What we have been waiting for? TD10 3D blu ray without conversion - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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"Got it guys had to change a setting in the cam when the option comes up on which frame rate .I am assuming that the 60p 2.0 is the one i want correct.The other top option is 60i 24p Am i correct here or do both work.cause my sony bluray is not 2.0 its a e570 .Thoughts here please."


This forum is about 3D. The "frame rate" options on the TD10 you are talking about have nothing to do with the 3D settings. 60p, 24p, 60i at 24 Mbps (not 60i 24p) are 2D options only. There is NO frame rate option in 3D mode. If you do 3D shooting with the TD10, you do not have to worry about finding or setting the frame rate, there is no choice - it is 60i, 28Mbps, MVC in 3D mode.
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post #92 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

anyone on this don u there

Sorry, but I'm not up to speed on the new PMB software. Mark will be your best resource on this.

As for the USB connect- Be sure your USB cable is the gray one that comes with the TD10 as there are some USB cables that only work for charging and not data. I've made that mistake before.
Troubleshooting the USB port on your computer- Try to connect another USB device like a hard drive to test the port. How did you connect your TD10 before?
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post #93 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The main problems can be fixed, and just require knowledge about your blu ray player and PMB:

1. The popping up of file info: this is just an option in the Sony blu-ray player you can turn off. In the video settings of the bluray player, there is an option to show info when the audio changes (!). Turn it off. The default is on. That gets rid of the big black bars that appear at the beginning of every clip.

2. The pauses between clips: I have not found a setting on the bluray player to play clips continuously, so for now there is a fix in PMB - combining the files:
First select the files you want to combine within PMB (cntrl-click). You then choose 'Manipulate', 'Edit', 'Combine Videos' and all of those files appear in a box.
You can re-order the files any way you like, and even deselect in the box. Then just click 'Combine.'
You get a new 3D MVC file that has no pauses and is not transcoded (still 108060i MVC).The combining takes seconds.

Now burn that file to blu ray (selecting the 3D bluray option): ['Manipulate', 'Create Discs', 'Create Blu ray Discs', 3D Discs.

Now you will have a 3D blu ray that will play with no popups and continuously.

I do not know why the info says 720p on the HDTV. So still more to learn.



MarK:

I must be doing something wrong although I can't figure out what. Each time I follow your instructions about selecting files and then clicking on "Combine", I get the same message "Can't combine files". Is there an itermediate step not specifically mentioned in your suggested routine for creating a single combined file?
I am using PMB 5.8 with the Blu Ray plugin installed.

Many thanks for whatever you can suggest.

Marty
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post #94 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"Got it guys had to change a setting in the cam when the option comes up on which frame rate .I am assuming that the 60p 2.0 is the one i want correct.The other top option is 60i 24p Am i correct here or do both work.cause my sony bluray is not 2.0 its a e570 .Thoughts here please."


This forum is about 3D. The "frame rate" options on the TD10 you are talking about have nothing to do with the 3D settings. 60p, 24p, 60i at 24 Mbps (not 60i 24p) are 2D options only. There is NO frame rate option in 3D mode. If you do 3D shooting with the TD10, you do not have to worry about finding or setting the frame rate, there is no choice - it is 60i, 28Mbps, MVC in 3D mode.

sk


Im sorry i am talking about pmb.When burning a bluray disk there are 2 promps choose a.Or choose 2 the 2.0 deal I just wanted to ask which prompt to choose that all. Do you get me now.Sorry,,O what and where are the best blurays disk to burn is sonys the way to go with.
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post #95 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

1. The usb ports on the Sony Sx80 blu ray players are compatible with both FAT32 and NTFS drives. No 2GB limit.

2. The S580 series and up have built-in wif-fi (and two free usb ports). They are DNLA-enabled, so you can play video files stored on DNLA servers, just like the PS3.

4. The menu system for the blu ray players looks identical to that on the PS3.

Supports NTFS for USB - nice! I smell a PS4 console coming out of this. Speculation is announcement June 2012. http://www.ps4playstation4.com/PS4News

That menu on the Sony Bluray player with the PS3 similarilty is called the XrossMediaBar abbreviated as XMB - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XrossMediaBar

Here's the set up for the question. Record 3D MVC video files with TD10 camcorder. Import these to the PC with PMB. Served the file over the Lan via DLNA to the Sony S580 player. Now the question: Do these files play in 3D 1080i60 on the S580? The equivalent setup on the PS3 plays the 3D files in 2D only when played over the LAN with DLNA. If the S580 does 3D from MVC DLNA it is an important departure from the limitations of the past.

