What we have been waiting for? TD10 3D blu ray without conversion - AVS Forum
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony has upgraded its PMB software (free with TD10) to 5.8 so it is compatible with AVCHD 2.0 (including 3D). Here is what the new version does:

"3D and 60p/50p videos can be burned on a Blu-ray disc without being converted."

For those who don't know, or sneer at PMB, here is what it does:

It seamlessly stitches 3D long shots (more than 2GB) that were split into files. No other software does this.

It allows the trimming and cutting and splitting of 3D files without conversion or loss of 3D (smart render).

It merges 3D clips, including the edited ones, into one 3D video without conversion.

And now it makes a 3D bluray without conversion. The new AVCHD 3D spec includes 108060i, in addition to 72060p and 108024p, and now we can make blurays that will play in regular (updated) bluray players without the awful 24p curse or downrezzing.

Now if they would just upgrade Sony Vegas 10 to conform to the AVCHD 2.0 3D spec, we will have it all. I suspect we will have to purchase 11 for that.





Thus it produces higher quality 3D blu-ray or any videos compared with any software editor from TD10 clips (though without any fancy transitions).

Now, I haven't tried this for bluray. And bluray players may have to be upgraded to the new standard, but I that is happening. Here is what the latest firmware upgrade does for the Sony Sx80 line of bluray players:

"■Adds the ability to play discs recorded in AVCHD™ version 2.0 format (AVCHD 3D/Progressive).
■Adds the ability to play BDAV content recorded in 3D/Progressive format using BD-R/BD-RE media."

With Sony, you now have the complete software/hardware package for 3D: the TD10, its software, and an available bluray player to play 3D blurays natively from the camera.
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:53 PM
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I am sorry, but a lot of this points are not correct. The PMB 5.8 does NOT generate a 3D Blu Ray - and the 3D Blu Ray specification includes still not 1080 50i or 1080 60i (what would be great), but still only 720 50p, 720 60p and 1080 24p.

To generate a 3D Blu Ray you still have to use an MVC-Encoder - what is not build in in PMB 5.8 for sure. What PMB 5.8 does is to burn an AVCHD 2.0 file structure on BD-R/RE, and not more. What has the disadvantage, that a lot of now existing 3D Blu Ray player will playback such a BD in 2D only - since firmware updates that allow AVCHD 2.0 are not out yet for all the existing equipment.

But if somebody purchases now a 3D Blu Ray, it would be wise to check if AVCHD 2.0 is supported. Not easy, for example the Sony specifications for 3D Blu Ray does not show that at all (as far as I have seen).

The PMB 5.8 is not really a solution at the moment, to my opinion. Beside the strong limitations in trimming and cutting footage. But not everyone is cutting footage, and maybe with upcoming players it can be helpful.

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Old 10-03-2011, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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The nomenclature is confusing, and your post adds to the confusion a bit by being, well, wrong in some aspects.

PMB does generate a 3D bluray, but it can only play on bluray players that can play the new AVCHD 2.0 3D spec, as I indicated. That happens to be on all the current Sony bluray players. The files are MVC, because MVC files are what the TD10 produces. So your statement you need an MVC encoder is ridiculous - the MVC encoder is in the TD10. PMB does not transcode, and it puts the MVC files on the blu ray disk in a folder format that conforms to the AVCHD 2.0 3D spec so it will play on ALL players that conform to that standard. As you say, look for that spec (and right now you have to look hard, as this is all brand new).

Whether it's a 'bluray spec' or just an AVCHD spec, it's a 3D bluray that can play on regular (new) consumer bluray players, even the cheap ones, at 108060i MVC. It's a new standard.

What limitations in cutting and trimming? As I said, PMB cannot do transitions, but you can cut and trim. I'll take unconverted 108060i MVC with no transitions over 108024p or 72060p converted anyday, given that is the current choice. Again, it's not sbs or tb, it is MVC, just as produced by the camera.

Even if the bluray group made 108060i mvc the "blu ray" standard in their own minds, old players could not play 108060i MVC blurays. The new players can, whatever the bluray people do or do not do.

Yes, you would not know from the official Sony site that the new players can do this. That is why I posted this information, that you have somewhat obfuscated. Here is the link to the upgrade:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu...99&mdl=BDPS580

The bluray 3D spec versus the 3D 2.0 AVCHD spec distinction is without any relevance.

