Vegas Pro 11- GPU Acceleration, Improved 3D Support - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 09-09-2011, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro11

Feature Requests

1. Stability first - no crashes or strange behavior.
2. No bitrate restrictions: allow full bitrates supported by format specs.
3. 60i to 24p quality that matches or exceeds PPro /AE.
4. 5.1 (or more channel) audio support for MP4 output.
5. XML support to allow round tripping with other tools (such as Premiere & AE).

Wishlist Items

1. Create depth map from L+R images (GPU accelerated).
2. Allowing editing of depth maps to remap 3D image using a non-linear curve tool.
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post #2 of 59 Old 09-10-2011, 05:13 AM
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My request would be to add 3D menus for disc! I would love to be able to make a still 3D menu, or a certain scene from my movie playing in the background as the menu with 3D buttons. Also the ability to add extras or behind the scenes buttons and when you click them it plays those parts.

3D items I own:

Sony 46" LX900 active 3D set

Sony HMZ-T3 (Cushion pads and light blocker mod)

LG LW6500 passive 3D set

PS3 & PS4

Sony BDP-S570 BD3D player

JVC-GS-TD1 (with Cyclopital base extender)

Fujifilm W3

Sony Alpha 55 (for 3D panoramic photos)

Quadcopter + Zenmuse and GoPro Hero 3 (Filming...

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post #3 of 59 Old 09-10-2011, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

My request would be to add 3D menus for disc! I would love to be able to make a still 3D menu, or a certain scene from my movie playing in the background as the menu with 3D buttons. Also the ability to add extras or behind the scenes buttons and when you click them it plays those parts.

That would be cool- 3D BD menu support and at least a subset feature set for 3D BD production (where Blu-Print still supplies high-end features, such as Java support, etc.).
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post #4 of 59 Old 09-10-2011, 03:03 PM
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John- Your thread request is a bit too late for V11, I'm afraid. If Sony announced it, I'm sure the v11 release is less than a month away and all that will be in the V11 release is a fait accompli. Guess you'll need to set your wishlist for V12 next year after we see what's really in V11.
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post #5 of 59 Old 09-10-2011, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Don- the biggest issues are stability and performance. If the workflow is even 50% of PPro (1/2 real-time), that will be excellent for quick edits which will allow skipping transcoding. Working around 60i to 24p doesn't take too much time (round-tripping to PPro/AE); would be nice if they fixed it for the 11 release.

Regarding depth map editing- while computing a depth map from a stereo pair can be expensive (though relatively easy to write a slow implementation- I did this in less than a day using linear cross correlation (coefficient) 11 years ago), some folks have stated they have real-time implementations (perhaps easier to do with a GPU). The TD10 depth map data appears readily available due to the compression format.

Once you have the depth map, you've got 2D+depth, and the depth map can be edited with 2D tools. A simple 'color curve' UI element would provide a fast and intuitive way to remap depth. Future TVs will do this in real time to allow optimizing the 3D experience (based on TV size and viewing distance). Thus, 3D movies will look great on the big screen and will also look great on TVs with zero change to the content (dynamically rendered from 2D+depth data).
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post #6 of 59 Old 09-10-2011, 09:14 PM
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Hey Don- the biggest issues are stability and performance. If the workflow is even 50% of PPro (1/2 real-time), that will be excellent for quick edits which will allow skipping transcoding. Working around 60i to 24p doesn't take too much time (round-tripping to PPro/AE); would be nice if they fixed it for the 11 release.
Stability- 10d was not so good, I admit. I had a few Vegas crashes for no apparent reason, but immediately upon installing 10e, those were all gone. I can be working in 3 instances of Vegas Pro 10e at the same time and don't suffer any stability or performance issues what so ever. Except if I try to play the timeline, In that case the performance of my system leaves much to be desired as it doesn't play 3D in real time.

I do wish I had a way to play the whole timeline without rendering to iso and play the BD-RE. This is a nice final check before burning a BD-R but having to watch the story line by rendering is something I wish could be improved, or, get a confirmed guarantee on hardware I could buy that will do it.

As far as the rest of your post-- I have no idea what you are talking about or how that would benefit me in what I do. But, you have fun with it and all I can do is suggest you contact Sony and explain to them how they can do it better. I think you are preaching to the wrong guy here. Sorry.
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post #7 of 59 Old 09-10-2011, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Stability- 10d was not so good, I admit. I had a few Vegas crashes for no apparent reason, but immediately upon installing 10e, those were all gone. I can be working in 3 instances of Vegas Pro 10e at the same time and don't suffer any stability or performance issues what so ever. Except if I try to play the timeline, In that case the performance of my system leaves much to be desired as it doesn't play 3D in real time.

10e crashes every time I run it. I save frequently so I never lose too much work, but not a good working experience.

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I do wish I had a way to play the whole timeline without rendering to iso and play the BD-RE. This is a nice final check before burning a BD-R but having to watch the story line by rendering is something I wish could be improved, or, get a confirmed guarantee on hardware I could buy that will do it.

