Sony TD10 soft right eye on lens f1.8 scenes? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 43 Old 02-12-2012, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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The example just posted looks like what I have as well, maybe even worse.
For me: Only at full wide aperture ( low light ) and near full wide on the zoom.
Just the settings I use most of the time !

It's not a fogged lens, dirty lens or anything 'easy' unfortunately.
I did tests with manual focus, approaching the problem from both directions of zoom, to see if it's mechanical play, or just mis-adjusted . It seemed to be the later.

I did say in my post that I have accepted it's Sony consumer gadget level of product. It really is an amazing little camera. I think the strategy in purchasing one is to work with a dealer that accepts returns and keep trying until you get a good one. I did this with my local camera shop for lens's for my 3d rig, and managed to get a fairly well matched set. I told them ahead of time that I had special requirements and they were fine with it.

Don, I never expected the TD10 to preform as well as my pro gear. Sorry if I mis stated in that way. As I said, it's a great pocket camera. I enjoyed hiking in the jungle with it recently, it would have cost a fortune to carry pro gear in there. With careful post image processing, a sharp TD10 could be used to inter-cut on a bluray with pro gear, in selective situations.
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post #32 of 43 Old 02-12-2012, 10:34 PM
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les-d It seems you did qualify it to be a back flange adjustment of the right lens. Not an easy thing to get to I suspect. Most likely it causes little issues for 3D output as a consumer quality expectation as you are still using it. But I would like you to know that problems like this are peculiar and not an inherent design flaw. I have two TD10's and both are spot on! I do a bunch of SBS renderings and view editing on a 32" monitor so I would see it if a camera was broke this way. Regardless of that, I'm still disappointed in your luck with Sony repair. I have not had that bad experience.
BTW- my Bloggie 3D is out of vertical alignment by about 6 pixels. But I just correct every clip in Vegas calibration and it fixes it for me. I kind of copped the same attitude, that it is just a $200 camera, not worth the trouble to repair.


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post #33 of 43 Old 02-13-2012, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les-d View Post

The example just posted looks like what I have as well, maybe even worse.
For me: Only at full wide aperture ( low light ) and near full wide on the zoom.
Just the settings I use most of the time !

It's not a fogged lens, dirty lens or anything 'easy' unfortunately.
I did tests with manual focus, approaching the problem from both directions of zoom, to see if it's mechanical play, or just mis-adjusted . It seemed to be the later.

I did say in my post that I have accepted it's Sony consumer gadget level of product. It really is an amazing little camera. I think the strategy in purchasing one is to work with a dealer that accepts returns and keep trying until you get a good one. I did this with my local camera shop for lens's for my 3d rig, and managed to get a fairly well matched set. I told them ahead of time that I had special requirements and they were fine with it.

Don, I never expected the TD10 to preform as well as my pro gear. Sorry if I mis stated in that way. As I said, it's a great pocket camera. I enjoyed hiking in the jungle with it recently, it would have cost a fortune to carry pro gear in there. With careful post image processing, a sharp TD10 could be used to inter-cut on a bluray with pro gear, in selective situations.

For those concerned, my testing shows that this is not an inherent flaw in the TD10, though Sony's response to the particular repairs did not correct the problem, and further action is needed to fix this issue.

Details
Beiing curious about this issue, I did some extensive testing this evening of my own TD10 with a chart printed with a range of text sizes. I tested at various low light levels and distances between 4 feet and 6 inches, and between full wide, and one tick away from full wide. All testing was in 3D with auto-focus turned on. Both the camcorder face and the camcorder front to back tilt were set to be perpendicular with the printed chart, so equal distance to the subject for both lenses was assured.

I processed the 3D TD10 camcorder files into full SBS, saved still images, and did a compare of left to right.

In all cases, the signal for both eyes exhibited equally good focus.

I am not making excuses for Sony, though I speculate that their technician didn't have the jig or instructions from the factory to test for the problem you were describing. If that is the case, the only solution is to demand replacement of the entire unit, as clearly the still frame images I prepared from the sample video show the lack of equal left / right focus in your particular unit, and this is totally unacceptable. Viewing playback with lack of equal focus in both eyes can lead to discomfort and headaches.

Conclusion is that your unit is in need of repair or replacements.