Other questions - Are you sure you are getting 1080i60 to your monitor from the S580? Are you able to play directly from the TD10 to your monitor over HDMI with no device in between, with the HDMI output on the TD10 menu set to frame packing mode? Which monitor is it?

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post #96 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

That' not accurate. Here's the math. (multiple by 2 for 3D)

1080i60 has 62.2 million pixels per second = 1920x1080x60/2

720p60 has 55.3 million pixels per second = 1280x720x60

So there's 12.5% more pixels per second in 1080i60 than 720p60 has.

Also there's 2.3 times as many pixels in a 1080 still frame than 720. Our eyes see detail better when there is less motion. This does make a difference. I've observed from the onset that CBS and NBC's 1080 was a notch above ABC and Fox's 720. Pity that we got locked into MPEG2 (i.e. no 1080p60) for OTA since AVCHD could easily do 1080p60 in the allotted OTA bandwidth.

Applied back to the topic of this thread, the math shows (and my eyes verify) that there is always more detailed information in the original 1080i60 MVC 3D output of the TD10 and PMB than there is in the recoded 720p60 or 1080p24 output of Vegas 10. Vegas could stand some improvement, since the video quality output of PMB is better. Pay more. Get less, quality that is.

That is not accurate too. It is wrong to count pixels only, but ignore the fact that 1080 50i/60i has significant interline flicker - what reduces effective pixel even without movement, but even more with movement. Taking that into account, 720 50p/60p is not better or worser then 1080 50i/60i and not better then 1080 24p, as long as the akquisition footage is 1080 50i/60i.

For PAL 1080 50i it is easier to generate high-quality 1080 24p from 1080 50i - making the movie about 4% longer in Vegsa. That is not possible for the NTSC version with 1080 60i, only with the PAL version. But even here you see no difference between 720 50p and 1080 24p - as long as you start with 1080 50i footage from the TD10. The reason for that is the interline flicker.

Another issue is that the MVC-Encoder in Vegas is not really bad, but it is also not the best what would be possible. For example, the maximum data rate for Blu Ray is not used really (what can be up to 40 Mbps for a single stream, for the fist and second stream in 3D together up to 60 Mbps - what does the Sony AVC encoder not use at all). Also from that side I understand that people may want to use the TD10 files without reencoding - but then you have to live with the very limited cutting possibilities that the pmb 5.8 offers.

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post #97 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

My bluray burner is currently installed in another PC than where I would like to use PMB.

Will the 5.8 PMB let me send the output to an iso file so I can burn it on the other machine?

If the answer is no, is there a bluray drive emulator that PMB will interoperate with so that I can accompish the same result to burn to a virtual disk, i.e. an iso file instead of a physically connected disk?

I read that a bluray drive needs to be detected to install the Sony bluray support. I can do that temporarily if it cannot be emulated.

I have used Starwind software to emulate a virtual BD driver on my network in the past. Take a look at this product http://www.starwindsoftware.com/ultr...vdrom-emulator. I used their software, Starwind and Starport, with success a few years back.
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post #98 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Marty: "I must be doing something wrong although I can't figure out what. Each time I follow your instructions about selecting files and then clicking on "Combine", I get the same message "Can't combine files". Is there an itermediate step not specifically mentioned in your suggested routine for creating a single combined file?"


There is no secret intermediate step.

You copy your TD10 clips to a directory, you tell PMB what directory your clips are in, and then within PMB got to that directory. Then select which clips you want to combine. Then go to Manipulate, Edit, Combine. Then Combine. That's it. I just tried it again, and it works fine.
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post #99 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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icerat: The S570 will not play a AVCHD 2.0 3D blu ray. No point in making one to play on that player. If you want to make one anyway; yes you choose the lower option, AVCHD 2.0.
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post #100 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

That is not accurate too. It is wrong to count pixels only, but ignore the fact that 1080 50i/60i has significant interline flicker - what reduces effective pixel even without movement, but even more with movement. Taking that into account, 720 50p/60p is not better or worser then 1080 50i/60i and not better then 1080 24p, as long as the akquisition footage is 1080 50i/60i.

For PAL 1080 50i it is easier to generate high-quality 1080 24p from 1080 50i - making the movie about 4% longer in Vegsa. That is not possible for the NTSC version with 1080 60i, only with the PAL version. But even here you see no difference between 720 50p and 1080 24p - as long as you start with 1080 50i footage from the TD10. The reason for that is the interline flicker.

