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post #1 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you connect your TD10 to your 3D display via HDMI and set the output from the Sony to Frame Packing and verify that it displays on your TV/projector?
I've tried it with my Samsung 3DTV and it doesn't work but does work in Auto mode which is probably frame compatible 1080i.
It does work on my 32 inch Vizio which shows it in 3D and the info screen says it's 1080i.
I haven't yet tried it with my Mitsubishi 3DTV but will later.

I'd like to know what displays currently support frame packing for interlace format as this information seems unavailable.

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post #2 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 06:43 PM
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Samsung D8000 46" (Recent Auto Updated Firmware)
Frame Packing, Side by Side, Auto and 1080i/1080p all worked with my TD10.
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post #3 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried it on my Samsung UN40C7000 and it wasn't compatible with frame packing but I found a update for the TV and am downloading it.

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post #4 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated to the latest firmware for the UN40C7000 and it still is not compatible with frame packing for interlace.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #5 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 07:48 PM
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Perhaps they changed something for the 2011 models?
Did you try their tech support? http://www.samsung.com/us/support/ow...UN40C7000WFXZA

My TD10 only has Side by Side, Frame Packing, and Auto for 3D (HDMI setting has 1080i/1080p- not sure if it's used for 3D: I believe frame packing is progressive only (same format as from a 3D HD BD)).
When I hook my TD10 up to my Black Magic Design Intensity Pro, Side by Side 3D won't work (nor frame packing): the TD10 outputs 1080i (2D interlace only). The new BMD hardware can handle 3D capture.
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post #6 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

Perhaps they changed something for the 2011 models?
Did you try their tech support? http://www.samsung.com/us/support/ow...UN40C7000WFXZA

My TD10 only has Side by Side, Frame Packing, and Auto for 3D (HDMI setting has 1080i/1080p- not sure if it's used for 3D: I believe frame packing is progressive only (same format as from a 3D HD BD)).
When I hook my TD10 up to my Black Magic Design Intensity Pro, Side by Side 3D won't work (nor frame packing): the TD10 outputs 1080i (2D interlace only). The new BMD hardware can handle 3D capture.

There doesn't seem to be any online info on interlaced frame packing via HDMI 1.4.
I remember that JVC mentioned that their 3D camera output it via HDMI.
THe TD10 does seem to be outputting some form of interlaced frame packing even if it isn't documented anywhere. My Vizio says it's 1080i and it's 3D and the Sony is set to frame packing output. Seems logical to me.

I tried the frame packing output via HDMI connected to my Mitsubishi 82738 and it doesn't recognize it either.

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post #7 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 09:46 PM
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Interlaced would imply 1/2 vertical resolution, otherwise it's really frame sequential. Frame packing is just a form of "top & bottom" with a blanking section in the middle. When my company worked with H3D (first mainstream PC 3D hardware circa 1998), their box converted 60Hz line interleaved or top & bottom into 120Hz stereo (1/2 vertical resolution). Frame packing is the same idea, where the TV does the conversion. The likely reason they did this was to make creating content easier and detecting the 3D signal easier (one large odd sized frame containing both eye views).

Are you sure the TD10 isn't outputting side-by-side 1080i (supported) and the TVs aren't switching it (making it hard to tell)? I could not see a major difference with casual glancing at the TV between the TD10 side by side vs frame packing. I believe the TD10 only supports progressive frame packing (per the spec) and probably supports both 1080i and 1080p side by side.

This might be helpful: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1301544
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post #8 of 31 Old 09-07-2011, 11:13 PM
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Frank-

I have the same 32" vizio as you do. I'll test it tomorrow. but as I recall it was in sbs mode when I was using it last with hdmi input to review some clips. I used it with sensio mode. As I recall the Vizio does not detect the Frame Packing mode.


