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post #331 of 564 Old 04-22-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Don,

I'm going to give DVDFab virtual drive a try. Daemon Tools Lite works well, except that when used with PowerDVD 12, PDVD doesn't recognize the iso files created by Vegas. It has no problem with commercial 3D Blu-ray rips, but it balks at Vegas iso files. It's always something.

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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I use DVD FAB virtual drive and it coexists with my internal BD drives and Vegas no problem. It's a free utility.

...

Finally got Powerdvd to play 3D iso files generated by Vegas and stored on my hard drive by using DVDFab virtual drive, as Don recommended. This had been a frustration to me for a year. I was playing my 3D Vegas projects in Stereoscopic Player when using Daemon Tools lite, but no more. Want to spread the word about DVDFab's good compatibility with Vegas and with PowerDVD, because nothing else works like this combo for playback of 3D iso on the hard drive. Thanks, y'all.
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post #332 of 564 Old 04-22-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I haven't run any formal tests, but anecdotal evidence on my two i7 systems seems to suggest that the all-SSD system is faster than the one with striped hard drives. It's not something I would have predicted, Wolfgang, because (as you say) the MVC file sizes are small. I have 3x 7200rpm drives in RAID0, and they're plenty fast, but the SSD system seems to free up the CPU for faster rendering. The SSD system shows much higher CPU utilization during rendering than the HDD system.

That said, I'm still doubtful any current GPU (workstation or not) can accelerate MVC adequately enough to get the kind of fluid real time playback we've gotten used to with standard AVCHD files. I've suspected for some time that the GPU makers are going to have to add hardware support for MVC to do that. But that's just my conjecture. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

Joe, I was considering running something like this to detect bottlenecks when playing a Vegas timeline:

http://www.moo0.com/?top=http://www....SystemMonitor/


What's your thoughts on this?
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post #333 of 564 Old 04-22-2012, 10:53 PM
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I haven't used that software, Don, but it looks like it could be revealing. I use a few common Windows 7 gadgets to monitor RAM, threads, HDD, and network activity as I render. It's all very informal at this point. When I rendered almost identical timelines the other day, the curious thing I noted was that the i7 2600k with the hard drive array was using about 80% of the 8 threads, while the i7 3930 was using over 95% of the 12 threads. There are lots of variables between these two systems other than hard drives, of course, but it still struck me as odd. The 3930 system rendered over 3x faster. Neither system was overclocked.

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post #334 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I haven't used that software, Don, but it looks like it could be revealing. I use a few common Windows 7 gadgets to monitor RAM, threads, HDD, and network activity as I render. It's all very informal at this point. When I rendered almost identical timelines the other day, the curious thing I noted was that the i7 2600k with the hard drive array was using about 80% of the 8 threads, while the i7 3930 was using over 95% of the 12 threads. There are lots of variables between these two systems other than hard drives, of course, but it still struck me as odd. The 3930 system rendered over 3x faster. Neither system was overclocked.

My viewpoint on this subject is a bit different. I look to save me work time. To do that the first goal is to get the timeline playback time to be realtime with no buffering. That means to me that first, the system must feed the video at a rate that flows fast enough that the processor is not waiting for frames off storage. I call this bottleneck #1. Of course this is only the first step in timeline playback as we then need to process all the timeline's effects, color correction, pan and cropping, cg, as well as the codec itself. This would be the GPU/CPU being powerful enough to calculate the timeline content for preview. Note that none of this has anything to do with final rendering time. So far all I'm looking at and. For is a bottleneck where one part of the system is holding up other parts. Maybe the tool to evaluate bottlenecks is the best measuring tool to use. So far, everything we're looking at are operations in the system that are working while we are at the work station, hands on. If the system is performing properly, any time we play the timeline we should be not having to wait to make a decision on what changes to make or give our approval to move on. IMO, this is the area that needs priority for performance. Now, assume the approvals are in and we like the program story and are ready to render the final file for burning to 3D BD or authoring program. This rendering is not hands on requiring out attention so therefore it, IMO, is less important as I can walk away and sleep, watch a movie or do something else. likely, of the timeline playback is running. At top performance, the final render will also be reasonably fast.

