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post #181 of 388 Old 10-27-2011, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Ralph, I also think that we are talking here about a more complex combination of two products, with the aim to optimize the overal output (so, to use the better editing skills Vegas offers, but to utilize the 3D BD menu capabilities in PD10 too).

So, if you wish to edit your footage only, either try to stay in the PD10, or in Vegas (what is more complex compared with the PD10).

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post #182 of 388 Old 10-27-2011, 02:14 PM
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Don, you stated it well on your last posting enjoyed your description on editing and that is the truth, it takes a lot of patience and time consuming and trial and error, well put on your posting below, it makes me laugh but its the truth.


"If you don't have the patience to watch grass grow then maybe editing is not for you no matter what software you try to use without making a reasonable attempt at learning to use it. Just remember, editing is not about the tools, it's about story"

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post #183 of 388 Old 10-31-2011, 06:48 PM
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Hi, just wondering which Vegas you guy's are using, have Platinum 9, so you find it easier editing on Vegas also use Pinnacle HD Studio 14.

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post #184 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 03:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, 3D was first time supported with Vegas Pro 10, now also with Vegas Pro 11 (there is still the introduction price reduced promotion to purchase the upgrade cheaper).

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post #185 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 08:11 AM
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Zapper- There are two versions of Vegas that support 3D editing and Blu Ray 3D. Vegas Pro is the more expensive tool and has lots more features, most of which you might never use. Then there is Vegas HD Platinum v11 which supports 3D and is much lower cost, however, when I tested it I had observed a bug in the 5.1 audio that was fixed in Vegas Pro v 10e. I'm sure they will eventually fix that too but who knows when. I bought the Platinum v11 but never use it and have since uninstalled it. Been a Vegas Pro user with 3 licenses for many years. In my opinion, there are only two really good solutions for 3D editing today, Power Director 10 and Vegas Pro v11 I wouldn't mess with the Vegas Platinum v11. I think for the money- PD 10 is a better investment. Then if you need mor power in your editing, just get Vegas Pro later on and combine it wityh PD10 for Blu Ray menus. I'm having great success with the two as posted by the developed work flow. I'm just working now to find a better quality for 1080p but for me 720p SBS half is a tool for 3D BluRay w menus.
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post #186 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, there was an update for Vegas Moviestudio 11 HD Platinum some few days ago. Have not tested that really, but I saw that it is there and maybe is is now better:


Quote:


Notable fixes/changes in version 11.0 (Build 256) Fixed a bug that could cause a crash when displaying event properties for 3D clips from a Sony TD10 camera. Fixed a bug that could cause text from the Titles & Text plug-in to drift after dragging the text in the Video Preview window. Fixed a bug that could cause line breaks in the Titles & Text plug-in to preview with incorrect line spacing. Fixed a bug that could cause an error when rendering a Sony AVC file with a bit rate of less than 25 Mbps. Fixed a bug that could cause MVC clips from a Sony TD10 camera to be imported incorrectly from the Device Explorer. Fixed a bug that could cause Vegas Movie Studio to hang when previewing MTS files in the Trimmer window. Added Russian-language support to Vegas Movie Studio HD.


And you know Don: you can install one Vegas license at up to 3 PCs.

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post #187 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 11:05 AM
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Wolfgang- I have had some success in eliminating the streaks artifacts from the Full HD 1080i AVC MC encoder. I am experimenting with TB Full to reduce the extreme wide frame that seems to be the trouble with MC encoder. If I use the frame size of 1920 wide by 2160 high and set for Top Bottom Full, I can port into PD10 and set the video size for TB. The resolution is back to Full HD and the artifacts are gone. Can you do some testing there to confirm? This is only an intermediate frame size as the final Blu Ray will still be 1080 x 1920 24p and be frame packed. I'm also keeping the frame rate at 29.97. letting D10 do the final to 24p. While my monitor does support TB it does not look as good as SBS so I won't worry until I see the final result on Blu Ray.

Just set up a bunch of clips rendered to this in Vegas and ported to PD10 to author a BD-RE. Added a bunch of additional 3D particle effects to test as well. So far the preview in anaglyph looks perfect. It's rendering now so we'll see how it compares.

Just saw your post. Thanks for the notice on the update to Platinum 11. I won't be doing any testing as I have too many other tests to run.