For practice, I shot an 'unboxing' video of a new receiver (will post later today to youtube). Once I figured out the tool issues, transcoding and muxing took less than 15 minutes of my time (MVCtoAVI and FirstLight). Editing in PPro was excellent- drop in clips, real-time scrubbing, editing, nothing strange happened and no crashes (PPro CS5.5). I never need to run more than on instance of PPro- I can create multiple sequences ('projects' in Vegas) and frequently do so for more complex editing.

For this 10 minute test project in PPro with Cineform 3D, I'm rendering out 2-pass H.264 (all settings max quality) at 1920x1080@24. It's running somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 realtime (50% CPU (12 core), also using GPU); estimated 18 minutes to render. Vegas would take 6x-10x longer (108-180 minutes).

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As far as the rest of your post-- I have no idea what you are talking about or how that would benefit me in what I do. But, you have fun with it and all I can do is suggest you contact Sony and explain to them how they can do it better. I think you are preaching to the wrong guy here. Sorry.

No worries, these posts are for anyone who cares to read them

Here's how depth map editing would work: you've shot your 3D footage, and you notice that near objects are coming too far out of the screen. However, if you adjust the parallax to push the near objects into the screen, now far objects are too far deep into the screen. Look at an RGB color control curve (for white). Starts out as a line moving from the lower left to upper right. You can edit the end points and add points in the middle, etc. You can use the same control to adjust depth, where 100% white would be 'far depth' and 100% black would be near depth. You can tweak the line/curve as needed to have complete control over depth. Thus, you could push in the offending elements sticking out of the screen, but it would not effect objects in the middle depth or far depth, etc.

I just read the official HDMI 1.4a spec and 2D+depth is part of the spec: soon 3D content will be adjustable at the TV level (not just simple parallax), as the TV will be rendering 3D from 2D+depth in real-time.
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post #8 of 59 Old 09-11-2011, 02:59 AM
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10e crashes every time I run it. I save frequently so I never lose too much work, but not a good working experience.

I'm sorry for you. You seem to know what you are doing but apparently your system is not stable enough for Vegas editing. You are not alone. Lots of people seem to have unstable computers, especially when it comes to robust tasks like 3D MVC editing. At least I'm glad you have a much more efficient work flow using a competitor's product. I didn't even know Premiere edited 3D video. I have an older version on my computer too, but never liked it. Too much like Final Cut and I hated that too.
The one thing I could never figure out is if Vegas is so awful, why the heck do you waste your time with it? Especially since you can clearly state how much better your work flow is. Leave Vegas to those who know the software and have no real problems using it.
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For this 10 minute test project in PPro with Cineform 3D, I'm rendering out 2-pass H.264 (all settings max quality) at 1920x1080@24. It's running somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 realtime (50% CPU (12 core), also using GPU); estimated 18 minutes to render. Vegas would take 6x-10x longer (108-180 minutes).

BTW- your bench mark for rendering a 3D video clip of 18 minutes is indeed very fast on Premiere if MVC 3D clips. If avi's then not so fast! I recently did a 9'40" video with about 16 cuts and 3 dissolves, couple of B-Roll shots a few slomo's half dozen crops and full color corrections some audio corrections and the rendering to a wmv file 1080SBS full took 48 minutes. All clips on the timelive were 3d MVC. So, your estimate of 6x is just a bit slow for Vegas. I only have a quad core with 8Gb ram but the work drive is a Raid 0 at triple speed so there is no lag in I/O. To do a timeline to completed iso and BD-R burn takes about 8x the timeline time for my typical edit style which I believe is quite a bit more involved that what you are doing.
You must have some serious weak links in the chain for your 12 cores box to take up to 3 hours to render a clip 10 minutes in length. If I had your computer, I'd stop worrying about hdmi specs and launch a serious effort to figure out what is wrong with the computer. Your system is like driving a car with the emergency or parking brake 2on. MY one hour videos would render to iso in about 8 hours. Still about 8x time line and I don't even have a GPU in play.

As for saving frequently-- you do know that the auto backup feature saves the last change to an veg BAK file that you get to reload when the system crashes right? If it doesn't crash and you exit out and need the BAK file, you'll need to find it in a folder and change the file from BAK to VEG and reload it. Saving manually is highly recommended only because it then saves to your custom folder and with your file name buit is not required if you forgot and your system crashed. It will never save the last move that caused the crash, just the one before that. Plus- if you then relaunch Vegas and try that same move in edit and it doesn't crash, I might suggest you get your ram sticks stress tested. You may have some bad ram. If the Vegas always crashes on the same operation and others have the problem at that point too, then that is likely a bug that needs addressed by Sony and should be reported.
Other possibilities could be soft power supply. My computer uses a 1.2Kw supply that I squeezed into it. Yes, it was expensive but I wanted that part over engineered. Since I have 5 hard drives and 2 BluRay burners I wanted a big power supply.
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post #9 of 59 Old 09-11-2011, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Don- I'm running a Mac Pro using ECC memory (video card also has ECC memory). The system doesn't blue screen. No other apps crash regularly. 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, Illustrator, Word, Excel, VMWare, my racing game (I wrote the code), Premiere, After Effects, Reaper, Sound Forge, Audition, Developer Studio, web browsers (all of them), my web browser plugins (all browsers), network apps, run without issue. Perhaps Vegas has threading issues which don't manifest until after a certain number cores, graphics card interaction, etc.