When I'm editing there is nothing more annoying to me than having to wait to see the result of my recent change. That wait is the biggest bottleneck and my highest priority to resolve. I agree with the engineer from AMD in that first order of business is to feed the frames off the storage so fast the processor doesn't have to wait, second is for the processor(s) to compute the timeline to. View at real time and adequate resolution to decide if the changes are proper. He feels that the FirePro 5900 will get that result for two MVC timelines and color corrections and other pans and crops as long as storage can deliver.

I look forward to running the tests next week when I get home and grading my system. I now have 4 large projects in the can and will be shooting one more in 2 weeks so this has considerable importance. I really had thought that my 2 7200 RPM raid0 drives would be adequate but if you are still having trouble with 3 then I need to make the move to SSD. It's a matter of cost too because these projects don't have a budget and need to be done with hobby money. Gone are the days when I would adjust my billing to cover these costs.
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post #335 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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By the way, with Vegas Pro 11 in the latest build I see some advantage from my Geforce GTX 570 that I have in the system - using CUDA.

Preview capabilities are improved with MVC-footage, even after adding filters like levels, color corrector, color curves and the 3D-plugin playback behaviour is better with enabled CUDA, compared with disabled CUDA.

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post #336 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 12:31 PM
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Don,

We're in perfect agreement about the number one priority when working on a project. I need to see the results of my changes instantaneously. If I can't, it stops me in my tracks. I was just saying that one would think a 3-drive RAID0 would be fast enough not to create a bottleneck for playback. But that doesn't seem to be the case with my i7 2600k system. The one thing that may be causing the rendering delay is that my drives are software striped in Windows. I've done this in the past to make it easier to transfer the dynamic Windows array to another computer (where a different hardware striping method might make it unreadable in a new system). That never created a problem that I noted before, but 3D is just so demanding, it requires a re-think of everything. I'll do a hardware stripe in BIOS and see if that improves things.

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post #337 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

By the way, with Vegas Pro 11 in the latest build I see some advantage from my Geforce GTX 570 that I have in the system - using CUDA.

Preview capabilities are improved with MVC-footage, even after adding filters like levels, color corrector, color curves and the 3D-plugin playback behaviour is better with enabled CUDA, compared with disabled CUDA.

IIRC, in Vegas 10 I had to enable CUDA manually, but in 11 it was done automatically for my GeForce 560. When you say "3D-plugin" is there some optional 3D feature I'm not aware of? I upgraded to Vegas 11 only recently, and basically I've been on a hiatus from editing for a few months. I'm rusty.

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post #338 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 01:28 PM
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My Panasonic Z10000 should be here shortly. I'm looking forward to having an all-in-one editing solution for my Blu-ray 3D discs with the 24p Panny files. I have to get fully up to speed with the Vegas convergence controls. I haven't done much with them, because I did it in either Cineform FirstLight or the Edius 3D trial before.

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post #339 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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The 3D plugin is only the plugin where you adjust points like the horizontal shift - or keystone or whatever you need for the adjustment.

With Vegas, the experience is more that is still needs in the first place processor power for the preview. With my overclocked i7 2600K running with 4.4 Ghz I have no preview issue really with MVC-files, but what I have seen is that CUDA can help in addition. And I run the files from my raid5 system, so that is fine too - I still think that it is not necessary to invest in a SSD for the media files.

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post #340 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 05:36 PM
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Does anyone know for sure if Cineform Studio Pro supports JVC MVC 3D files natively? The trial I downloaded sees them only as 2D. I've Googled a bunch, but the answer is unclear. If there's no way to convert them automatically, I can always use MVCtoAVI (with Cineform or Matrox codecs), but I'd prefer a completely automated process. Some reports I've read say there is support, but I don't see how to activate it. It certainly isn't automatic.

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post #341 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

The 3D plugin is only the plugin where you adjust points like the horizontal shift - or keystone or whatever you need for the adjustment.

With Vegas, the experience is more that is still needs in the first place processor power for the preview. With my overclocked i7 2600K running with 4.4 Ghz I have no preview issue really with MVC-files, but what I have seen is that CUDA can help in addition. And I run the files from my raid5 system, so that is fine too - I still think that it is not necessary to invest in a SSD for the media files.

I'm curious what drives you are using and how did you stripe them. I'd love to avoid going to SSD as well because the capacity would be so low for the cost.
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post #342 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I run here 4x Hitachi 7K2000 2TB as raid 5, and use the onboard controller of my Asus P8Z68-V Pro.