Yes, I was aware of the 3 machine upgrade license. I won the third licensed copy by being a good student and paying attention in class. The first two I bought because I had 5 work stations here. Glad to be retired from that rat race meeting TV show deadlines. This is more fun! I got a fourth from a paying attention in class last NAB again but never registered it and another member here got that one from me. My first exposure to Vegas was before it was Vegas. Back then it was just a video timeline in Sound Forge.
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post #188 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 11:34 AM
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Rendered pretty fast. Looks fantastic! Still have that little bit of judder but at least now I have an artifact free rendering workflow that is not as soft looking as SBS half. I'm going to also test the TB Full on 720p60 x1280 too. Only thing to really evaluate there is whether to do the 720p conversion in Vegas or just do it in PD10. The render I did for TB Full in Vegas was at 29.97 fps.

Among other testing was I mixed some MVC clips and some MPO clips on the timeline in PD10 and they rendered together with the TB Full clips without any glitch, including ripple wave transitions and some 3D transitions. All looked good.
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post #189 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Well Don, you know I never have been able to repro your MC-AVC encoder issue, what could be due to the fact that I use 50i Pal footage. To my option - but only my opinion, there should not be a difference between sbs ful and top/bottom full. But that is pure theorie. If it works better with t/b full, for sure take that.

Should we test that with old or the new Vegas Pro 11 build - the new 425/426 was launched two hour ago!

The major question if you do the resizing to 720 60p in Vegas or the PD10 is the quality of the deinterlacer - here is Vegas not superior. But you can use plugins like the Yadif plugin. And then is the question what is better really.

I cannot participate in testing here really - given the point that there is still no 720 50p template in PD10 for my PAL footage. The better way for PAL would be to produce high-quality 1080 24p in Vegas, and then use that in the PD10 to generate good 1080 24p BD-Rs. Yes, the conversion 50i to 24p works great with PAL footage, but is not fine for NTSC footage.

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post #190 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 06:01 PM
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Downloaded Vegas 11 Platinum have not tried it yet, hopefully by Wednesday will edit and so forth, by the way a internet site has the Vegas 11 for $50 less then the Vegas site.

So let me see if I understand your system you edit in Vegas then transfer to PD10? is this correct..

Thanks

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post #191 of 388 Old 11-01-2011, 10:51 PM
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Wolfgang- I tested your settings again with the new update ( Build 425) and I still get the streaks through the left side image. Also, rendering to progressive in Vegas was too juddery so I'm back to using 1920 2160i TB Full Once in PD10, I'll decide whether the BD authoring should be in 720 x 1280 60p or 1080 24p x 1920.

Zapper- Yes, in part. Plus once a Vegas rendering is on the timeline in PD10 I can also add some of the effects they have in the can that are unique to PD10. They have some nice 3D effects I've tested such as snow and smoke etc. What I'm discovering is that PD 10 and Vegas Pro are very complimentary.
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post #192 of 388 Old 11-02-2011, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Wolfgang- I tested your settings again with the new update ( Build 425) and I still get the streaks through the left side image.


I would really like to be able to repro that, to be able to foreward that to SCS.

I can only guess that there is something wrong with the deinterlacing - you have enabled in the project settings deinterlacing as "blend" or "interpolate"? If there would be "none", then this would be the error very likely.

The other question is: do you still use the progressive format? Another approach would be to render to sbs full or t/b full, but stay interlaced. Import that in the PD10 and make there the authoring - to whatever you like.

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post #193 of 388 Old 11-02-2011, 07:59 AM
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Quote:


I can only guess that there is something wrong with the deinterlacing - you have enabled in the project settings deinterlacing as "blend" or "interpolate"? If there would be "none", then this would be the error very likely.

I will look into the project settings and do some more testing this afternoon. Keep in mind that- 1. I see this trouble immediately with the rendered file from Vegas using SBS Full. I don't need to see it after porting into PD10. 2. Using TB Full the problem is completely gone.