The 90ES projector is quite difficult to switch to a manual input mode. It may be possible to force it into Frame Packing manually but I would need to consult the manual and see how that is achieved. I keep the projector in auto most of the time because I am constantly switching many 3D sources. Watching something like youtube 3D on it becomes quite a chore to force the projector to SBS half with the internet web page in 2D around it. I rarely watch you tube on the big screen because of that although it is possible.


On the Sony 90ES projector, I have an information screen that can tell you what mode the inbound signal is.
With Auto, the projector automatically puts itself in a 1080 60i SBS mode of 3D operation, controlled by the hdmi.
In Frame packing- there are a large number of resolution settings sub menu that comes up but none are detected by the Sony 90ES projector.
In SBS mode on the TD10- I get the same information as with Auto.

Not only does the 3D and 2D video play in Auto or SBS but also the complete screen and menus as well as in camera mode, the live camera and audio is transferred to the screen and sound system. All my Home theater signal chain is 1.4 hdmi compliant.


John- You probably know this better but doesn't the TV dictate to the TD10 what mode the TV wants to use and use the hdmi control to set the TD10 that way? Therefore what mode of output is really determined by the TV when the camera is in Auto.
I also agree with you that Frame Packing is top bottom full frames with a blanking band and is 1080p. Note my reference to the sub menu- You can select the resolution of the Frame packed modes after selecting the frame packing output.
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post #9 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to call Sony technical support and ask for a clarification of the frame packing output format from the camera.
I'm pretty sure it's using the non documented frame packing for interlace format which is why my Samsung's and Mitsubishi don't recognize a valid signal at all.

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I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #10 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 06:40 AM
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If I caught you in time, Frank. Ask them why the Sony VPL-VW90ES projector doesn't support frame packing. Also, what is the advantage of the Frame Packing mode outputted by the TD10, if any. Thanks.

Ref the Vizio test for frame packing:
I connected the TD10 to the Vizio now and in Frame Packing mode with res set to 1080p/480P or 1080i/480i:

The TV sees a squeezed image centered and the info in the upper right corner says either 1920x540p or 1080i full wide screen. Plus Vizio in 3D mode the image quivers left and right for a 3D image and when sent a 2D image the frame packing image stabilizes.

Other than the quivering the image for frame packed 3D looks OK when the resolution is set for 1080i.

The Vizio image looks sharper, stable, and I perceive higher resolution with the Vizio in hdmi Auto or SBS and the TD10 on full auto or SBS mode.

Also, I learned that if you put the TD10 in manual Frame Packing mode and then go to Auto, the system remains in frame packing mode while the Sony Projector does switch back to SBS. To switch from Frame packing ( with the quivering image in 3D) to SBS you have to go to the SBS setting in the TD10. The only other way is to power down the Vizio disconnect the hdmi and power up, reconnect and now the system will auto select SBS.

In conclusion, while the Vizio can see a Frame Packing output the image is not stable in 3D. The best looking picture is when the TD10 outputs 1080i SBS. I believe this is a SBS full ( 1080 60i x 1920 ) because using different renderings in my Vegas computer secondary monitor output the same results can be obtained using SBS Full. On the computer monitor the file plays in a double wide SBS two full frames of 1080 x 1920. Of course you can set that to display in anything you want in the preview window in Vegas.
The Vizio sees many flavors of output but only one is good quality and stable.


Sorry this got complicated but the more I got into it the more variety I observed.
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post #11 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
If I caught you in time, Frank. Ask them why the Sony VPL-VW90ES projector doesn't support frame packing. Also, what is the advantage of the Frame Packing mode outputted by the TD10, if any. Thanks.

Ref the Vizio test for frame packing:
I connected the TD10 to the Vizio now and in Frame Packing mode with res set to 1080p/480P or 1080i/480i:

The TV sees a squeezed image centered and the info in the upper right corner says either 1920x540p or 1080i full wide screen. Plus Vizio in 3D mode the image quivers left and right for a 3D image and when sent a 2D image the frame packing image stabilizes.