Regarding benchmarks- it's best to compare the same projects on the same computer with both applications. The numbers I reported represent running the same tests with Vegas and PPro on the same machine.

Why use Vegas? It's just another tool in the toolbox, like PPro. Whichever works better for a particular task will get used. I also use FCP and FC-X (even used iMovie a couple times). PPro was fairly buggy until CS4. At CS5.5, it's more useful than Vegas, which is currently unstable (10e).

PPro can edit 3D directly using the 3D Glasses plugin from After Effects. Cineform's 3D tools allow higher performance editing and parallax control.

You are right about RAM and PSU's when computers get flaky. I used to buy beefy Seasonic and PC Power & Cooling PSUs when I scratch built my workstations (now using Mac Pros for PC & Mac workstations). However, as noted, no other apps are having issues. If there is something specific to this computer and Vegas I would guess there might be graphics driver bugs which Vegas hits and other apps do not: it always crashes while doing UI interaction (though sometimes hangs on rendering). Vegas also reports strange error messages ("unspecified error") when trying to render various codec combinations.
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post #10 of 59 Old 09-11-2011, 08:07 AM
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John- You are a very smart guy but you often fall into the pit of making a number of unscientific assumptions.

I forgot you are using a Mac. Does Sony list your Mac as a supported and tested platform using your OS mix? If not YOYO on stability.

Don't keep saying Vegas 10e is unstable. It appears to be unstable for you but very stable for me. Vegas for me on my computer is completely crash free. The last time it crashed for any reason was in 10d. I do not run unsupported OS or hardware in the mix.

The render speed numbers you reported in Premiere did not use MVC 3D files on the timeline did they? Did you use them for that test in Vegas? If so then you were comparing apples to oranges. Not that it matters, but I mention it to be sure you are not fooling yourself with unscientific comparisons. The way I see it your Vegas 10e rendering on a computer that is 3 times more robust than mine runs at much slower speed and crashes. Something is not right on your system, not mine. FWIW- my rendering of projects at 8X timeline is typical of all projects. In other words, my schedule is that I like to set up a render to iso of an hour timeline before midnight and have it ready to burn by 8AM the next day. For me 3D projects like this have become as reliable as clock work. Most of my personal projects these days have been about an hour long.

Thanks for the update on CSx. ( sounds like I'm being railroaded sales pitch, sorry, bad pun ) My version is CS-3. I use Photoshop and Ultra often. I'd upgrade but can't justify the expense. The original Ultra from Serius Magic made me a lot of money on my TV shows. Too bad the company sold to Adobe and adobe is slowly killing the product.
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post #11 of 59 Old 09-11-2011, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Don- googling, "vegas 10e crashing" returns a lot of hits:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...s+10e+crashing

When it crashes on my machine, it's the Vegas exe or one if its dlls. When it locks up, I just kill the process (could attach to the process with Developer Studio and try to see if it's Vegas, one of its dlls, or another dll).

A few years ago I wrote the browser plugins for Myspace's real-time audio-video engine (HD video capture, low-latency live monitored audio with effects, reverb, pitch correction, key change, etc.). The Windows DirectShow and DirectX (sound, 3D, etc.) APIs are some of the most complex in the industry. It's not easy to write stable software using these APIs. DirectX/Show is very flexible, however it is possible to get an unstable system due to incompatible or unstable plugins. Many times I had to create workarounds for certain sound cards, camera drivers, OS/API bugs, and incompatible codecs. When porting the code over to OSX, I found the APIs less complex (and less flexible), but it was also more stable.

Something changed at Adobe management philosophy around CS3. Prior to CS3, Premiere was unstable (my company has been buying Premiere since 1.0). CS4 was pretty solid, and CS5.5 crashes rarely (still crashes, especially if doing complex interaction with AE, but not enough to break creativity).
I have found bugs in MVCtoAVI and Cineform: reported directly to the developer as well as workarounds on this forum. Also posted workarounds for the low-quality 60i to 24p (use PPro/AE or as mentioned by others, try the yadif plugin). I find it helpful to verify bugs with other people and also read about workarounds.

Sony employees read these forums. If management is committed to improving the quality of Vegas, they could make stability a priority (as apparently Adobe did), and improve the stability of Vegas. One way would be to include symbols and add an exception handler to report what file and line of code caused the crash (with the user's permission, they can send error reports back via the network, as with other software). "unspecified error" popups in Vegas indicate error reporting is limited in 10e.

Mac Pro hardware is an Intel server motherboard, RealTek audio, etc. Not really different than an HP, Dell or custom built box. The most important point is only Vegas crashes regularly.

The nVidia Quadro 5000 is a pro-level graphics card. Due to its cost the developers might not have access to this level of card for testing (Quadro drivers behave differently than consumer level drivers). Quadro drivers are optimized for high-end apps- it's possible these optimizations may cause issues with Vegas.

It's possible there is software installed on my machine that makes Vegas unstable. However, if only the Vegas code is crashing, it's up to Sony to write workarounds (just like all developers must to make software stable in Windows). If Vegas 11 is stable, and can produce near real-time performance, I'll use it for quick 3D projects (not transcoding and a simplified workflow is very useful). It should be clear I'm not partial to any particular tool- I'm partial to stability & performance.