But I agree PMB is not the ultimate answer, we need Sony Vegas to burn AVCHD 2.0 3D blu rays.
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Old 10-04-2011, 04:44 AM
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Mark, when you say that the PMB generates a "3D Blu Ray", you are simply not right. The 3D Blu Ray is NOT something like an AVCHD 2.0 file structure on a BD-R/RE, but is defined by the Blu Ray consortia.

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...ions-18780.pdf

A 3D Blu Ray has a defined data structure beside the mvc format, and that will not be generated by the PMB 5.8. at all. And you would need an MVC Encoder to merge the files together, and an authoring capability to generate the 3D Blu Ray structure. Both is missing in the PMB. What the PMB does is to burn files to an AVCHD 2.0 file structure. Thats it. Can be enough if you need such a thing.

If you are happy with the PMB use it. But it is no NLE, and from that side everybody who uses an NLE like Vegas or something else will know the difference. For example, how will you do a correction in colour, levels or - especialls for 3D - convergence in the PMB? With the PMB you are lost here really. I can not imagine that Vegas will burn AVCHD 2.0 file structures, since they have an MVC encoder integrated in their products. I know that the SCSdevelopment department is aware of the new PMB due to some emails I had with them about that, but that is it.

And for sure it is important that there is a true 3D Blu Ray spec - because this makes sure that you can generate a 3D Blu Ray, hand it over to your customer, and be sure that he can playback the BD-R. With the PMB you cannot be sure about that at all.

Kind regards,
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:34 AM
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Personally I think this is wonderful, to just get my footage off the cam and onto a disc without any encoding is perfect for folk like me that just like to shoot and burn to disc. In time every player released will be capable of playing AVCHD 2.0 so my only bugbear is that i've had to spend a little bit on a deck that currently supports it, but as I needed another deck its no big deal for me anyway.

Anyone know if the Panasonic BDT300/350 models will be updated in time? or even if the PS3 has been updated for 2.0?
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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"A 3D Blu Ray has a defined data structure beside the mvc format, and that will not be generated by the PMB 5.8. at all."

And why should we care exactly about that particular structure, if the 3D blu ray disk plays in the blu ray player and has the highest quality possible, only limited by the quality put out by the camera? Is the term "3D Blu Ray" copyrighted? Do you work for the consortium?

If it's a blu ray disc that plays MVC 3D blu ray videos in a consumer blu ray player, it's a 3D blu ray disc, if not a '3D Blu Ray' disc.


"And you would need an MVC Encoder to merge the files together."

This is completely wrong - PMB merges 3D MVC files perfectly into a bigger 3D MVC file, if you need to do that (independent of whether you burn a blu ray).

You obviously have never used PMB.

The new capability of PMB and the Sony and Panasonic bluray players is a big step forward for people who want to burn 3D blu rays that play in regular blu ray players without having to conform to the crippling old-technology strict "blu ray" standards.

Now, we hope that Vegas also steps up so we can do more interesting things with the videos from the TD10 without having use 24p or down rez. AVCHD 2.0 is all we need.

"And for sure it is important that there is a true 3D Blu Ray spec - because this makes sure that you can generate a 3D Blu Ray, hand it over to your customer, and be sure that he can playback the BD-R. With the PMB you cannot be sure about that at all."

You are confused. You can be sure the PMB 3D-generated disc will play if the customer has a current 3D Sony blu ray player. AVCHD 2.0 is a standard, just like the 'blu ray' standard you are defending, only better. If the blu ray player is avchd 2.0 compliant, the disc you make with PMB will play. Note that even if PMB made a file structure conforming to what you call the 'Blu Ray' standard, the 10806-i MVC files would not play. All blu ray players would have to be upgraded.