Other than the quivering the image for frame packed 3D looks OK when the resolution is set for 1080i.

The Vizio image looks sharper, stable, and I perceive higher resolution with the Vizio in hdmi Auto or SBS and the TD10 on full auto or SBS mode.

Also, I learned that if you put the TD10 in manual Frame Packing mode and then go to Auto, the system remains in frame packing mode while the Sony Projector does switch back to SBS. To switch from Frame packing ( with the quivering image in 3D) to SBS you have to go to the SBS setting in the TD10. The only other way is to power down the Vizio disconnect the hdmi and power up, reconnect and now the system will auto select SBS.

In conclusion, while the Vizio can see a Frame Packing output the image is not stable in 3D. The best looking picture is when the TD10 outputs 1080i SBS. I believe this is a SBS full ( 1080 60i x 1920 ) because using different renderings in my Vegas computer secondary monitor output the same results can be obtained using SBS Full. On the computer monitor the file plays in a double wide SBS two full frames of 1080 x 1920. Of course you can set that to display in anything you want in the preview window in Vegas.
The Vizio sees many flavors of output but only one is good quality and stable.


Sorry this got complicated but the more I got into it the more variety I observed.
Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.
Your Vizio results differ from mine by a considerable margin.
My Vizio yields virtually identical results no matter which mode I put the TD-10 in. In frame packing mode it looks just fine.

I set Vegas to display to the secondary monitor as side by side full and it looks horrible on my Vizio. Looks like major dithering artifacts or something like it. (unwatchable)
When setting the output to line alternate it works fine and I don't need to engage the 3D modes of the Vizio at all to see it in 3D.

As far as sending side by side full via HDMI goes, I would like to know more about that particular aspect. 3840 by 1080 @60i sounds pretty good to me and I would like to use that for everything if possible.

I haven't called Sony technical support yet as my first attempt to find the phone number has failed.

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I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #12 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 07:56 AM
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Frank- I'm afraid that the use of line alternate mode is probably permissible because of the card you have in your computer. I can't use that mode at all.

My results with the TD-10 directly to the Vizio hdmi input are reproducable with both TD10 camcorders I now have. It could be that your Vizio is newer and has different software. I bought mine in May but this technology is always changing so nothing is guaranteed to stay the same. Reminder the frame packing mode looks fine too until the output is a 3D program. In the demo video that comes on the TD10 there is a mix of 2D and 3D. Only the 3D parts have the quivering artifact. Is it possible your vision problem isn't seeing it? I wonder if the Vizio can update itself over the internet. Maybe I need to look into that too.
BTW- my default mode for Vegas here is SBS full. I even use that for You Tube renderings and let YT do what it wants after upload. Remember when you were doing your tall ships tests? I had asked you to switch to SBS full and you did and it really improved the quality on my Vizio here. I never use SBS half. Too fuzzy, especially on a passive monitor that cuts resolution in half anyway.
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post #13 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 08:01 AM
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"I wonder if the Vizio can update itself over the internet."

Yes, it is wifi enabled. The first day I got it there was an update. They are automatic, if the TV is on line.
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post #14 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I spent over an hour on the phone with Sony tech support and got transferred numerous times and the answer I finally obtained was that the frame packing output via HDMI is 1080P60 per eye.
When I pointed out that this is not currently supported by any TV I know of and my Vizio reports it as interlaced he admitted it might in fact be interlaced but doesn't know.
I would like to know what the 2011 Samsung that does support it reports it as; interlace or progressive?
I also mentioned that the Sony 90ES doesn't even seem to support it.
I was also informed that the side by side is limited to half resolution.(not 3840 by 1080i)

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post #15 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 09:27 AM
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Glad you got through and thanks for the details on the SBS output. I kind of suspected that was the case. The Vizio doesn't say other than 1080i.