Another issue is that the MVC-Encoder in Vegas is not really bad, but it is also not the best what would be possible. For example, the maximum data rate for Blu Ray is not used really (what can be up to 40 Mbps for a single stream, for the fist and second stream in 3D together up to 60 Mbps - what does the Sony AVC encoder not use at all). Also from that side I understand that people may want to use the TD10 files without reencoding - but then you have to live with the very limited cutting possibilities that the pmb 5.8 offers.


The calculation shows that there is more detail in 1080 than 720 when most of the video image is stationary. A 1080i image converted to 1080p for display, as many displays do, that is mostly stationary will have no interline flicker and no degradation due to interlacing.

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post #101 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Marty: "I must be doing something wrong although I can't figure out what. Each time I follow your instructions about selecting files and then clicking on "Combine", I get the same message "Can't combine files". Is there an itermediate step not specifically mentioned in your suggested routine for creating a single combined file?"


There is no secret intermediate step.

You copy your TD10 clips to a directory, you tell PMB what directory your clips are in, and then within PMB got to that directory. Then select which clips you want to combine. Then go to Manipulate, Edit, Combine. Then Combine. That's it. I just tried it again, and it works fine.

I tried it twice with the same result. There might be a problem within the PMB software. I am going to reinstall it and see what happens.
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post #102 of 152 Old 10-09-2011, 11:37 PM
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can anyone here confirm that this bluray player is 2.0 avchd


http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...07309#overview
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post #103 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

The calculation shows that there is more detail in 1080 than 720 when most of the video image is stationary. A 1080i image converted to 1080p for display, as many displays do, that is mostly stationary will have no interline flicker and no degradation due to interlacing.

Unfortunatly it is also wrong to believe, that interline flicker takes place with movement only. It takes place without movement too, but it is right that the decrease in line resolution is much stronger with movement. With movement line resolution can drop down to 700-800 lines. But you cannot avoid line reduction by interline flicker at all. That is the reason why 1080 50i/60i will not be superior to 720 50p/60p really - since you always start from 1080 50i/60i when you use a TD10.

If you wish to maintain the higher resolution of 1080 really, you would need to use an progressive acquisition format, but that is not possible with the TD10.

But there is another reasony why you will win if you burn TD10 files without conversion to a BD-R/RE. What you win is that the footage has not been rendered, and for sure there are some rendering losses in the Sony AVC/MVC encoder. That are the good news. The bad news are, that you have to stick to the PMB then at the moment. Its up to the user what he or she takes.

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post #104 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

can anyone here confirm that this bluray player is 2.0 avchd


http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...07309#overview

If it doesn't ship 2.0 capable, it can be updraded to play 3D 2.0 AVCHD
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post #105 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Videoguy68 View Post

I tried it twice with the same result. There might be a problem within the PMB software. I am going to reinstall it and see what happens.

Here I am answeing myself! I installed the 5.8 version of the PMB software with Blu Ray 3D plugin on another computer and was able to create a combined file. There must be a software conflict on my main computer.
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post #106 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the upate. It could be an inadequate memory or disk space issue. Check the amount of free area for each on the computer where merging did not work.
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post #107 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 07:26 AM
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Is there anybody yet, who has been able to playback 1080 50i or 1080 60i as 1080i (so not 720p) from an AVCHD-BD in 3D, generated with PMB 5.8? I still understood that we got only one user with 720p....

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post #108 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Is there anybody yet, who has been able to playback 1080 50i or 1080 60i as 1080i (so not 720p) from an AVCHD-BD in 3D, generated with PMB 5.8? I still understood that we got only one user with 720p....

Nope, not with Cyberlink. I burned some vid to bluray (3d) last night and it will Not play 3D on Cyberlink Ultra Power DVD11. 2D works fine. I can get store bought 3D bluray to play, so I know the PC works. I have a question in to tech support at Cyberlink and will let you know what they say.
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post #109 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 09:52 AM
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what bluray disk are the best to use when i want to burn a disk.
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post #110 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

what bluray disk are the best to use when i want to burn a disk.

I have been pondering this for a while and actually found an excellent review on disks and probably more than you're looking for.

http://blog.consumerpla.net/2011/01/...iew-guide.html

Down near the bottom of each page, click "Next>>" to get through all of the articles. I think around page 22 or so, you get some actual comparisons on disks. I usually use Verbatim or TDK, that is prior to reading this article again.

BD-R, recordable once
BD-RE, rewriteable
DL-Dual Layer or twice the amount recordable

Recording speed is a factor, don't spend more expensive 6X recordable disks if your burner only burns at a max 4X, etc.