This is a NEW standard. So, obviously old players cannot work with the new files. But the key point is that it is a standard, and you can be absolutely sure that players that conform to the standard will work. It is why standards are useful. It does not matter what standard, as long as it is adopted and is high quality. AVCHD 2.0 is the new standard; it is more flexible and higher quality than the current, out-of-date blu ray standard. Get with it.
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:41 AM
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I've just created a disc with PMB, I updated the program earlier today to enable the AVCHD 2.0 stuff, and when going through the creation of a disc it asks me if I want to create a 2D disc or a 3D disc using AVCHD 2.0 standard, so I chose this and added my few clips and let it do its thing. Now until I get my new Sony bluray deck tomorrow I cant test it, but ive played it back on the pc and it just plays as an AVC file in PowerDVD, when I look at the structure of the disc there is a BDAV folder and 4 other folders in that (BACKUP/PLAYLIST etc etc), now in the stream folder there are the .m2ts files just the same as the clips that I added in PMB, but the file size is EXACTLY the same as the clips that came off the camera, should it be this way? are the 3d bits and bobs already built in to the original m2ts files that came off the cam?
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:03 AM
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Come on boy, do not believe that I am confused because you are not able to understand that different people have different requirements. If your home consumer requirements is only to look to footage without any editing - fine. Stay there. That is a great place for consumer.

But if somebody has to make money by shooting people he has another requirement. People like you who really asks about the worth of specifiactions like 3D Blu Ray - sorry, but that shows only that you never have produced a video that you have sold to a paying customer. Who will complain if he cannot playback a production that he has paid for.

Oh, I have tested the PMB 5.8 especially for your beloved feature, to generat such a nice BD - and then cleaned the system from this rubbish software again. But you are right - it can merge files. But so what? What is a Cutter doing with a tool that is able to merge two files ONLY? Without any color correction? Without any convergence correction? Without level correction? Without simple things like a titler? The list is endless.

Cutter need are serious NLE to perform serious work for serious paying customers. This feature of the PMB is worth nothing to them. But it is worth something to consumer - for sure.

Yes, we have tested the PMB 5.8, more then you can imaginge. We have tested it with different Blu Ray players. A Panasonic DMP-BDT100, a Samsung BD-C9600, an Onkyo 809 and a Panasonic BD-Recorder 701. None of these players have been able to playback such a disk in 3D. At the moment it is a fact, that few exÃ*sting player can playback AVCHD 2.0 file structure generated by PMB 5.8. Ok, that will change over time. But over time we will see 3D Blu Rays with menus, that cannot be generated by home consumer applications like the PMB anyway. That is what we are going for. Have fun!

Kind regards,
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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"What is a Cutter doing with a tool that is able to merge two files ONLY?"

You dont know what you are talking about. PMB merges as many 3D MVC clips as you want it to -two, three, twelve, 100 -into one 3D MVC clip with no transcoding and lickety split. This is yet another mistatements about PMB capabilities.

The fact that the old bluray players you list cannot play 108060i 3D mvc files conforming to the NEW AVCHD 2.0 spec is obvious. That would be true for any new spec, even an official 'Blu Ray' spec. It is NEW, get it? You need an upgraded player, not these obsolete players. If your customers want the highest quality 3D blu ray, you tell them to upgrade. Otherwise, you can still offer your inferior ones they can play on the player they got at Costco.

Are you advocating that there should be no change in the standard? You are free to keep giving your customers jerky 108024p videos transcoded from 108060i or smooth low-resolution 72060p blurays. Or, take videos that try to avoid the limitations of 24p like the successful movie makers.

Personally, I would like 108060p 3D MVC (which PMB can handle).

Why do you insist on pointing out the limitations of PMB, most importnatly including ones it does not have, when this thread is about it having a new capability that is useful to many? And, I have already pointed out its actual limitations.

Maybe you have a commercial conflict of interest, with the free PMB software cutting into your business?

We agree that it would nice to have software that did more than PMB does, but right now it produces a higher quality 3D blu ray that plays on all current Sony blu ray players players (and likely all new Panasonic players) than you can currently produce with Vegas *if the 3D camera is a TD10*.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:46 AM
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This is the most hostile thread I have seen on AVS for some time. Please.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree. I wanted to just spread the good news. I was all enthused, and some guy comes in and dismisses it. I take responsibility for reacting, but it really ruined what is a thread with useful information.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:20 AM
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Well I for one am very glad and grateful that you made this thread, its the perfect solution for someone like myself, to be able to just burn the clips with no encoding with Vegas is exactly what i've been waiting for, to have the proper full 1080 rez instead of 720 and saving the 24hr pc time just to encode the thing! now its a 5 min job to create the disc, ive always loved the ease of use with PMB and this looks to be just the same.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

You are either lying about your use of PMB or you are just incompetent.

That is not spreading good news, nor is it reacting only. That is a character attack.