Mark- My Vizio is connected via wifi. I have never seen an update screen and can't find one in the menu listings. Haven't looked at the manual. Been busy this morning setting up the second TD10 on my bench system.
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post #16 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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If Sony is correct and the HDMI frame packing output from the TD10 is in fact full 1080P 3D at 60 hertz progressive that's headline material isn't it?

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #17 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 10:49 AM
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"Mark- My Vizio is connected via wifi. I have never seen an update screen and can't find one in the menu listings."

They are automatic; you do not request an update. There is no menu listing or screen.
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post #18 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

Samsung D8000 46" (Recent Auto Updated Firmware)
Frame Packing, Side by Side, Auto and 1080i/1080p all worked with my TD10.

When you get time could you check what the Samsung INFO screen reports for the Frame Packing input? Is it progressive or interlaced?

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I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #19 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

I spent over an hour on the phone with Sony tech support and got transferred numerous times and the answer I finally obtained was that the frame packing output via HDMI is 1080P60 per eye.

Wow! Now with external recorder like DeckLink HD Extreme 3D or Aja Kona3 possible to capture dual stream 1080p60 or Cineform3D ?
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post #20 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll believe it's 1080P 3D @60P when I see proof!

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #21 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm beginning to believe that the frame packing output of the Sony HDR-TD10 is in fact 60P.
I called Samsung technical support and was informed that the new 2011 models now support it even though it's not listed in their online specifications.
How is one to know what brands of new 3D televisions support if they don't even mention it in their specs???

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #22 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

When you get time could you check what the Samsung INFO screen reports for the Frame Packing input? Is it progressive or interlaced?

When in 3D mode, regardless of settings, the Samsung D8000 reports 1080i. When I turned the TV 3D off, it still reports 1080i. With frame packing & 3D off, there is a full single image. With SBS & 3D off (TV), there are two images (SBS).

Setting the TD10 to 2D (where 1080p is set on the camera), the TV displays 1080p.

Since modern TVs can deinterlace video with high quality, anything is possible, however I don't see any artifacts that would suggest the video is interlaced, especially 60Hz. Almost seems like a bug, or debug tool for the hardware folks to know that the signal is 3D and report it as interlaced.

An interlaced signal could be buffered & deinterlaced with high quality (built into all modern TVs), resulting in a 30p buffered & processed image which would then be compatible with a 120Hz refreshed 3D display. Frame packing is 24p (also compatible with 120Hz display); same as the 3D HD BD spec.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_television
Quote:
HDMI version 1.4, released in June 2009, defines a number of 3D transmission formats. The format "Frame Packing" (left and right image packed into one video frame with twice the normal bandwidth) is mandatory for HDMI 1.4 3D devices. All three resolutions (720p50, 720p60, and 1080p24) have to be supported by display devices, and at least one of those by playback devices. Other resolutions and formats are optional.[24] While HDMI 1.4 devices will be capable of transmitting 3D pictures in full 1080p, HDMI 1.3 does not include such support. As an out-of-spec solution for the bitrate problem, a 3D image may be displayed at a lower resolution, like interlaced or at standard definition.

[EDIT]Interlaced above would likely be SBS.[/EDIT]
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post #23 of 31 Old 09-08-2011, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

John- You probably know this better but doesn't the TV dictate to the TD10 what mode the TV wants to use and use the hdmi control to set the TD10 that way? Therefore what mode of output is really determined by the TV when the camera is in Auto.
I also agree with you that Frame Packing is top bottom full frames with a blanking band and is 1080p. Note my reference to the sub menu- You can select the resolution of the Frame packed modes after selecting the frame packing output.

Yes, modern TVs via HDMI are just like a typical computer monitor: they report back supported modes to the connected device (same or subset spec as DVI for computers).

