Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder - Page 8 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 680 Old 03-12-2012, 06:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 141
As planned, I shot a big St. Patrick's day parade in 3D using the Z10000. I had full access to the parade route, so this was an example of a run and gun video, not of an event recorded from one position. I did not have to stay behind any crowds, so the only hazards (and there were not a few) were people on foot occasionally crossing in front of me, inlcuding finished parade participants. This is no big deal for 2D, but it ruins the shot for 3D when someone steps right in front of the camera even for a short moment.

That's why we edit.

For this type of video it is not possible to change settings on the fly - events are happening too fast. So, I relied on auto WB and auto focus. Most importantly, I relied on auto convergence. I used the 2D viewfinder - thus relying on the camera's report on the appropriate distances for comfortable 3D and my own experience. Bright sun is not the setting to watch 3D or mix mode; but I can pretty much visualize depth now.

I did fix the shutter at 1/120th because of the bright light and lack of ND - this has got to be fixed, and soon. I controlled the iris manually to take into account the lighting conditions, which were horrendous - the sun was behind the marchers, and very bright and harsh.

I used a shoulder strap purloined from an old Sony DSLR, and in the 3 hours of shooting I experienced no sore arms and was also able to hold the camera steadier than my consumer camcorders - the heavier weight helped, along with using two hands. The handle and 90-degree-capable viewfinder made low-viewpoint shots easy and steady. Low-viewpoint shots are especially effective in 3D. Only one person (not sober) asked what station I worked for).

I uploaded the usual 108030p 1/2-frame 3D version to Youtube. This is for viewing the 3D. To get the best of both, you need the original MVC 108060i 28Mbps, but I have no place to upload that.




The workflow was to edit in HD Writer - trimming clips and merging, so as to lose absolutely no quality. I had 10GB's of clips. The 3D 1/2-frame version was produced using Vegas Pro, at 20Mbps 108030p. The rendering to 108030p 1/2-frame of the 21-minute MVC video took 55 minutes on my CUDA-equipped, i5-processor Windows machine.

Video surprises:

1. Bubbles were on hand - my favorite 3D effect.

2. One parade group was supposed to turn hard right to leave the route but instead ploughed straight ahead. They thus marched right through me, as you will see. Neat 3D from that, as I was taking a ground-view shot.

Otherwise: fifes, drums, politicians, rifles, kilts, princesses of all ages, red and yellow fire trucks, clowns, and armies of all eras, and lots of green.
markr041 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 680 Old 03-12-2012, 04:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Here is the abbreviated version, highlighting the 3D (<4minutes):

http://youtu.be/TEVZRJTMuqk?hd=1
markr041 is offline  
post #213 of 680 Old 03-12-2012, 04:36 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Mark- Looks like you did a bit of moving around- Made for a nice collection of shots for the video!

But the first thing I don't understand is when did they change St. Patrick's Day to March 10th? It's always been on March 17th.


Anyway, have to ask if that Panasonic camera has a setting called Black stretch? It looks as if your blacks were at somewhere between 9 and 11 IRE. This will give your video a softer look. If you can find a way to pull the Black level down just a tad, I think it would do wonders for your overall image quality, especially in bright sun. Absent a black stretch setting adjustment try the AES setting and experiment with a more negative setting in bright light.

Another pro trick for public events is to get a neck lanyard and attach your own Press badge. Go to a print shop and have it laminated with your business card and photo on one side and in big BOLD letters either MEDIA or PRESS on the other side. This will get you through most barricades and police. That will often get you a pass when security is low. But be forewarned, some events require all media to register and they will give you their press passes and media kits.
Don Landis is offline  
post #214 of 680 Old 03-12-2012, 04:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Thanks, Don. I was puzzled by the date too.

The Z10000 has all of the adjustments of Panasonic's pro cameras - gammas, knees, and "pedestal", which I think varies the base black IRE. There are six canned settings called scenes. The one I used is called 'HD Video', the default. The one I want to try is 'Cinema D', which is supposed to have the greatest dynamic range.

I wish it were a cloudy day during the parade - the sunlight was harsh and marchers in shadows.
markr041 is offline  
post #215 of 680 Old 03-12-2012, 08:56 PM
Newbie
 
j michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Loved the bubbles. Thanks for posting your footage.
j michael is offline  
post #216 of 680 Old 03-12-2012, 11:32 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Mark- Pedestal is the IRE black setting. For HD you can use 0 IRE and for SD stick with 7.5. Black stretch is different and it is usually only on broadcast cameras; but, I wasn't sure about Panasonic.