I have played around with both progressive and upper field first in the render as settings for SBS full and neither fixes the artifact. And remember, SBS Half doesn't have the problem either. I did test TB Full with progressive but this produced a 15 FPS frame rate which was strange.
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post #194 of 388 Old 11-02-2011, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure, I understood that this is an issue direct after the vegas export. But we have to pin down what the issue is really, at the moment that is not clear to me (because here I did not see that - for whatever reason)

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post #195 of 388 Old 11-02-2011, 08:40 AM
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Do you need a NTSC MVC clip to test it on?
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post #196 of 388 Old 11-02-2011, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Ja, would be a good idea. Do you have a download link?

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post #197 of 388 Old 11-02-2011, 11:48 AM
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I'm in a burn mode for another final test of 1080 24P from TB Full to view tonight on the big screen. When that is done I will send you a couple files ( I'll send you a link to my web server that is where you can download them. It will be later today. Watch your PM for the links.
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post #198 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 12:26 AM
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Check your PM for a link.
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post #199 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, I am downloading the files!

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post #200 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 06:07 AM
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More problems-

I started having trouble in the create disk rendering of the PD10 timeline. I've tested 6 different projects with different video and different menus now and they all fail in rendering at exactly 21% into the render. The error code given is 80004005. This started yesterday.

Has anyone else seen this?
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post #201 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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There is a known bug that if you change 2D menus to 3D menus, the authoring stops. But I do not know if that is the error code you report - have not seen that error code before.

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post #202 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 09:16 AM
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I got it working by shutting down the DTS in the create disk and doing a render now with Dolby Digital 5.1. I sent CL Tech support a trouble ticket on it and am waiting to hear back. With DTS activated, it was failing at 21% even with a 10 second clip and no menus, same error code.

I was wondering what the 30 day limit notice I recall seeing was all about when I first installed it back on the 13th of October. Obviously, the 30 days is not up yet.

In pouring through the manual, I also saw a statement that said- subtitles and menus are not supported with SBS source video when outputting to 3DBD. Were you aware of that? Obviously I did create a disk with 3D menus in SBS half source video last week.

I also see they released an update already. I haven't updated yet. Need to run another test first
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post #203 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 09:36 AM
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One problem with creating 3D Blu-ray disks with PD10 that I, and others have reported is the failure of the authoring step to go to completion. No error message appears, but consulting TM shows that processor activity on my 8-cores has dropped from 95-99% to less than 12% and the progress of the authoring simply stops. I have had this problem occur on one of the two supplied 3D menus (that cannot be modified) as well as on a custom 3D menu that I created with Menu Designer.

I have now been able to replicate this problem and definitely identify what is causing the problem. In my 3D menus created in Menu Designer that failed to complete the authoring step, I had enabled 3D depth on the button text. Every single time I do that, disc authoring fails to complete. Simply disabling 3D depth (but leaving an mpo 3D still captured from my TD10 footage as the background image) and disc authoring and burning complete with no problems. Apparently the 3D depth option has a bug in it that causes some problem when applied to the text. Interestingly enough, when I create titles for use in my PD10 timeline, I can enable the 3D Depth control for the text of those titles and I can even enable 3D Depth for scrolling credits against a mpo still at then end of my production, but anytime in Menu Designer that I enable 3D Depth on the button text, the disc authoring fails to complete.

I have just completed the editing in PD10 of a one hour concert recorded with my Sony HDR-TD10 in 3D with 5.1 surround. I had the camera on a tripod and panned judiciously and very slowly. The video 3D video turned out beautifully. I had no problems with it in PD10 and I used animated titles, scrolling credits, extensive keyframe control of the audio and some key framing of the video to fade to black between segments of the concert. I had no crashes of PD10 during the editing of the entire concert. It took slightly under 4 hours to author and burn this project to Blu-ray DVD in PD10. As a total editing, menu authoring, and disk burning solution for 3D video from the TD10 , I find PD10 to be unique at this time.

The one nagging problem that I have posted on the Cyberlink forum is that I have not been able to find a way to get rid of the chapter thumbnails that PD10 insists on placing in my Chapters menu. I finally worked around the problem by creating my own button as a solid rectangle that covered the thumbnail placeholder image in Menu Designer and this worked, but I am amazed that there is not an option just to not display chapter thumbnail images in one's 3D menu and instead just display conventional solid buttons.

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post #204 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 12:34 PM
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Tom- are you using DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 in PD10? I'm currently doing two renders now with the same source video. One for 720 60P and the other in 1080 24p. I want to see how each plays.