Sorry that it is impossible to discuss technical points in a sound way, but when you are called "lyer" and "incompetent" - more then enough is too much.

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Old 10-04-2011, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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You are correct. I will delete the phrase. I over-reacted to the the repeated and gratuitous misinformation you kept providing about the PMB software. I apologize.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:50 AM
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Fine, thank you. Lets go back to a less agressive language, and continue the technical discussion.

The point is, that the technical specification of AVCHD 2.0 includes now the important 1080 50p and 1080 60p for 2D - great, since that allows a signifcant quality improvement for 2D. Unfortunately that is of limited use for 3D only. Why?

For stereoscopic 3D it still includes 720 50p and 720 60p, but - and that is new - now also 1080 24p, 1080 50i and 1080 60i. That is the reason why Camcorders like the Sony TD10 can have a footage in both 1080 50p/60p for 2D, but also 1080 50i/60i for 3D, but also the upcoming Panasonic Z10000 will use that. Since that is a specification for the Camcorders, also Panasonic and Sony Camcorder with 1080 50p/60p for 2D and 1080 50i/60i/24p can now use the AVCHD logo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD

Beside that, user can decide to copy such AVCHD 2.0 files to disk, or burn AVCHD files to a disc like the PMB 5.8 does. That is similar to earlier AVCHD disks, as we have seen that for interlaced footage with a lot of tools. But the limitations are the same as we had it in the past for AVCHD disks - you will not be able to generate menus or make a more complex authoring. For a lot of people that will be enough, for sure - and users who do not wish to cut their footage a lot will find here a good, eays and cheap playback capability.

But there are limitations. The first important limitation is, that you are not able to generate 1080 50p/60p in 3D - given the limited bandwidth of hdmi 1.4 that cannot transport two uncompresed 1080 50p/60p signals. So that would be a real desire - but no way at the moment as long as we stick to the existing hdmi specifications.

The second limitation is, that a lot of people do not understand that 720 50p/60p has the same quality as 1080 50i/60i has. Due to interline flicker you loose resolution anyway, especially if you have movement in the video. So if you acquire your 2D or 3D footage with 1080 50i/60i, you can encode the footage to 2D or 3D 720 50p/60p without a significant loss in quality.

The third limitation is, that the AVCHD 2.0 specification has not been implemented in the Blu Ray specification yet. That is the real issue, otherwise it would be easy to author 2D Blu Rays with 1080 50p 60p, and 3D Blu Rays beside 720 50p, 720 60p and 1080 24p also with 1080 50i/60i. So, what we really need is that the Blu Ray specification is adapted to the AVCHD 2.0 specification, then you have a clear authoring solution with menus also for 3D based on 1080 50i/60i. I do not know if and when that will happen - but if it happens, then the AVCHD 2.0 file structures will be of similar use as the AVCHD-DVDs or mini-Blu Rays are today: they will go back to a very limited relevance in reallity. That is a lot of future, given the still high prices for professional 3D authoring tools like the Scnarist or Sony Blu Print. But I think it will come.

So, the PMB 5.8 is fine with what he is doing at the moment. It is less fine that few Blu Ray Player are able to playback AVCHD 2.0 at the moment. But the real question is, if and when the Blu Ray spec will be updated.

At the camcorder side, the best acquisition format for 3D MVC is 1080 24p very likely. Why? Because you do not have the loss due to interline flicker, even if the movement resolution is limited compared to 1080 50i/60i. But I think it is the best compromisse at the moment, and that is the reason why the upcoming Panasonic Z10000 will be of significant interesst for both prosumers and professionals.

That is how I see the whole PMB story within the overall context.

Kind regards,
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:53 PM
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Dear Mark, thanks for sharing the news on PMB. It's really helpfull and tommorow I am going to test the 1080p50i.

And to this wolfgang guy: nobody is interested in your discussion. The essence of Mark's message is new functionality of PMB and not to have a non relevant discussion about blu ray vs avchd or vs what ever!

Chang
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
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And to this wolfgang guy: nobody is interested in your discussion.