If you can live feed your camera to your computer with Vegas scopes launched, you could set up a test color chart and set the gamma and knee for a type of black stretch custom setting. I wouldn't mess with those unless you have a scope on the output. Hint- all you need for this is a composite video output and a video input on your computer. Don't need HDMI capture for this.

The sun angle never seems to cooperate does it? Actually, I don't recall ever being on a shoot where everything was perfect.
Don Landis is offline  
post #217 of 680 Old 03-19-2012, 04:14 AM
Member
 
andrey.g.smolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: St.Petersburg
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It is iteresting to see the test Z10000 for 1080 24p mode. I want check that 24p mode really (single strobe of exposition) is not device deinterlace algorithm.

Concerning "progressive mode". For stereo the good shape of object and CORRECT POSITION of boundary of objects (correct parallax) plays the key role. For interlace mode we often have erode shape (for object that have velocity) and as result have incorrect position of shape (Often the width of erode shape is more then parralax). Therefore the interlace mode for the PROFESSIONAL dynamic STEREO movies are forbidden. For interlace mode we will have smooth movie but incorrect stereo.
andrey.g.smolin is offline  
post #218 of 680 Old 03-19-2012, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
The 1080 24p mode is really a progressive mode. In the PAL version, you will find also a "1080 24p" mode - what is stored as two interlaced frames without time difference

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #219 of 680 Old 03-21-2012, 01:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Wolfgang,

Can you give me some details about how the 3D macro mode works on the Panny? The specs state that you can shoot as close as 18" but not at what zoom range. Have you done any macro shots? Are there any limitations or issues I should be aware of? With a macro lens (and the Cyclopital adapter) on the JVC, I can get really close to a subject, and the results are outstanding. But my TD1 is out for repair and has been for over a month and a half. I'm getting very frustrated with the delays and poor communication.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #220 of 680 Old 03-21-2012, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Joe, I have not tested the macro modus a lot - since I do not use that really. I can try to do so, but that must wait until the weekend when I am home again (I have the Z10K not with me, I am at Italy at the moment for work).

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #221 of 680 Old 03-21-2012, 01:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Thanks, Wolfgang. I'd love to be in Italy this week.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #222 of 680 Old 03-21-2012, 08:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Pre-game activities.



Part 2 will have the game action.

Sports in 3D? works?

Link to one-lens version:

http://vimeo.com/38959870
markr041 is offline  
post #223 of 680 Old 03-22-2012, 02:50 PM
Member
 
natiahs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ewa-Marine has updated their product page for the VPZ1 underwater housing for the Z10000. Finally, an accessory!
natiahs is offline  
post #224 of 680 Old 03-22-2012, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked: 141
We need a way to attach an ND filter, badly.
markr041 is offline  
post #225 of 680 Old 03-22-2012, 07:52 PM
Senior Member
 
dwhite601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: San Diego, CA, United States
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by natiahs View Post

Ewa-Marine has updated their product page for the VPZ1 underwater housing for the Z10000. Finally, an accessory!

I've been waiting for that to be released. I've used their underwater housings for years and have gotten great results. I can't wait to get back to Hawaii this summer!
dwhite601 is offline  
post #226 of 680 Old 03-23-2012, 10:39 AM
Member
 
natiahs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

I've been waiting for that to be released. I've used their underwater housings for years and have gotten great results. I can't wait to get back to Hawaii this summer!

I'm heading there for the first time in 7 weeks to visit my brother. Really hope the housing is available by then. Ewa-Marine responded to my e-mail inquiry and said I should check back in 2 weeks.
natiahs is offline  
post #227 of 680 Old 03-24-2012, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Wolfgang,

Can you give me some details about how the 3D macro mode works on the Panny? The specs state that you can shoot as close as 18" but not at what zoom range. Have you done any macro shots? Are there any limitations or issues I should be aware of?

Well, I have done at least some small testing: this clip here (are old clips, maybe you have them)
http://www.file-upload.net/download-...00017.MTS.html
has been shoot in the standard modus.

And this clip here
http://www.file-upload.net/download-...00019.MTS.html
has been shoot in the 3D macro modus.