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post #343 of 564 Old 04-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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I just got a response from Cineform. GoPro still doesn't support the JVC's mp4 file wrapper. Because of the massive file size of the Cineform intermediates, SSDs are the best way for me to edit JVC 3D video without Edius. I can slide back into the Cineform/Vegas workflow easily, though it's much more tedious now that I've experienced Edius. Oh, well, I'll have plenty to keep me occupied in the next couple of months.

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post #344 of 564 Old 04-24-2012, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I think you could use the Canopus HQ codec also with Vegas. Maybe another idea...

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post #345 of 564 Old 04-25-2012, 11:27 AM
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Yes, real time playback off the Vegas timeline would be the most important factor in work efficiency for me, too- far more than final rendering time. I am also interested in any tools people have to help determine the ways to achieve that real time preview. My suspicion is that my bottleneck is in processing, not in speed off the hard drives, but it would be good to have ways to measure and determine those things, or to follow from someone who has done the tests.
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post #346 of 564 Old 04-26-2012, 05:19 PM
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FWIW, Sony just released build 322
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post #347 of 564 Old 04-26-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickMcKaha View Post

Yes, real time playback off the Vegas timeline would be the most important factor in work efficiency for me, too- far more than final rendering time. I am also interested in any tools people have to help determine the ways to achieve that real time preview. My suspicion is that my bottleneck is in processing, not in speed off the hard drives, but it would be good to have ways to measure and determine those things, or to follow from someone who has done the tests.

I've tried Vegas on lesser processors, and it grinds to a halt. The CPU is definitely a major factor in how smoothly the timeline plays back.

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post #348 of 564 Old 04-26-2012, 05:57 PM
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I've discovered that my problem with my JVC camcorder may simply be that it doesn't display properly on some of the newer 3D TVs. If so, I've wasted a couple of months over nothing. I have it back now and await information from JVC whether others are reporting issues with 60i MVC playback from the TD1. I know this isn't terribly relevant to Vegas, but I wonder if others in the thread who use the JVC might have some experience with this problem.

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post #349 of 564 Old 04-27-2012, 07:16 AM
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FYI, I just tried to replace a malfuntioning Sony S580 3D Blu-ray player with a Sony 590. The first thing I did was to play back some 3D Blu-ray files burned to DVD from iso's created in Vegas. None of them worked. They had all worked in the Sony 580. I took the Sony back and got a Samsung. Those same discs worked without issue. 3D Blu-ray iso files burned to DVD disc never worked on my Panasonic players, either. Apparently, Sony has removed that capabiity from some of its newer players.

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post #350 of 564 Old 04-27-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

FYI, I just tried to replace a malfuntioning Sony S580 3D Blu-ray player with a Sony 590. The first thing I did was to play back some 3D Blu-ray files burned to DVD from iso's created in Vegas. None of them worked. They had all worked in the Sony 580. I took the Sony back and got a Samsung. Those same discs worked without issue. 3D Blu-ray iso files burned to DVD disc never worked on my Panasonic players, either. Apparently, Sony has removed that capabiity from some of its newer players.

Joe:

I have had similar perplexing problems with my two Sony Blu Ray players, the 580 and 780. Both played a 3D Blu Ray disk created from TD10 clips using the old PMB version 5.8.

After I updated the firmware to the latest version, neither the 580 or 780 will play the same disk they played before the firmware update.

PMB has been replaced by Sony Play Memories Home which is actually pretty versastile. This afternoon, I burned a few 3D Blu Ray disks using this new program. It played without issue on the 780. I did not try the 580 since it is now hooked up to a conventional HD TV.

Maybe the firmware update on the 580 / 780 is at fault. Who knows? At least I can depend upon the Play Memories Home to burn 3D Blu Ray disks that the 780 will play.

Marty
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post #351 of 564 Old 04-27-2012, 01:21 PM
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Did some testing of Vegas playback and a "Bottleneck" evaluation software and determined that i have several bottlenecks. The (GPU HD6850) is not able to play at full 23.976 fps full resolution. It can play at 8fps using dynamic ram. Bottleneck at full resolution is both GPU and seek time on hard drives.