You are way ahead of me in PD10 menu creation. I've only modified the placements in the standard one and haven't had any problems but I have not ventured into Z depth at all in PD10. I suppose that is something I should avoid based on your report. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Note- Lots of interesting stuff including new 3D menus in the Director Zone. Downloaded a bunch but haven't tested any yet.
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post #205 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 07:42 PM
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Don,

I am using DD 5.1 for the sound in my PD10 projects. The concert I recorded in 3D and DD5.1 turned out very nicely, and I was surpassed at how quickly (about 4 hours) that it took to burn the 3D Blu-ray disk for this 58 minute project.

As for enabling 3D depth in Menu Designer, I can only repeat that every single time I have done this (about 4-5 times), the 3D menu has failed to complete the authoring step. Yes, I have been using the Director Zone as well and it is a nice idea.

Today I prepared a standard definition widescreen DVD of my concert project in PD10. It completed the authoring with no problems but gave an error message at 1% into the burn step. Fortunately, I had instructed it to prepare a DVD folder and so I just used ImgBrn to burn the project to DVD. I watched this on my Sony projector and it really looked good for a SD DVD with no real artifacting at all.

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post #206 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 09:07 PM
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Tom, if you have some time, can you do a render of your good project but just select DTS rather than DD 5.1. My DTS of menu driven 3DBD stops at 21% on every project, both computers and both original and the new update here. I got a response from CL on it but none of their suggestions fixed the problem.
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post #207 of 388 Old 11-03-2011, 11:25 PM
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I am really convinced now that my work flow from TD10 to Vegas to PD10 to 3DBD will be to first render to TopBottom Full using AVC MC codec at 1080i and no audio. Then render the sound tracks to a 5.1 PCM wav using 16bit 48K.
These two are imported to Power Director 10 and menus created. The output set for 720 60P x 1280. The reason is that after rendering the same project both ways and burning to disk, the 1080 24p is much too juddery and this to my eyes on the big screen is quite annoying. The softer image is ever so slight difference so I can sacrifice that for now.
The final output to DTS is a brighter crisper sound than the DD so if I can use my latest work around to not crash using DTS I will make that as part of my standard work flow. Hopefully, CL will get a handle on these errors in their rendering

Maybe next year I will consider purchasing a pro version for shooting in 24P. If I really need a project shot in 24P I can use my twin 3D camera rig but this is not something I will take into a tourist area with crowds for the day. Maybe I will try it for an evening fireworks shoot but mostly a single compact 3D cam with a monopod is much better in crowds. In the end, I see the real goal here is to shoot in native 1080 24P to get good smooth judder free images and have the greater image detail too.
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post #208 of 388 Old 11-04-2011, 10:03 AM
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Don,

I'll certainly give a try at rendering my concert project to DTS, but it will be a day or two before I can get this done as I have my Mac Pro tied up on other projects at the moment.

Tom
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post #209 of 388 Old 11-04-2011, 02:28 PM
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I know on Vegas you can adjust the parallax, but on PD10 I can't find a way.

Is there anyway to do so (besides 2D to 3D or menus) I'd like to take some 3D footage and add a bit more depth and see how it looks on PD10. Vegas looks alright, but I get some ghosting always after I set it.

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post #210 of 388 Old 11-05-2011, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

I know on Vegas you can adjust the parallax, but on PD10 I can't find a way.

Is there anyway to do so (besides 2D to 3D or menus) I'd like to take some 3D footage and add a bit more depth and see how it looks on PD10. Vegas looks alright, but I get some ghosting always after I set it.

What I do is monitor my 3D screen as I make the adjustments and learn where the limits are. However with 3D this limit will change as your screen size will change. So, I find that I can often have a different setting limit with the bigger screen.

This is a very complex issue to explain. So much so that in 3D Moviemaking Benard Mendiburu resorts to a 3D wireframe animation on a disk to demonstrate how this parallax limitation changes depending on a number of factors that include viewing screen size, and viewer distance. When you shoot using a camcorder's auto 3D adjust settings, you are relying on the camcorder designer to make this adjustment based on their design. When you pull it out from that size, you are venturing outside the safe limits and at risk of artifacting ( ghosting) Still when you shoot with auto 3D you can position your camera outside the recommended shooting distances min and max and create trouble that the auto can't deal with.
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