Regarding Ultra- yeah, it's cool. NewTek and Serious Magic (same folks) made some innovative products (Video Toaster was a game changer back in the day).
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post #12 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 01:05 AM
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Hey Don- googling, "vegas 10e crashing" returns a lot of hits:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...s+10e+crashing
So what? Just because there are car crashes, doesn't make all drivers unsafe. Both statements are about equal on the unscientific level.

If you find 9 cases where users crash Vegas on their computers and you find one case where the same product runs flawlessly, Does that mean the product is unstable or does it mean the one stable case is a result of that Vegas use is a divine intervention.

I do agree that Vegas 10e has limited error reporting but I also find those errors are caused by the user trying to do something that isn't proper or supported and no explanation is given to educate or trouble shoot. I have run into repeated errors like this and all of them were a result of attempting to design a custom render template with illegal parameters. The unspecified error prompted me in a few cases to investigate further and as a result, found I did something that is not allowed.

Here's an example- In Vegas 10e you can create a custom template that is illegal ( like typing in a FPS of 27.8 ) and have it show up in the list for Blu-ray burn. Then, attempt to do a render to iso and it will fail with an unspecified error. Does this mean Vegas is unstable? Not by my evaluation. It means the operator didn't use the product properly. OK, we could say that Sony has an obligation to protect us from ourselves by restricting the use of custom templates and only allowing those which have been fully tested and listed and to make that list of all legal permutations or parameters. Unfortunately, then the list would be too long to manage. So we are allowed the opportunity to mix up and match up our own concoction of parameters in the render as section and get away with it as long as those are legal combination. Some of those that are illegal will, indeed, crash Vegas. But I don't consider doing that to mean the product is unstable. It just means to me that I did something that isn't allowed. You probably believe you are the expert and never do anything wrong, therefore it's Sony's fault.

Another example to indicate Vegas or the hardware is unstable- I have a timeline and wish to scrub across it back and forth listening to the audio and eventually, the system just hangs and I get no response from the system, mouse clicks don't work, keep trying and soon the mouse stops moving and being an impatient sort, I reboot and blame the system, not me of course because I'm the expert, that it is Sony's fault. :sarcasm: But in another case I do not reboot, but go have breakfast and wait for 10 minutes, return and all is magically working again. This time I just understand I got ahead of the computer because it or the operations or instructions to execute the code being stacked up in the cue just took awhile. Maybe it's time to get a faster machine or understand I can't work at that speed zipping around the scrub like that on my system. An overall speed limitation.

In the past I did state that when my system just crashed for no reason ( Vegas 10d) that I was experimenting with all sorts of freeware that many of you were playing with. I also was downloading JVC uploads and testing and these files caused many of my crashes. But, when I remained inside the Sony supported work flow, I had pretty good performance. Was 10d buggy? Sure it was, but both of those confirmed bugs were fixed in 10e. Specifically, following the beta tester's "What constitutes a bug?" guideline, the two I discovered were the 5.1 audio artifact bug and the 3D CG titler bug in a 1080p render.
Vegas 10e has one admitted bug in the Blu-Ray render / burn now that was not in the 10d. There are menu items not grayed out or removed that do not work (intentionally) The bug is they should have been removed. You can no longer render and burn in one selection. That needs to be removed ( grayed out) or put back the way it was, Sony said it was a legal requirement to remove that convenience. Now we have to do it in two step process. Don't ask me to explain the lawyer logic here as I don't understand it, just reporting the reason I was given by Sony when they answered my bug report.

Here's another unscientific suspicion and I have no evidence to support this- Could a competitive product be designed to add conflicts that affect a competitor's product stability when present on the same machine? Resulting in the competitor's product becoming destabilized. eg. say Premier Pro designers want to sabotage Vegas and build destabilizing code into their installer. Then, when a user installs both, the competition becomes unstable making the user believe Premiere is a more stable product. Have we gotten to the point where sabotage is a possibility in the industry? I do know for a fact that there have been softwares that got installed on my machine that had dll files with same file names causing a conflict. (honest mistake) Heck SCS products have some common files and upgrades to one can cause issues with others that relied on the older version of the dll. This was a case with Vegas Movie studio HD Platinum upgrade from V10 to V11 and Vegas 10d. If you have both resident you have to be careful with the order you launch them. I removed Platinum V11 as I kept forgetting and kept crashing Platinum on launch. Didn't need it anymore as Vegas 10e fixed the audio 5.1 bug. More interesting is that Vegas MS v11 has a similar audio 5.1 bug that is now fixed in Vegas 10e. So, conflicting software installs is a real common event for me and removing those including registry cleaning and purging of remnants is what I have done here to use Vegas 10e in a 100% stable condition. I did mention this in other threads before.
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post #13 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Don- well designed software won't let the user create an invalid template etc. For complex systems which need to build a DirectShow Filtergraph dynamically, it can repeatedly build & tear down the graph as the user tries different values, letting the user know immediately if the value is valid. On one end of the extreme you have something like VirtualDub and AVISynth, which allow a great deal of experimentation (free software), and at the other, Apple's FCP-X, which won't let you make an invalid choice (and has very limited options).