I picked up a 120GB SSD SATA III drive today and will do some additional testing. I also ordered the top gun of Graphics card as recommended by Sony for Vegas 3D playback. It's the ATI FirePro V8800. It has 1600 stream processors!
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post #352 of 564 Old 04-27-2012, 01:44 PM
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Wow, that's a pricey card, but if it does the job it will be worth it. I can't wait for your report, Don. Did you use the tool you talked about before to measure those bottlenecks?

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post #353 of 564 Old 04-28-2012, 05:06 AM
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Yes, Joe. The Bottleneck tool appears to be worth the price ( FREE)

There was a significant improvement in the playback of the single MVC file using the SSD vs. twin 7200 RPM Seagate drives. I first examined the typical folder size of my projects and discovered my most aggressive programs will require up to about 110Gb so I decided that I didn't need to spend $600 for a large SSD. I found a deal on one for $140 at CompUSA that formats to 118GB and runs at 6Gb/sec. I don't understand why the twin RAID 0 drives weren't adequate. To eliminate the drive and test my GPU card I did a shift B of a section of the timeline with 4 Gb of system ram reserved and played that and the GPU was not able to play that faster than 18 frames per second.

I have to run the tests again as I saw that my antivirus and network were active too during the above tests.

The thing that worried me was having enough room to fit the V8800 card in my case. It is long, 10.75" long but I have 11.5 inches of room so I'm good. According to one review, the V8800 is supposed to be twice as fast as the Quadro5000. I figure, it is worth the price if it works to my expectations. If not, then I at least know there is nothing faster and need to plan the next upgrade for MB and CPU.

I wonder if it is possible to get more speed from the SSD's by using a stripe pair? My case has enough 2.5" drive slots for two SSD's. Would that yield 2 x 6 or 12 Gb/sec?

BTW- the MVC files from the TD10 are only running at 1.8 Gb/sec from the SSD while the twin paired high res clips are at 5.25Gb/sec This is about 85-90% of the rated capacity of the SSD. So it appears that regardless of how powerful my GPU and CPU is, I still will be inadequate for realtime playback unless I can RAID the SSD's for more performance and/or resolve to using dynamic ram playback. This reasoning is following exactly what the engineer from AMD told me.
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post #354 of 564 Old 04-28-2012, 06:53 AM
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I've read a few articles on striped SSDs, and the results look very good - over one TB/sec with a couple of 6gbps OCZ Agility cards in one test. I've yet to try it, but I will. The potential problem is with performance degradation over time. SSDs perform really well when new, but may slow down in RAID configurations if TRIM mode is not supported. But the details of how to prevent that slowdown are still fuzzy to me (and may require special techniques and/or hardware). Samsung is touting the superiority of some of its newer drives in this area, but I haven't read any actual performance tests yet.

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post #355 of 564 Old 04-28-2012, 08:12 AM
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Let me know what you learn on anything regarding Raid SSD. After I test the V8800, that would be my next move. I'm a little concerned over degradation, however. Do I understand that to be just for striped SSD? Or, all SSD over time?

The test with antivirus and the LAN cable unplugged went well. Considerable improvement in FPS rate. The MVC clip played at 23-25 fps. Should be at 29.94. The Paired Hi res clip played at 20FPS, should be at 23.976. I could see activity in the antivirus and internet Lan activity when before and now that is zero. Only thing running is system and Vegas now. Done with testing until the card comes in.

Have to get these two TD10's unloaded of 200Gb of clips plus the stills and panoramas off the other cameras. I have a ton of video to edit! I shot one piece on the Bellagio Gardens that I think you will enjoy. Lots of flowers and plenty of color. It has Disney beat!
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post #356 of 564 Old 04-28-2012, 01:00 PM
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Windows 7 has built-in support for SSDs. If the drive has TRIM support (most do these days), the routines keep the SSD running well. RAIDing SSDs changes that, since TRIM doesn't work with a lot of systems if the SSDs are striped. If two SSDs are new and freshly striped, they should perform phenomenally. Over time, that might change. There are ways around the problem, but I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to know how best to go about it. It can vary depending on the SSD and the system. I'll pass along what I learn. I have a couple of OCZ Agility 3 SSDs that I plan to stripe soon. I did all my initial 3D editing on the first one, and I recently got a second, identical SSD, in part to find out how well they'd perform when RAIDed (and because I need the extra space for bigger projects).