To clarify: when these TVs are in 3D mode, they are effectively in 120Hz interlace: displaying 1080p left, then 1080p right (or 720p l/r). Perhaps that's why interlace is always displayed on the Samsung when in 3D mode. The frame rate (not the TV flicker rate) is 24Hz for 1080, and 60Hz for 720 (that's the spec, anyway). It's technically possible to do actual interlace, but the TV would be running at 240Hz: interlaced left eye at 1080i, updated in 120Hz (total time) while the left lens is open, then repeat for right eye.

Found this doc: http://www.spectracal.com/3D%20Video%20Basics2.pdf, appears to confirm that the source format is 2205@24Hz (1080) and 1470@60Hz (720) for frame packing, and 1080i/1080p,720p for top/bottom or SBS. The TV then converts to 120 or 240Hz 3D (frame alternate, time interlaced but not image interlaced).
More info: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/specsheet-3DC1000.pdf
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post #24 of 31 Old 09-09-2011, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know what's going on with this Sony frame packing HDMI format.
What's interesting is that when I connect my JVC GS-TD1 to a 3D television via HDMI and set the JVC output to Auto then the picture is obviously sharper and more detailed then when it's in side by side mode which seems to confirm JVCs claim that they are outputting frame packing for interlace format at 60 fields per second.
When I mentioned this to the Sony tech he was quite adamant that this is not what they are doing with the TD10.
The fact that my 3D televisions support the JVCs frame packing but not the Sony's makes me suspect that their claim of 60P might be true.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
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post #25 of 31 Old 09-10-2011, 03:19 AM
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Hey Frank, the spec shows that frame packing is 1920x2205@24p. The TV then displays it at 120Hz, or 60Hz per eye, where the frame update happens at 24Hz (unless frame interpolation is enabled). So when they say 60p, that's 60p per eye, but the frame rate of the 1920x2205 frames is 24Hz. The other supported format for frame packing is 1280x1470@60p.

When I turn off the frame interpolation of the Samsung D8000 for 24Hz BD 3D content, it looks more filmic, but the motion is hard to watch in 3D, so I use the 'Standard' setting which is a decent compromise.
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post #26 of 31 Old 09-10-2011, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

Hey Frank, the spec shows that frame packing is 1920x2205@24p. The TV then displays it at 120Hz, or 60Hz per eye, where the frame update happens at 24Hz (unless frame interpolation is enabled). So when they say 60p, that's 60p per eye, but the frame rate of the 1920x2205 frames is 24Hz. The other supported format for frame packing is 1280x1470@60p.

When I turn off the frame interpolation of the Samsung D8000 for 24Hz BD 3D content, it looks more filmic, but the motion is hard to watch in 3D, so I use the 'Standard' setting which is a decent compromise.

John, if it were 24P then it would be compatible with my PN63C7000 and UN40C7000s and it's not. This lack of compatibility is why I called Sony in the first place.
Why don't you hook up the Sony TD1 to your Samsung and turn off frame interpolation and see if it looks smooth?

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #27 of 31 Old 09-10-2011, 01:06 PM
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I wonder is there anyone else with this camera?
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post #28 of 31 Old 09-10-2011, 06:15 PM
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I checked the official HDMI spec- the Sony is outputting a valid primary 3D frame packing mode: 60i, based on what the Samsung D8000 is reporting.
Spec is available here: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/specification.aspx
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post #29 of 31 Old 09-11-2011, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

I checked the official HDMI spec- the Sony is outputting a valid primary 3D frame packing mode: 60i, based on what the Samsung D8000 is reporting.
Spec is available here: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/specification.aspx

Looks like I'm going to have to continue to call Sony tech support and demand an explanation of why the frame packing output doesn't work on my UN40C7000s or my PN63C7000 or my Mitsubishi 82738 while the JVC GS-TD1 does.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #30 of 31 Old 09-13-2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Looks like I'm going to have to continue to call Sony tech support and demand an explanation of why the frame packing output doesn't work on my UN40C7000s or my PN63C7000 or my Mitsubishi 82738 while the JVC GS-TD1 does.

And it doesn't work with some Sony projectors either, right?

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