a little LCD HDMI screen. I made a similar one for my TD10 as well. You might try to feed two IR LEDs off one controller and see if you can do a start stop. I still think the zoom will not be in sync though.
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post #663 of 680 Old 11-05-2014, 06:57 PM
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I've been trying to get in the pool with mine. I have yet to test the UW 3D. I need to get to it this week. Been waiting for warm front and sunny combined with no other distractions. For the past 5 weeks I kept saying, maybe tomorrow and now time is short.

Anyway, FYI- I sold out all my positions in GoPro stock when it broke $93 a share and made some really great returns over the summer. It's getting so close to the lockup expiration now, I'm afraid to get back in. The stock is still in the low 80's and based on it's earnings should be no higher than $40. Been a crazy ride. I do hear the new model is selling out at $499 too. I think that is crazy but they have some great marketing and have a cult like following now, often compared to the iphone icon.

What is the center to center IA on your GoPro Housing?
Well, Amazon delivered the Gopro 3D housing setup this afternoon. Here's some preliminary info. The IA is 1 & 5/16ths. This, by the way, is exactly the same as the JVC- TD1. I haven't
got a chance to shoot any test clips yet, but will do so tomorrow. I had a couple of phone conversations with their excellent customer support people. Not in India- very refreshingâ˜ș

So, here's the really weird part. Had to talk to Gopro support since I couldn't believe this should be happening. When the cameras are synced with the cable and in the housing, they are both powered on simultaneously with either the wifi remote or the physical power button on the housing. There is only 1 power button on the right of the housing since the right camera is the primary one. HOWEVER, when you push the button, or remote to turn them off, only the right/primary camera shuts off. To turn off the left camera, you have to open the housing, remove the left camera and push the button. When synced with the cable, only the right camera wifi is active also. I told them that a firmware update is badly needed here. This 3D no love red headed stepchild thing just never ends. Ah, but we're a tough lot, used to abuse. Don, congrats on that stock trade. Well done! When the public, with the millions of 3D buyers out there, finds out about this issue, the stock will tank for sure- lol!

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post #664 of 680 Old 11-05-2014, 07:51 PM
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For the price of that 3D housing, it should come fully supported. As it sits if I had two Go Pro's, which I may at some point to fill the action cam roll, I would not buy it unless that was fixed.

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post #665 of 680 Old 11-05-2014, 08:16 PM
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I did get to do my first pool test of the twin Nabi system today.

To keep the threads topics clean, I posted it here:

Best Newbie 3D Camcorder


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Not in India- very refreshingâ˜ș
Barry, So you speak surfer dude instead? I've met those guys at CES and they are all really a cool bunch. I hope all this new wealth doesn't change them.

For what little time I get these days underwater, the twin Nabi budget is all I could justify. This venture to Castaway Key Disney UW theme park with the grandkids may be the only place I will use it.

I thought about doing another deep 2 man sub trip sometime and mounting this Nabi rig on the outside aimed back at me inside the sub. I know the sub guys in Grand Cayman were pretty cool with stuff like that a few years ago. I don't know if the Nabi goes deeper than a hundred feet but that's OK. I wonder if the remote control works through water? I could test that with my old betacam housing in the pool I suppose.
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post #666 of 680 Old 11-05-2014, 09:20 PM
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For the price of that 3D housing, it should come fully supported. As it sits if I had two Go Pro's, which I may at some point to fill the action cam roll, I would not buy it unless that was fixed.
It sure surprised me! Not a deal breaker, but not what you'd expect from a company like Gopro. But, like I said, we 3D people are used to getting no respect.
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post #667 of 680 Old 11-06-2014, 02:31 AM - Thread Starter
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That's what I was thinking, whatever you gain is lost with cutting down the resolution.


Well, it depends what you intend to do.


Imagine that you produce s3D for a broadcast station. Then they may want to have footage with 4:2:2 color sampling - but will accept 4:2:0 only for specific footage (for example they did that for some diving videos in cases that I know). The reason why they want to have 4:2:2 is simple the greater reserve you will have to perform luma and color corrections.


But they will send the footage anyway as side-by-side half only via cable or satellite - so the loss of resolution will not matter for them because the delivery format to the televison customer is sbs-half anyway.


And the other question is - do we really think that a consumer codec AVCHD/MVC is better then a professional codec like ProRes or DNxHD? I do not think so. Honestly, I also see in the postproduction a lot of blocking and errors when I edit Z10K footage that was recorded with MVC. To my opinion professional codecs has here also some advantages.


And the side-by-side half picture is not really much worser compared with a 3D-Blu-ray in the perception if you use a 50inch 3D-Plasma as I do. So I really ask myself if it is not the better choice to use Atomos units with the Z10K, if you are aiming for a better picture quality in the final movie.

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post #668 of 680 Old 11-06-2014, 09:52 AM
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Raw AVCHD footage out of the Z10k looks better than what was transmitted over 3net after compression, but no where near Blu ray of course. The problem will be that going to Blu ray, you'll have to enlarge the output back to 1080p frames. That right there would keep me from doing it. If SbS was the desired output, then it would work great.