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post #357 of 564 Old 04-28-2012, 05:41 PM
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I have seen recommendations to store paired hi res clips on separate drives. That might work just as well as putting the pair onto one raid. I do that with my GoPro clips, and then set my temp directory for rendering on a third drive, with the final rendering going to a directory on the same drive as that temp folder.
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post #358 of 564 Old 04-30-2012, 10:41 PM
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Don,

You can try the 24 SSD Raid for 2Gb/s
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post #359 of 564 Old 04-30-2012, 11:32 PM
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I got the ATI FirePro V8800 in today and while the installation was a bit difficult, I did finally get everything working thanks to Sony's help file info on drivers.

The first let down of the graphics card was it did not come with the necessary adapters for my two monitors. I had to go shopping and lucky me, CompUSA did carry the right adapters. I needed one to go from Display Port to HDMI and another to go to Display Port to VGA. Once I got them in I finished the hardware install. It's a big card and just clears my large case depth.

The lesson I had to learn was that to install the driver set and new version of the catalyst control software, I had to wipe clean all remnants of the older version. The installer did not do that automatically. With a clean computer and only 800x600 display on one monitor, I was able to proceed. The disk that came with the board was way too old and caused the system to lock up. I was getting a very bad feeling but decided to research the ATI website for the most recent driver and catalyst set. After several reboots to clean the system of the bad drivers, I was able to get the new updated driver and catalyst controller installed. Now on to test Vegas Pro with what I was told by Sony is the top of the line graphics card to do 3D.

The first test was with a collection of MVC 3D clips from the TD10, first butt edited and then using 2 second dissolves. I set the timeline for 29.97 fps and ran some tests. All video was stored on the new OCZ 6Gb/s SSD 120Gb. The timeline played at 29.97 fps solid until I hit the 2 second dissolve and then it slowed to 22-26 fps but kept playing and then recovered to 29.97 fps as soon as it was back to playing just a single MVC clip.
I ran a second test with two paired clips cut and dissolved. Each pair was recorded with the TD10 in 2D mode FX bit rate 23.976 FPS. The timeline played the clips at a solid 23.976 FPS completely through the dissolve. The clips had full keyframes for color balance fast and slomo and 3D adjustments. Pan and crop effects were also tested and the playback never budged off of 23.976 fps. I went back and tested the same clips on the Raid0 twin hard drives and it tried to play at 23.976 but often hesitated and the fps backed down to 16-21 fps.

Clearly, the system does need both SATA III SSD for the source clips as well as this top gun of graphics card to play the timeline with effects and dissolves at a steady 23.976 fps including dissolves. For the frame rate of 29.97, the timeline will play but when a dissolve is present the playback stutters. The FirePro V8800 just is not quite powerful enough for handling two MVC clips in a dissolve. This was disappointing. In case you are wondering, I did some testing where the MVC clips were played back at 23.976 and it still had hesitation. It appears it is not just the frame rate just also the need to decode the base/dependent file too that is the bottleneck.

Either way, I am pleased that I can now edit at real time playback at 23.976 fps and almost as good with MVC clips at 29.97 fps. Until they make an even faster card, this will have to do.

The cost of this upgrade was:

ATI FirePro V8800 $1150
Two adapters $ 32
SSD drive 120Gb $ 140
Total $1322
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post #360 of 564 Old 05-01-2012, 12:21 AM
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Hello,
I'm still trying to find a best possible solution to play Sony hdr-td10 files with a minimum or none quality loss. As I mentioned in another thread burning a disk in PMB and playing it in Sony BDP S480 does not work - that player plays a disk at 720p60 resolution ONLY - a huge quality loss for a passive 3D display, compare to original 1080i. Burning the same file in PD10 causes stuttering in playback - most likely due to the conversion from 60i to 24p.
So far I'm not able to get any 3D playback in Vegas 11. I did place stereoscopic mode of a clip to "pair with next stream", tried to produce 1920x2160 full TB file as another project , but every time I try to burn it to a disk, it produces correct disk structure, ssif files, but zero 3D effect.
I'm trying to avoid PD10, since I don't care much about menus, and PD10 is just another unnecessary re-encoding step for me.
I guess finding a correct path in Vegas pro 11 to burn hdr-td10 is a best solution, but is there a walk-through for it? Ideally with yadif deinterlacer.
Thanks in advance.
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