My testing may not be apples and apples with your videos, so if you do the same sort of testing I described above and in that case do not see the lack of equal focus, then I will need to adjust my testing to duplicate the problem. Let me know.

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post #34 of 43 Old 02-13-2012, 06:29 AM
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Richard- Did you perform any tests between full zoom and medium zoom with manual focus adjusted at full zoom, and then pull out to medium zoom and finally at full wide?

The above would be the test for flange back adjustment. focus in manual should not change from full zoom through the ranges of zoom to full wide for proper calibration. In autofocus this will attempt to override any flange back miscalibration. There is also a standard test chart for flangeback but I think any that demonstrate flat plane focus issues would work. Like at printed page of 4-6 point text.

I also did a little dissection of one of my TD10's to see if access to the back of the right lens could be achieved. I removed the bottom plate and tried to remove the right side plate but was unsuccessful. I didn't want to risk breaking something so I aborted my probe at that point. Factory service manuals for these things from Sony are very expensive so I believe I have gone as far as I intend on this.


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post #35 of 43 Old 02-13-2012, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Richard- Did you perform any tests between full zoom and medium zoom with manual focus adjusted at full zoom, and then pull out to medium zoom and finally at full wide?

The above would be the test for flange back adjustment. focus in manual should not change from full zoom through the ranges of zoom to full wide for proper calibration. In autofocus this will attempt to override any flange back miscalibration. There is also a standard test chart for flangeback but I think any that demonstrate flat plane focus issues would work. Like at printed page of 4-6 point text.

I also did a little dissection of one of my TD10's to see if access to the back of the right lens could be achieved. I removed the bottom plate and tried to remove the right side plate but was unsuccessful. I didn't want to risk breaking something so I aborted my probe at that point. Factory service manuals for these things from Sony are very expensive so I believe I have gone as far as I intend on this.

I only tested the wide and near wide settings since that's what les-d had indicated as the issue.

I'd like to know if les-d also gets the "out of focus" results using a test pattern like I described. That would provide assurance that I had a good technique to duplicate the problem in a controlled manner.

There is a problem with "service manuals" alone. In order to get the most up to date information, a tech needs service literature subscription. This shows errata and updates to service manuals.

Also, specials harnesses and electrical control interfaces are typically needed for servicing, to put the unit into the service mode. I have replaced lens assemblies (motors built in), heads, transport components, optical blocks and chips. Today I have an associate in S. Cal that has service literature for the pro units, but not consumer.

I bought an extended warranty for my TD10 that also includes coverage for accidental damage such as dropping it in the pool. My most recent extended warranty success was coverage for the optical block in my 70" Sony TV. Had one month left on the 5 year warranty. The repair would have cost $1500 otherwise.

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post #36 of 43 Old 02-13-2012, 02:58 PM
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The sony service manual IS a subscription but I don't recall for the time period. I do recall there was a limit. Yes, there are sometimes special tools, especially for tape drives. Service manuals do not come with special software and connection cables.

I never get my money's worth from extended warranty insurance,


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post #37 of 43 Old 04-29-2012, 11:03 AM
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Here's my experience with my TD10 (recently acquired from the U.S.).

1. As delivered
Left lens auto-focuses correctly on subject of interest.
Right lens focuses a little behind, making main subject a little soft, and background a little clearer than the Left lens view.

2. After 1st "Auto 3D lens adjust"
Left lens image soft (both foreground and background).
Right lens image well focused (on subject of interest, and not too bad for the background).

This result was not very satisfactory compared with the condition as delivered, particularly as 2D playback will normally show the Left lens view.

3. After 2nd "Auto 3D lens adjust"
Similar results to 1.

This suggests to me that it may not be good idea to perform an "Auto 3D lens adjust" unless you are prepared to check the result, and see what is happening with the coordination of focus between the lenses, after the adjustment. Or perhaps all that is required is to perform the adjustment in good lighting!

The effects I've described were evident over the full range of zoom.

Overall I'm very happy with the camera, but I will be wary of this issue.
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post #38 of 43 Old 04-29-2012, 12:24 PM
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I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but last night, while checking out the day's 3D recordings, I noticed that the left image was out of focus. It turned out that it was my left eye. It was done for the night. I was able to verify that the video was OK by looking through each lens of my 3D glasses with my right eye.