What you see is that the macro modus moves the object toward a much higher positiv parallaxe. Even if some user have stated that it does not stay stress free really.

What you can adjust in the macro modus is the zoom, but not the convergence. If you move the convergence wheel or reset the convergence, you go out of the macro modus.

I think the macro modus is nice for some purposes - but one has to take care that it seems to bring in additional stress.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #228 of 680 Old 03-24-2012, 01:20 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Mark- Have you tried to shoot the same scene with both the TD10 and the Z10000 using IA and compare the image quality? If so what was your impression of 3D quality and of image color and noise?
Don Landis is offline  
post #229 of 680 Old 03-24-2012, 02:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Well, I have done at least some small testing: this clip here (are old clips, maybe you have them)
http://www.file-upload.net/download-...00017.MTS.html
has been shoot in the standard modus.

And this clip here
http://www.file-upload.net/download-...00019.MTS.html
has been shoot in the 3D macro modus.

What you see is that the macro modus moves the object toward a much higher positiv parallaxe. Even if some user have stated that it does not stay stress free really.

What you can adjust in the macro modus is the zoom, but not the convergence. If you move the convergence wheel or reset the convergence, you go out of the macro modus.

I think the macro modus is nice for some purposes - but one has to take care that it seems to bring in additional stress.

Thanks, Wolfgang. I downloaded those clips a few months ago. Sounds like the "macro mode" on the Panny is not going to be very useful for me. I want to be able to get really close to some of my subjects:

Honeybee

Tiny flower

I have dozens of these shots, and plan to shoot a lot more in the coming weeks.

I used a Marumi +3 macro lens and Cyclopital3D adapter for those shots, and a more powerful macro lens would get me even closer. I also have full use of the JVC's zoom and convergence controls (as well as manual and semi-automatic exposure). I hope Ken Burgess and company make a CU adapter for the Panasonic 10k. If they had such an adapter today, I'd probably buy the Panny right now.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #230 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 08:25 AM
Newbie
 
MarcelW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Heerlen-NL
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hallo Wolfgang,
I am looking for a external Blu-ray rewriter to burn my videos. I was thinking on USB 3.0. Can you help me to make a choice?
Thanks.
Gr.
Marcel W

Gr.
Marcel
MarcelW is offline  
post #231 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 02:52 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Joe- What was the distance and zoom setting you used to get the Honey bee shot? It is amazing macro quality. I sure hope your life is soon made easier with a good editing package that can handle those JVC files easily and directly.
Don Landis is offline  
post #232 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 04:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- What was the distance and zoom setting you used to get the Honey bee shot? It is amazing macro quality. I sure hope your life is soon made easier with a good editing package that can handle those JVC files easily and directly.

Going on memory, I think it was about 15-18". I'm not sure about the zoom range, but probably in the neighborhood of 2x, with the appropriate adjustment to convergence. My Marumi +3 macro lens is very, very good. (It was the exact same lens used by Cyclopital3D when they were testing their JVC filter adapter. I bought it from them.) My JVC camcorder is due back in a couple of days (after being out for almost 2 months). I recently picked up a 77mm polarizer, which I'm anxious to use when I start shooting again this week.

The Edius 3D NLE is more and more stable with each release, and it handles JVC files flawlessly. The convergence and color correction tools are also first rate. When it comes out of beta (July IIRC), I hope it burns to Blu-ray 3D, but even if it doesn't, I can now render very fast in Edius and use Vegas to burn the iso.

I'm still ready to move to the Panasonic Z10k, but I'll be reluctant to do so until a true macro adapter is available (and maybe a stereo base extender). Overall, the Panny is much less of a compromise than the JVC, and has so many pro features.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #233 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 04:57 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Joe- when the Macro lens was mounted on the adapter for the JVC, was one of the twin lenses off center to the macro lens and one centered?

One of the difficulties I noticed with the polarizer, a single element is that when the glare was reduced for one lens it was not optimum for the other. Ideally there should be two filters or lenses that are concentric to the axis of each of the camera's lenses. I get my best polarizing effect when using twin cameras and adjusting the polarizer individually for best color depth on each camera before shooting. Using the TD10 in 3D mode the polarizer is less effective.