I'm curious, I've read at least one other place that mentioned that you could get SbS output from the HDMI, does that automatically put it into the correct format when it goes thru HDMI? I thought it was output in full frame. That's the way the 3DA1 works.

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post #669 of 680 Old 11-06-2014, 03:04 PM
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For the price of that 3D housing, it should come fully supported. As it sits if I had two Go Pro's, which I may at some point to fill the action cam roll, I would not buy it unless that was fixed.
Happy to report that there is a new Gopro firmware update which I installed and now both cameras turn on and off together just fine.
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post #670 of 680 Old 11-07-2014, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Raw AVCHD footage out of the Z10k looks better than what was transmitted over 3net after compression, but no where near Blu ray of course. The problem will be that going to Blu ray, you'll have to enlarge the output back to 1080p frames.

I think the MVC is not bad - but as said: I can see some limitations on the editing place. But it is fine for a lot of targets - and for Blu-ray I would use 1080 24p anyway.


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I'm curious, I've read at least one other place that mentioned that you could get SbS output from the HDMI, does that automatically put it into the correct format when it goes thru HDMI? I thought it was output in full frame. That's the way the 3DA1 works.

I do not have the camera with me, but for sure you can get the sbs-half output if you use a Ninja2/Ninja Blade. But I am not sure if it is detected automatically at the moment.

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post #671 of 680 Old 11-07-2014, 08:52 AM
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I'd be interested in some test footage of the uncompresssed HDMI output if you have both the Atomos and the Z10k.

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post #672 of 680 Old 11-08-2014, 08:15 AM
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I'm trying to find the documentation on FRIM, can't seem to locate that. The ?'s I have are for Vegas Pro workflow.
Sorry i am asking but do you mean there is a workflow for sony vegas? Is there an helpfull link? Thank you
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post #673 of 680 Old 11-10-2014, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd be interested in some test footage of the uncompresssed HDMI output if you have both the Atomos and the Z10k.

That could be an issue - given the huge size of these files. How to transfer that?

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post #674 of 680 Old 11-10-2014, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry i am asking but do you mean there is a workflow for sony vegas? Is there an helpfull link? Thank you
In Vegas you find the help file - what is not so bad but has some good hints. Maybe a point to start with?

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post #675 of 680 Old 11-12-2014, 11:31 AM
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In Vegas you find the help file - what is not so bad but has some good hints. Maybe a point to start with?
I have found a pdf file from Sony Vegas with 600 pages and as you ve said it had all the help i was needed. When i was imported the file in timeline once it had two video streams and the other it had only one and i was confused.

But if you can help me now: i am trying to write a Blu-Ray disc. I followed your advice that it has to be 1920x1080 and 24p (the same is the video). I thought i wroteburnt it but it doesnt do nothing. When i insert the disc it says that it is blank but i am certain that i have wrote a small video of 3 minutes footage. So my question is about Blu Ray disc: does it have to be Blu-Ray 3D Disc to write footage from Panasonic Z10K???? Mine discs are BD-RE. And if it has to be only 3D Disc the solution is to write a BD-RE with SBS?
And one last question: i have a rewritable disc. Can i write it as "Blu-Ray Video Disc" and rewrite it later? Thank you and i am sorry for my "amateurness"
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post #676 of 680 Old 11-17-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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For sure you can use BD-RE, and for sure you can re-write them later. You are also able to write it to an ISO to the harddrive, that could be burned later to a BD-R/RE
You can do that both rom Vegas but also from the DVDA6.

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post #677 of 680 Old 11-18-2014, 06:05 PM
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I think the MVC is not bad - but as said: I can see some limitations on the editing place. But it is fine for a lot of targets - and for Blu-ray I would use 1080 24p anyway.





I do not have the camera with me, but for sure you can get the sbs-half output if you use a Ninja2/Ninja Blade. But I am not sure if it is detected automatically at the moment.
Ok, to answer my own question, just found in the manual, it does limit thru HDMI to SbS half resolution, unlike the 3DA1. The 3DA1 has limits on frame rate though. Only 1080 24p and 720 60p work thru HDMI output. The Z10k I got 1080i60 to work. Strange. The Z10k was deliberately restricted so you can't get higher bit rate than MVC or full resolution with uncompressed HDMI.

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post #678 of 680 Old 11-19-2014, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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That is not exactly what happens here. You get a 1080 24p packed frame that is bedded in a 60i output frage. That is why Atomos units have to recreate the 1080 24p frame rate when you set the camera to 1080 24p and record the Atomos units using the hdmi output. That is the 3:2 pulldown that they have to perform here (from 60i to 24p back).

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post #679 of 680 Old 11-19-2014, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
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That is not exactly what happens here. You get a 1080 24p packed frame that is bedded in a 60i output frage. That is why Atomos units have to recreate the 1080 24p frame rate when you set the camera to 1080 24p and record the Atomos units using the hdmi output. That is the 3:2 pulldown that they have to perform here (from 60i to 24p back).
That sounds even worse. The internal AVCHD compression might be the best output after all.

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post #680 of 680 Old 11-20-2014, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
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No, that is not worse - that is the typical way what camcorder deliver from their hdmi output. But that is well known to Atomos - and the 3:2 pulldown is a proofed and stable way to reconstruct the 24 footage (and that works without losses or errors).

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