Regarding other software causing Vegas to crash/hang: each package runs as a (memory protected) process- it's not likely that one process could cause another process to crash without something like a RootKit or unpatched OS exploit. Audio & video drivers, and any shared drivers can be problematic. However, when drivers crash, many times the driver DLL is visible in the crash info. In any case, application developers can run their code with a debugger along with competitor/other software running at the same time and see exactly where & how their software crashes. Highly unlikely that a vendor would try that, and the public backlash would financially hurt the company (including lawsuits, etc.). One company did release a RootKit (as part of copy protection) and when the public found out, there was a lot of negative publicity. Google "rootkit scandal" for more info.

The only other Sony software I have installed is SoundForge 10. It doesn't crash very often (can't recall the last time it crashed). Never installed any other Sony software except PMB, which I promptly removed.

Today I edited a practice piece in 3D using Cineform Neo & PPro CS5.5. Everything was blazing fast, never had to wait for the computer. Playback was real-time- was able to edit 3D/parallax fluidly in real-time on the external HDTV. Cineform improved the stability of their Parallax plugin, but it still crashes occasionally (this time when rotating the object). It's also non-optimal to have to edit the video parallax in FirstLight instead of from within the NLE (as you can with Vegas).

I knew that Vegas supports Cineform 3D, but hadn't really tested it. I just tested one of the Cineform 3D clips with Vegas 10e. Real-time performance in 3D, including full screen on a secondary 1920x1080 3D TV. It's not quite as fast as PPro, but it's a huge improvement in performance. PPro's GPU accel makes transcoding unnecessary: if it supported MVC 3D, it would run in real-time (can handle multiple H.264 streams, including stacked effects, in real-time). Vegas 11, with the reported GPU accel should easily be able to play the MVC 3D files in real-time.

I suspect the instability of Vegas 10e (on my hardware) is related to the MVC GPU decode code (based on the fact I'm using a somewhat rare video card (if it's not software-based decode)). I also noticed the secondary monitor setting was set to "Stereoscopic 3D graphics card" instead of "Windows Secondary Display" (I didn't set it that way). In the process of speeding things up for V11, hopefully the stability will also improve.

If you already have Neoscene, Cineform Neo is only $170 to upgrade. Perhaps try the Neo & MVCtoAVI demos to see what it is like to edit 3D in real-time without waiting in Vegas (PPro is even faster; however real-time is fast enough ). Vegas 11 should have similar performance (with a decent GPU).
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post #14 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 03:40 AM
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Hey Don- googling, "vegas 10e crashing" returns a lot of hits:
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...s+10e+crashing

When it crashes on my machine, it's the Vegas exe or one if its dlls. When it locks up, I just kill the process (could attach to the process with Developer Studio and try to see if it's Vegas, one of its dlls, or another dll).
Oh gimme a break.

Have you ever googled P pro 5.5 crashing? Go ahead... give it a try. Secondly, you're running Vegas on a MAC and you're complaining about stability??? Are you kidding me??? When did SCS start supporting MAC???

I'm running Vegas properly on a Windows machine and it's pretty rock solid.

Get a proper machine and stop messing around with the Apple toys.
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post #15 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post
Hey Don- well designed software won't let the user create an invalid template etc.
I guess you need to know what you're doing then

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Regarding other software causing Vegas to crash/hang: each package runs as a (memory protected) process- it's not likely that one process could cause another process to crash without something like a RootKit or unpatched OS exploit. Audio & video drivers, and any shared drivers can be problematic. However, when drivers crash, many times the driver DLL is visible in the crash info. In any case, application developers can run their code with a debugger along with competitor/other software running at the same time and see exactly where & how their software crashes. Highly unlikely that a vendor would try that, and the public backlash would financially hurt the company (including lawsuits, etc.). One company did release a RootKit (as part of copy protection) and when the public found out, there was a lot of negative publicity. Google "rootkit scandal" for more info.
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Now rootkit is some how tied in with Vegas crashes on your MAC?

Look John... it's clear you don't like Vegas. You think it's a piece of rubbish.... and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But....
1) it's just your opinion and you're nobody special
2) People get tired of hearing it.
3) You're running Vegas on a MAC which is not supported (This BTW invalidates just about everything you have to say about Vegas..... at least until you get a REAL machine)

You like P pro. Good for you. So why are you here talking about Vegas on a MAC???
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post #16 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 10:32 AM
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Well OK, I do like Vegas and I use it a lot. But, I can crash Vegas Pro 10e every time I cut and paste a clip from one project to another if I try to do it in the 64 bit version. It does work for me in the 32 bit version on my older computer. I think others have found this as well, and if anyone using 64 bit Vegas Pro can cut and paste between projects without crashing I wish they would post here, so we might all learn more about the reasons why that happens.
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post #17 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 12:27 PM
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Big Barney,

I cannot speak for John, but I can tell you that I am running Vegas 10e under Windows 7 64-bit with Boot Camp on an early 2008 Mac Pro 8-core with a GTX285 video card. I have no stability problems and I have completed and rendered several MVC 3D projects with no problems after 10e was introduced. I very much consider my Mac pro 8 core to be a "real" computer. And well I should since the Mac has been using Intel Xeon processors since 2006. When booted under Boot Camp my Mac Pro is just as much a PC as any PC available.