In the wide angle video there is an example of such a construction on the Cyclopidal web page.
Don Landis is offline  
post #234 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 05:13 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 182
No, the adapter forms a perfect circle around the JVC lenses - i.e, each JVC lens is equidistant from the edge of the macro lens. I haven't noticed any problems in my macro shots. Now I'm really anxious to find out how the polarizer works with the JVC. I have several sky, water and glass surfaces that were problematic last year. I'll know soon.

Of course, because the lenses are separated, each lens on the stereo camera will see different reflections. And the closer the camera is to the subject, the more different they will be. But that's true whether you're using a polarizer or not. That's unrelated to what you're seeing, right?

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #235 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 06:02 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Yeah all true. It's why I achieve much better polarization when working with separate, individual adjustments with the twin rig than with a single polarizer on the TD10 in 3D mode.

hey, I got lucky and found a sale price on a set of 4 closeup lenses with case for $14 for 77mm. I went ahead and ordered it after I tested a single +4 58mm I had here that just straddled the twin lenses for the TD10. The results I got were similar to yours with the +3. I achieved perfect focus at 9" and was able to zoom in almost 10x on a couple of screws and nuts on my desk to see good 3D but the depth of focus was only about 2" which is to be expected. I hadn't done this experiment before but after seeing is believing, I'm not worried about the concentric axis issue with close up lenses.
Don Landis is offline  
post #236 of 680 Old 03-25-2012, 06:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Yeah all true. It's why I achieve much better polarization when working with separate, individual adjustments with the twin rig than with a single polarizer on the TD10 in 3D mode.

hey, I got lucky and found a sale price on a set of 4 closeup lenses with case for $14 for 77mm. I went ahead and ordered it after I tested a single +4 58mm I had here that just straddled the twin lenses for the TD10. The results I got were similar to yours with the +3. I achieved perfect focus at 9" and was able to zoom in almost 10x on a couple of screws and nuts on my desk to see good 3D but the depth of focus was only about 2" which is to be expected. I hadn't done this experiment before but after seeing is believing, I'm not worried about the concentric axis issue with close up lenses.

Is that sale still on for the macro set? Do you have a link?

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #237 of 680 Old 03-26-2012, 01:45 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 160
I'm sure it is. Do a search for the Vivatar close up lens set on Amazon. Make sure you select the 77mm or what your adapter thread takes. Mine is 77mm. The list price on this kit is $109 for the 3 lens version and $145 for the 4 lens set. I've never done +10 so that will be interesting to try.
The +4 gave me 2" = full screen width. Probably would double the size of your bee. Plus you can stack them, you know.
For $14, I feel it is a cheap experiment. If I like the results but find glass artifacts in the cheaper Vivatar, I can always go Tiffen or some professional multicoated product. Filters seem to have massive discounts and close outs at Amazon all the time. I never pay full price for these and step rings. Typical is $6-10 for a $40 filter.
Don Landis is offline  
post #238 of 680 Old 03-26-2012, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Wolfgang S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vienna/Austria
Posts: 1,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcelW View Post

Hallo Wolfgang,
I am looking for a external Blu-ray rewriter to burn my videos. I was thinking on USB 3.0. Can you help me to make a choice?

Well, some time ago I have tested the Sony Optiarc BDX-S600U, what is a new technology for 100 GB Blu Ray discs, and that is also able to burn the older existing 25GB and 50 GB BD discs. And it uses two pieces of usb2 connections. A fine peace of technology and maybe we are on the secure side with such a writer - but maybe also expensive.

http://www.videoaktiv.de/forum/threa...hlight=Brenner

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
Wolfgang S. is offline  
post #239 of 680 Old 03-26-2012, 06:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tingham's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 2,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I use an external blu-ray burner made by Digistor. What's great about it is that it has an internal battery built-in, so dual usb is not needed to power it. It does not support the 100GB or 128GB BD-XL disc's, but does a fine job with the 25 and 50 gb discs. Disc's can be purchased for under $1.00 per disc these days for the 25 GB capacity.

http://www.digistor.com/Digistor-Ext...&category=3652

Go Phillies! Go Eagles! Go Sixers! Go Flyers!
tingham is offline  
post #240 of 680 Old 03-28-2012, 12:32 PM
Newbie
 
MarcelW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Heerlen-NL
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wolfgang,
Thanks for the information. I keep the Sony in mind.
Marcel

Gr.
Marcel
MarcelW is offline  
Reply 3D Source Components

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off