My point for those of us with older eyes: sometimes an eye or two decides it has had enough focusing and retires for the evening.
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post #39 of 43 Old 04-29-2012, 04:00 PM
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You're preaching to the converted, dwhite. I fully agree.

Just to give some more detail, the TD10 footage was transferred with PMB onto a pc. And then imported into Vegas pro. Vegas pro was set up to display the timeline on a 50" plasma TV in squashed side by side mode, but the TV's 3D function was switched off.

I was able to jump anywhere in the captured video. I thought the clincher was being able to see the background of the Right side of the side-by-side frame in sharper focus than the subject.

The camera was viewing the scene "head on". Lighting was moderate (indoors with fluorescent tubes in the ceiling).

It was a shock after activating the auto adjust on the TD10 menu and taking some more footage to find that the Left lens had become the one with poor focus! The auto adjust was done at night indoors under artificial lighting, and these might not have been the best conditions for the camera to do its adjustment accurately.

I then did a second autoadjust with some colourful objects, but still indoors, and inspection of the new footage revealed the performance was back to what it had been on delivery a few days ago, or at least very similar. Phew!
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post #40 of 43 Old 05-13-2012, 01:21 PM
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mmmm,

worrying to say the least - I just sent my TD10 to Sony in the UK for the same issue, included a long description as well as photographs of cu's from the right and left eyes

I'll probably get it back with no change at all either - it has gotten worse over the last six months -

I've repeatedly run the 3D auto adjust - no real changes - but I remember going through a similar process with my EX1 backfocus which processes in a similar way, creating lookup tables and storing them to set the backfocus at different lens settings - it took a lot of effort and particular ways to get the camera to callibrate correctly - maybe the TD10 has a similar "process"

pictures on my blogg

Paul :-)


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post #41 of 43 Old 05-15-2012, 02:47 AM
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Paul, I had a look to your blog and saw the two pictures from the left and the right side. I think your TD10 has a defect. I have here two units of TD10s, and both work fine for me.

By the way, I wonder a littel bit why you as professional still stick to the TD10? Camcorders like the Z10K would suite your needs much better, to my opinion - would be my assumption at least.

Quote:


So if you live in PAL land, you need to consider the above - do you go for full raster at 24P or 720 at 50P? This only applies of course if you need to produce an industry standard BD at full data rates for best quality.

You know that there are good ways how you can converse 1080 50i from the PAL TD10 to 1080 24p for 3D Blu-ray? At least it can be done without issues.

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post #42 of 43 Old 05-15-2012, 08:29 AM
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Hi Wolfgang,

Well it is good to know that your TD10's are in good shape, let's see what Sony have to say.

My TD10 is a fun 3D toy, but seriously good in my opinion, very worthwhile having it in the kit bag, and I am using it on an experimental basis to see how far I can push a consumer item in the 3D environment.

..and yes of course, I've made several BD's with Scenarist, but also PD10 at the oposite end of the scale, I'm always happy to use the fastest and sometimes simplest and cheapest route to find a result, I love it when a very cheap camera/software combination produces remarkable results!

I've used everything from Virtualdub (free) to Edius 3D to produce 24P from 50i projects as well as Carbon Coder and Telestream Episode, in conjunction with Cinevision MVC encoder - and PD10, Procoder and TMPGenc5.

I'm interested in a Z10000 but it has been around a while, next version? My feeling is I'd rather spend a little on something with a higher bitrate, I have a fundamental dislike for AVCHD but can't justify another EX to build a stereo rig, well, lets see what comes up... and I need a bigger, better, 3D monitor for the edit suite... ha! more money indeed!

Paul :-)


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post #43 of 43 Old 05-15-2012, 11:08 AM
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Yes, the TD10 is a nice toy - similar for me. And I am not working in this high-end environment like you, since I fund most of the hobby by myself - so the Z10K and NLEs like Vegas or Edius are the best that I will afford. No way for me to invest in tools like the Scenarist.

The question will be if there will be additional camcorders like the Z10K - the 3D hype seems to be gone. What somebody could do is to combine the Z10K with a Blackmagic Ultrastudio 3D - and to use the hdmi output to capture 3D with a better codec. But for sure, it will be still limited.

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