Chang

And you can please speak for yourself and not others. There is good info in this thread from everyone involved..... INCLUDING Wolfgang
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:56 AM
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Ok in lame mans terms for a idiot like me.I can now use pmb to burn my 3d movies on to a bluray disk.and play them back on my sony bluray player as long as the sony bluray player supports 2.0 .i do not edit i just want what i shot on a bluray disk .So do i have this right
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:01 AM
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Also where do i find this update i have pmb ver 5.6 and when i press update on the pmb screen it says no updates .
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it is correct: you just select the clips you want and then choose burn to blu ray after selecting the type of blu ray (3D). No conversion, no editing required (unless you want to trim clips).

Here is the link to the PMB 5.8 download:

http://www.sony-asia.com/support/download/449608

If you have a Sony Sx80 bluray player, you need the latest update to play the bluray.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:25 AM
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All this is new to me, and I'm interested in all of it. It looks good to me that there is a way to edit 3D video with smart rendering - no recompressing. That will save a lot of computer time and preserve quality, I would think.

On the other hand, I almost always have to set the convergence in every 3D clip I make. (I use a pair of HD Heros with their 3D sync system.) How do you set the convergence in 3D footage with the Sony TD10? Can you adjust that in the camera while shooting? If so, that would be a pretty great solution overall, so long as you know where you want the convergence plane to be at the time of recording.

Other editing features such as color correction, crossfades, titles, and menus are much more optional or even disposable for my applications. I have ambitions of making a runaway hit on YouTube or perhaps selling a 3D video to Discovery 3D once there is such a thing, but for now I'm just making videos or art, and I don't particularly even want menus, for example. Butt splices are under-appreciated, in my view. I kind of like how they punch a tempo of cuts, especially when I am putting them to music. So, perhaps the system described in this thread would be versatile and robust enough for me, if I ever do get the TD10.

So, what about adjusting convergence?
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:28 AM
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I had the same issue that it wouldnt update within PMB itself, so I grabbed the update file from the Sony support site and did it that way, although it took a few attempts as it kept crapping out when downloading the update.

Ans yes it should do all that you want, my Sony 480 deck has just arrived today so i'll be testing when I get home, ive already burned a disc with PMB so its just a case of connecting and see what happens, should be ok though.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:43 AM
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emporer- How did you do the install? Over top of the original PMB or did you first uninstall original PMB? Maybe also just install into a separate folder.

I haven't looked at this yet and was just curious as you seem to have it working OK.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Yes, it is correct: you just select the clips you want and then choose burn to blu ray after selecting the type of blu ray (3D). No conversion, no editing required (unless you want to trim clips).

Here is the link to the PMB 5.8 download:

http://www.sony-asia.com/support/download/449608

If you have a Sony Sx80 bluray player, you need the latest update to play the bluray.

ok thanks. So say i have movies on pmb already and i want to burn them to a bluray disk.Can you guide me thru the step by step set up i need to do.Like i said im a idiot and dont edit anything i just want to save to a bluray disk and play in my bluray player and see the same 3d stuff like as if i were using the camcorder.This is correct right.Thanks for the help.I wonder if sony is still going to come out with a direct 3d bluray burner like a step up from mthe mc10 deal.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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On PMB upgrade installation: use the link posted above and run the downloadable file. It will upgrade whatever verion of PMB you have (that's what it did for me).

For making the blu ray: First, select the clips within PMB you want in the order you want (you could have trimmed clips if you want, and then chose only the trimmed versions) using cntrl-click. Then select burn to bluray. Then you will get the new choice for burning a 3D bluray. Select that, and burn. It's easy, and quick, since there is no conversion.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

emporer- How did you do the install? Over top of the original PMB or did you first uninstall original PMB? Maybe also just install into a separate folder.

I haven't looked at this yet and was just curious as you seem to have it


working OK.




hey don how are ya ...This maybe good for me huh.lol.I also went into my original pmb and clicked the update deal and it said no updates.i had ver.5.6 .So i went and downloaded the 5.8 off sonys sight and now my ver is 5.8.. But i do not see a 3d bluray sign where is that at in the menus
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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See my post. You first select burn to blu ray, then you will get the choice. As Don would say, the 'Help' menu is your friend (and we are too).
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:35 AM
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See my post. You first select burn to blu ray, then you will get the choice. As Don would say, the 'Help' menu is your friend (and we are too).

ok where is the select burn to bluray at i dont see any such selection
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:37 AM
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i press create disk button that shows dvd regular and then below avchd hd. i see no bluray in the create disk section
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:47 AM
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I have the sony e570 bluray player will that have 2.0
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