While I have learned from the exchange between John and Don, I find your characterization of Apple "toys" to be just the kind of nonsense that sets off a totally worthless platform war thread. Let's end it here and recognize that Vegas 10e can, under the right set of hardware and software circumstances, run equally well on a Mac or a PC.

Tom
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post #18 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 01:22 PM
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Thanks Tom. I was hoping you would pop in here because I do recall you were doing just fine with Vegas 10e. Glad you are still having fun with this. I've been busy working on getting ready for my expedition to shoot some large landscape scenes in 3D and have built up a Frank design bench but with twin TD-10s.

I do agree with Big Barney about the Mac only to the extent that the Mac is not a supported platform for Vegas. But, I don't agree that all unsupported hardware is an automatic condition for Vegas failure. What you have done Tome, comparing our testing we did together tells me the way you run your Mac gets equal stability and equal bug lists as I get with Vegas on Vista 64 and a Quad core 9300. I don't hate Macs as much as I get annoyed by macheads. My only Mac here is a Macbook pro and it has always run Vegas 8.0 under Parallels and Windows XP fine but the hardware was not fun to us on trips compared to my Dell Laptop.
I think John's real problem with stability on Vegas 10e is John, not Vegas. Probably if you visited with him, Tom, you could fix his Mac system and make it right. You've been there done that which means a lot more in my book. But John is an adobe guy and loves long complicated work flows. I also found it revealing and fascinating he has admitted getting rid of PMB.

Quote:


if anyone using 64 bit Vegas Pro can cut and paste between projects without crashing I wish they would post here, so we might all learn more about the reasons why that happens.

Well I do this all the time. Typically have 3 instances of Vegas 10e open, plus photoshop while I am editing.

Never have a problem with copy/ paste insert from one vegas to another.

Just to be sure you were doing it right- First of all I found others here were doing this wrong and instead trying to "paste" into the main project vegas timeline; you have to use paste insert. This quick advice helped a couple of others here.
The second problem is making sure you have enough memory ( usually a problem with 32 bit vegas not 64 bit with lots of ram you reported but just thought I'd mention it.)

Note: I run Vegas 10e 64 bit on a 64 bit Vista Home OS with 8Gb or ram.
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post #19 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 01:51 PM
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I run Vegas On my Mac under Windows 7 64 bit and never really have problems.

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post #20 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

I run Vegas On my Mac under Windows 7 64 bit and never really have problems.

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Originally Posted by TomWheeler View Post

Big Barney,

I cannot speak for John, but I can tell you that I am running Vegas 10e under Windows 7 64-bit with Boot Camp on an early 2008 Mac Pro 8-core with a GTX285 video card. I have no stability problems and I have completed and rendered several MVC 3D projects with no problems after 10e was introduced.

Well if this is the case then could one of you perhaps school John on how to use one PROPERLY?

Quote:


While I have learned from the exchange between John and Don, I find your characterization of Apple "toys" to be just the kind of nonsense that sets off a totally worthless platform war thread.

You mean sort of like a program war like this thread has turned into? Heck... why stop there?
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post #21 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TrickMcKaha View Post

Well OK, I do like Vegas and I use it a lot. But, I can crash Vegas Pro 10e every time I cut and paste a clip from one project to another if I try to do it in the 64 bit version..

Well... I don't have this specific issue but....for the record, I have Premiere pro, as well as Avid MC. I can EASILY make both of those crash/hang too.
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post #22 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback guys- sounds like Vegas 10e can be stable on:

Win7x64 (Home + more versions?)
4-8 Cores
8 GB RAM (more?)
GTX 285 on 2008 MacPro

I'm running:

Win7x64 Ultimate
2010 MacPro 2.93GHz 12 Core
24GB RAM
Quadro 5000
64-bit version of Vegas 10e

Extra cores can be problematic for developers, and the Quadro drivers are not the same as the consumer drivers. I've got a 2006 MacPro (4 core) with Radeon (card that came with 2010 MacPro), but only have Vista 64 available on that box (though it does look supported):

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/techspec
Quote:


Vegas Pro 10 system requirements
Microsoft® Windows® XP 32-bit SP3, Windows Vista® 32-bit or 64-bit SP2, or Windows 7 32-bit or 64-bit
2 GHz processor (multicore or multiprocessor CPU recommended for HD or stereoscopic 3D)
400 MB hard-disk space for program installation
1 GB RAM (2 GB recommended)
OHCI-compatible i.LINK® connector/IEEE-1394DV card (for DV and HDV capture and print-to-tape)
USB 2.0 connection (for importing from AVCHD, XDCAM EX, NXCAM, or DVD camcorders)
Windows-compatible sound card
DVD-ROM drive (for installation from a DVD only)
Supported CD-recordable drive (for CD burning only)
Supported DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW (for DVD burning only)
Supported BD-R/-RE drive (for Blu-ray Disc burning only)
Microsoft .NET Framework 3.0 (included on application disc)
Apple® QuickTime® 7.1.6 or later
Internet Connection (for Gracenote MusicID Service)
You must provide registration information to Sony Creative Software Inc., a US company, in order to activate the software. Product requires online registration within 30 days.