Don't buy DL disks if your burner won't burn DL... or RE if it won't do RE disks.

Find out the specs on your burner before you buy.

Personally, I'm going to get a bunch of cheap ones for testing and toss, some good ones for saving, and some DL for big movies - I have grand plans...

I'll probably get a few RE just to test. Rerecording still has me scratching my head.

In regard to "archiving" long term? I keep the original movies/format backed up on 3 separate HD. Fun stuff.
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post #111 of 152 Old 10-10-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Thanks for the upate. It could be an inadequate memory or disk space issue. Check the amount of free area for each on the computer where merging did not work.

Disk space and memory are good, so I tried what usually works. I reinstalled the PMB, updated it and voila it works fine and happily combines video files on request.

I played the 3D Blu Ray disk I created on Power DVD V 11 and it plays in...beautiful 2D. I ordered a 580 DVD player and hope it will play the file in 1080i 3D.

Let's see
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post #112 of 152 Old 10-11-2011, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by emporer View Post

I'll be most interested to hear your results, the 580 is almost the same as the 480 bar a few little things so it will be interesting to see how you get on, I know that PMB literally just burns the files so they should play at 1080i but its just not happening, its definately the 480 thats downsizing it on the fly to 720p, yet all other formats 2d or 3d are played at what they should be.

Also with the pauses between clips, I couldnt find any way to merge all the files to one, it just wont have it.

I just got the 580 and updated it. It now plays MVC files burned to a BD-R using PMB. How do I find out if the files are being downsized to 720p or anything else by the 580? i don't see any control or setting that will show me the resolution of the video being played. Thanks!

Marty
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post #113 of 152 Old 10-11-2011, 08:29 PM
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Typically there is a kind of information bottom on your HDTV - if you press that you should see the information about the video. Do not know how it is called on your HDTV...

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post #114 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 07:01 AM
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I tried a 3D from pmb on my S470. Unfortunately its not working.
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post #115 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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As has been said in this thread, only the S480+ series, with the latest update, will play 3D AVCHD 2.0 blurays.
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post #116 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 07:28 AM
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Sure. But can somebody confirm that this is working now for him with 1080 50i/60i really? Maybe you?

Or does it only work as 720 50p/60p output?

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post #117 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djamesb View Post

I have been pondering this for a while and actually found an excellent review on disks and probably more than you're looking for.

http://blog.consumerpla.net/2011/01/...iew-guide.html

Down near the bottom of each page, click "Next>>" to get through all of the articles. I think around page 22 or so, you get some actual comparisons on disks. I usually use Verbatim or TDK, that is prior to reading this article again.

BD-R, recordable once
BD-RE, rewriteable
DL-Dual Layer or twice the amount recordable

Recording speed is a factor, don't spend more expensive 6X recordable disks if your burner only burns at a max 4X, etc.

Don't buy DL disks if your burner won't burn DL... or RE if it won't do RE disks.

Find out the specs on your burner before you buy.

Personally, I'm going to get a bunch of cheap ones for testing and toss, some good ones for saving, and some DL for big movies - I have grand plans...

I'll probably get a few RE just to test. Rerecording still has me scratching my head.

In regard to "archiving" long term? I keep the original movies/format backed up on 3 separate HD. Fun stuff.



ok what type do i want to use

Lacquer (24)
Inkjet (76)
Thermal (20)
Everest/TEAC (22)
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post #118 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

As has been said in this thread, only the S480+ series, with the latest update, will play 3D AVCHD 2.0 blurays.

Maybe I missed it, but I thought it was suggested that there are or would be some Panasonic players that could be updated to play 3D AVCHD 2.0 blurays? Doesn't Panasonic have a new pro/prosumer camcorder coming out this month that will record in 3D AVCHD 2.0?
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post #119 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Typically there is a kind of information bottom on your HDTV - if you press that you should see the information about the video. Do not know how it is called on your HDTV...

There is an info button on the TV which showed the Blu Ray 3D video is 1080i.

The video was burned using PMB 5.8, a Sony 580 Blu Ray player and a Panasonic plasma GT30 TV
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post #120 of 152 Old 10-12-2011, 11:45 PM
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Interesting, for some reason the S480 that I tried (now returned) just wouldn't play the PMB created 3D disc at 1080i, just 720p with no option at all to change it that I could find. Obviously the disc was created ok with no recoding done so I cant understand why it only played it in 720p, I did think it may be my tv not supporting 1080i 3d but I hooked the TD10 to the tv and it played just fine at 1080i 3d.

Only thing I can think of is maybe the S480 has limitations that the S580 doesnt?
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