MacPro hardware with Windows 7x64 is supported based on Sony's requirements.

I have a PC GTX 285 modified for use on the both Mac & PC I could swap out with the Quadro 5000 (and use the consumer video drivers). Need to use the Q5000 for a specific project, after which I can try the card swap.

Additionally, the next time I run Vegas I'll attach to the crashed process using the Visual Studio debugger & report the crashing module/dll and address offset.

Applications shouldn't crash- ever. If an incompatible option is tried, the app should report a (useful) message and keep running. Regarding copy paste- the app will get a message regarding the payload in the clipboard, and it's up to the app how to respond to the message. If there is not enough memory, the app should gracefully report 'not enough memory' etc. If the app can't process the payload, it should report it or ignore it. If the app is crashing on copy paste, it's a bug and should be fixed.

Premiere is only used as a benchmark of performance and stability on my system. I considered using Avid for 3D editing, but the workflow isn't any faster than PPro with Cineform. Also considered Smoke but it only runs on Mac & Linux (also installs some hard core copy protection elements that likely won't be removed after uninstall. Would require doing an image backup before testing; not worth it at this time). Adobe does not appear committed to 3D editing at this time, and the Cineform tools, while getting better, are still buggy. So, if Vegas 11 is stable on my system (at least as stable as PPro), it will be a useful tool for 3D editing. If the performance is brought up, all the better. Using the same Cineform 3D files, PPro is still real-time, including multiple elements, titles, multiple audio tracks, multiple audio filters, audio & video transitions, etc. Vegas 10e can't handle a single 1920x1080 3D transition without dramatically slowing down.
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post #23 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 03:33 PM
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Below I have copied directly from sonycreativesoftware.com the full system requirements for Vegas Pro 10. My Mac Pro more than meets every single one of those requirements. It might be argued that the "Windows compatible sound card" is not met by the Core Audio of a Mac. However, when the Mac is booted into Windows 7, Apple's Boot Camp installs Windows 7 compatible drivers for Mac Core Audio. Now there may be somewhere that Sony states that the Mac running Windows 7 is not a recommended platform for Vegas 10, but it is certainly not in the system requirements below which make absolutely no mention of the platform required by Vegas 10. I have found numerous posts on the Sony Vegas Forum of others using Vegas 10 on a Mac running Windows 7 with no problems.

Note that I also run Vegas 10 on my PC (as I have indicated previously I use both Macs and PC's on a daily basis. Other than the fact my 8 core Mac Pro is much faster than my older PC, I see no difference in running Vegas on the PC or the Mac.

If I recall correctly, John is using a Quadra 4000 video card in his Mac which runs Vegas 10. While this is a far more powerful video card than my nVidia GTX285, I have read on number of forums that the current nVidia drivers for this card have given problems in certain applications. It is possible as I believe John himself stated that the Quadra 4000 and it's drivers may be producing at least some of the stability problems he is experiencing in Vegas 10, but that is just a guess on my part.

Finally, I want to add that along with several other NLE systems installed on my Mac's and PC's I have and use Premiere Pro CS5.5 on my Mac Pro. As John has pointed out the Mercury Playback Engine with CUDA enabled is extremely fast and powerful with real-time playback of multiple tracks of h.264 (AVCHD) possible with no rendering. I have found no other NLE as capable of real-time playback of multiple streams of AVCHD media as Premiere Pro CS5.5. In over 1.5 years of using PP CS5 and 5.5 on quite complicated projects I have experienced only one crash and I could clearly attribute that to something stupid that I had done.

I continue to use Vegas 10e on my Mac Pro for editing the MVC clips from the HDR-TD10 for the simple reason that Vegas 10e is the only NLE that will directly ingest the MVC clips and avoid transcoding to an intermediate format. I have submitted a feature request to Adobe that they add this feature to PP in their next release. If they do, then I will be able to compare the speed and stability of Vegas and PP with MVC material. I will then use whichever NLE performs best and/or is more stable with Sony's MVC format. In short, I am neither committed to Sony's Vegas or Adobe's Premiere Pro. I am committed to using the best tool, software and hardware, for the job.

Tom


Vegas Pro 10 system requirements
Microsoft® Windows® XP 32-bit SP3, Windows Vista® 32-bit or 64-bit SP2, or Windows 7 32-bit or 64-bit
2 GHz processor (multicore or multiprocessor CPU recommended for HD or stereoscopic 3D)
400 MB hard-disk space for program installation
1 GB RAM (2 GB recommended)
OHCI-compatible i.LINK® connector/IEEE-1394DV card (for DV and HDV capture and print-to-tape)
USB 2.0 connection (for importing from AVCHD, XDCAM EX, NXCAM, or DVD camcorders)
Windows-compatible sound card
DVD-ROM drive (for installation from a DVD only)
Supported CD-recordable drive (for CD burning only)
Supported DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW (for DVD burning only)
Supported BD-R/-RE drive (for Blu-ray Disc(TM) burning only)
Microsoft .NET Framework 3.0 (included on application disc)
Apple® QuickTime® 7.1.6 or later
Internet Connection (for Gracenote MusicID Service)
You must provide registration information to Sony Creative Software Inc., a US company, in order to activate the software. Product requires online registration within 30 days.
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post #24 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 03:37 PM
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Applications shouldn't crash- ever. If an incompatible option is tried, the app should report a (useful) message and keep running.

Just to be clear on this Crash means to me the application stops responding or collapses to the desktop and you have to launch all over. Or, the entire computer hangs. What happens in the case of assigning "illegal" parameters in a render as custom is an error message box pops up saying "An error has occurred in the creation of file.xxx. The reason for the error could not be determined. " You click on "OK" and you can go in and modify the custom render as template to fix what you think is wrong. Sorry if I misstated this as a "crash" or led anyone to think this is a crash. It IS indeed about the only time I recall getting a problem now with Vegas 10e.

Quote:


Vegas 10e can't handle a single 1920x1080 3D transition without dramatically slowing down.

Bullsh!t! John you need to qualify your matter of fact non-fact statements as follows- "On my system the way I have it running" ....
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post #25 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Tom- actually, your GTX 285 is faster than a Quadro 4000. In my quick tests, the GTX 285 was just as fast as the Quadro 5000 when using PPro (would likely be different if benchmarking something like 3D Studio Max). Thanks for the tip regarding the Quadro drivers- their strength in being optimized for certain pro 3D apps (3D as in 3D Studio Max, Pro E, Maya, etc.) could cause issues with other apps. Will report back once I get a chance to swap in the GTX 285.
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post #26 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

John you need to qualify your matter of fact non-fact statements as follows- "On my system the way I have it running" ....

Hey Don- my system specs are repeated throughout this thread. I will post video (with a camera pointed at the screen vs. a screen capture app) showing the behavior of the same clip & Vegas and PPro. I will then post the Cineform 3D AVI on my website which you can download and try for yourself. Will that be helpful?
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post #27 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 04:04 PM
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Tom- regarding the supported debate, I believe you are correct in interpretation ( John posted the same thing almost at the same time) but there was always this question raised by the people at Sony that A Mac does boot OSx and this is where the question of compatibility surfaces, they specifically do not list Osx and Bootcamp on a Mac to make Vegas work. People like you have demonstrated that using Bootcamp can and does circumvent the incompatibility of OSx. So, the argument remains that while you CAN use a work around to make Vegas run on a MAC, as flawless as I can run it on a windows PC, Sony does not specifically list OSx running bootcamp with supported windows OS running. I, personally classify this the same as the issue with supporting the JVC MVC file format. It doesn't but through work around ( also not supported but many, like Joe Clark and Frank have successfully done it. It's certainly a gray area as far as Sony is concerned but I believe if it was a supported install, Sony would proudly list it in the specs. It's why I say YOYO or You're on your own. I'm sure Sony knows it works but they are not yet ready to go on the record.
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post #28 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

MacPro hardware with Windows 7x64 is supported based on Sony's requirements.

Absolute TOTAL 120% baloney
Sony does not now (nor will ever) support apple in any way shape or form. Heck... it's not like Apple is any big supporter of Blu Ray either.

Now you can twist logic and fact any which way you want.... but it's still silly twisted logic.

You want to run Vegas on a MAC then that is your business... but don't bother phoning Sony for tech support.... because they'll just laugh at you.
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post #29 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

Vegas 10e can't handle a single 1920x1080 3D transition without dramatically slowing down. .

Vegas playback is purely cpu driven. If you're slowing down then YOUR MACHINE is not fast enough. Don't blame the software for your faulty hardware
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post #30 of 59 Old 09-12-2011, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchultz View Post

Hey Don- my system specs are repeated throughout this thread. I will post video (with a camera pointed at the screen vs. a screen capture app) showing the behavior of the same clip & Vegas and PPro. I will then post the Cineform 3D AVI on my website which you can download and try for yourself. Will that be helpful?

John. I appreciate your enthusiasm but I don't know what I would do with that cineform 3D AVI. Don't need it and and frankly find those long lists of file manipulations quite laborious and a waste of my time. It makes me almost nauseous thinking people are out there going through all this trouble. But I understand some who have the JVC are forced into it because they chose to shoot with a JVC that has no editing support.
I download the TD10 files WITH PMB and in a couple minutes, I am editing those MVC files in Vegas. I'll stay inside Sony work flow until such time as they screw it up. My timelines are often far more complex than the simple clip rendering and no transition dramatically slows my rendering down. Live playback sure, but rendering plugs along at a rate that is an average 8 times real time. It would probably be 6 times real time if the timeline were virgin clips with butt edits. In fact I recall it is about 6 times because I recall dumping all I shot, about 3 hours of clips to the timeline and rendering out to my BD-RE once for review. That took about 18 hours. After editing the piece was about 30 minutes with lots of effects like post pan and crop color correction transitions and titles. Took about 5 hours to finish the BD-RE. Little over 6 times timeline time.

Anyway, good luck debugging your computer, when you get it working right, I'm sure your system will render several times as fast as mine and be just as stable.
I'm only here to try and help those who want it with my opinions and methods I use. But, I will jump in and rebutt any who make a statement like you did.
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