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Vegas Pro 11 released

39K views 563 replies 33 participants last post by  Wolfgang S. 
#1 ·
#77 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/21249045



I think what you are looking for is the DVD training video for beginners. It will get you up to speed on many of the basic functions in Vegas but you can always skip over those things that don't interest you.

This is what I recommend for all people who want to learn Vegas very fast- Once you complete these and want to do more VASST has other DVD's on the new additions such as editing 3D you can buy and in half a day be well on your way to working efficiently.


This won't teach you editing but rather Vegas Pro as a tool for editing.

Correct and perfect Don, Thank you.
 
#78 ·
1080 24p for 3D using 2 HDR TD10s:


I shot the test using the HDR TD10's in 2D 1080 24p then paired and did auto correct in Vegas. I did some pans left and right zooms and tilts up and down. Then I repeated the same sequence using 1080 60i I also did a test using 1080 24p with the image stabilizer active.


After I burned the three test clips to a blu Ray BD-RE at 1080 24p x 1920 25Mbs template in Vegas Pro I reviewed the three tests on my Sony VPL VW90ES projector. There was hardly any difference I could detect between the clips shot at 1080 60i and 1080 24p. The test clip of 1080 24p with optical stabilizer tended to blur more than the video with it shut off, confirming the suggestion that with twin camera shooting, optical stabilization can throw the cams out of sync slightly.


While, technically, we know that shooting in native 24p is better than shooting in 60i for a 1080 24p x 1920 Blu Ray rendering because there is no 2/3 pull down which has built in error. Visually, I had a hard time seeing the difference on the Sony Projector.


Using a copy of my older Vegas Pro 10e, the pull down conversion was quite jerky especially in the left right pan shots. It does seem that the newer latest version of Vegas Pro v11 build 425 is very good but shooting in 24p to begin with eliminates all potential conversion errors.


The test demonstrated there wasn't a dramatic difference between shooting in 24p vs. 60i converted to 24p by Vegas Pro when looking at scene motion on the Sony VPL VW90ES.


I repeated the viewing on my Vizio which is a 60 Hz passive panel. Both clips showed a dramatic increase in jerky motion overall when compared to the Sony Projector. The big difference here is that the Sony is a 240 Hz projector and the Vizio is a 60 hz panel. I can't say for certain there was a huge difference on the 60 Hz panel between the 60i conversion to 24p and the native 24p clips. Overall, if I had to put money on it, the most dramatic difference was the use of a 240 Hz monitor and that Sony Vegas Pro's 60i to 24p rendering conversion in v11 is now quite good. This last observation was a surprise to me and I was disappointed that I didn't see a significant difference to justify a huge expense in shooting native 24p. Instead, to be honest with myself, It has to be considered a mental comfort knowing that I have no conversion errors rather than actually seeing a difference. As for the cost of these 24p 3D camcorders, maybe the more prudent investment would be to just buy the 240 Hz monitor if you really want to see some improvement in the presentation.
 
#79 ·
Don, thank you for this important test. Interesting result I think.


Maybe we have to wait how the 1080 24p mode of a Z10000 will come out really, to make some more comparisons. Even if that may be hard for me with a PAL TD10 - this unit cannot use 24p in 2D, but only 25p.... what is an additional legitimation for me to acquire the Z10000. Beside all other good points like better manual controlls and so on.
 
#81 ·
Vegas imports the TD10 of pal footage fine. Conversion from 50i to 24p can be done in another way for pal footage then 60i footage - by slowing down the footage by 4% and deinterlacing.
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/21252936


The test demonstrated there wasn't a dramatic difference between shooting in 24p vs. 60i converted to 24p by Vegas Pro when looking at scene motion on the Sony VPL VW90ES.


I repeated the viewing on my Vizio which is a 60 Hz passive panel. Both clips showed a dramatic increase in jerky motion overall when compared to the Sony Projector. The big difference here is that the Sony is a 240 Hz projector and the Vizio is a 60 hz panel. I can't say for certain there was a huge difference on the 60 Hz panel between the 60i conversion to 24p and the native 24p clips. Overall, if I had to put money on it, the most dramatic difference was the use of a 240 Hz monitor and that Sony Vegas Pro's 60i to 24p rendering conversion in v11 is now quite good. This last observation was a surprise to me and I was disappointed that I didn't see a significant difference to justify a huge expense in shooting native 24p.

Two things: It's logical 24p isn't going to be better than 60i, since 60i is quite similar to 30p, which has more data per second than 24p. A 24p conversion has a built in jerkiness of motion due to the "pull down."


The passive-3D monitor at 60Hz is like comparing apples to oranges with a 240Hz active-3D shutter projector. LG has passive panels with better specs, including both 120Hz and 240Hz. Do you recall which Vizio model you're using?
 
#84 ·
#85 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. /forum/post/21257572


Well, the articel is available online, but it is in German:

http://www.videoaktiv.de/20111104656...die-Augen.html


and it is not for free since I have sold that to this magazine. Do not know if you speak or can read German?

I can say Haxenbauer and count to ten thousand.
 
#86 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams /forum/post/21257549


Two things: It's logical 24p isn't going to be better than 60i, since 60i is quite similar to 30p, which has more data per second than 24p. A 24p conversion has a built in jerkiness of motion due to the "pull down."


The passive-3D monitor at 60Hz is like comparing apples to oranges with a 240Hz active-3D shutter projector. LG has passive panels with better specs, including both 120Hz and 240Hz. Do you recall which Vizio model you're using?

What I'm claiming is that with a 240 Hz monitor, the jerkiness is pretty much hidden. Same disk played on a 60 Hz monitor is obvious to the viewer. Worse is the fact that 24p native is also obviously visible on the 60 Hz monitor.


No argument in the theory that 30p has more frames per second than 24p. I do believe that with a 240 hz display, the difference is difficult to detect. And, the difference between a conversion and a native is very difficult to detect in both 240 Hz and 60 Hz. displays. Bottom line- there is a magic to 240 Hz displays when having to deal with 24p or 30p or 60i as it all looks good.


It is unfair to offer what may be available in displays in the future as a solution; when I bought this Vizio there was no LG 240Hz 32" 3D LCD panels being offered. I don't know that there are even today but maybe next year. A quick search shows that LG today has 240 Hz 47" panels but even their 32" models still are only 60 Hz.


Unfortunately, I have certain restrictions limiting my choices in selecting a monitor- In order of importance:

1. The obvious one is I can't buy what doesn't exist.


2. Must be 3D passive technology for the edit workstation. I can't work long hours wearing active shutter glasses due to eye fatigue.

3. Can't be bigger than 32" since bigger won't fit in my work space.


I did not list cost because I had a budget to spend 4 times what I paid for the Vizio so if I could have purchased a 240 Hz monitor last June in 32" passive 3D I would have.



Next year, if I can get a 240 Hz monitor to replace this Vizio, I will likely do that. The difference for either 24fps native or converted 60i to 24p is dramatic enough to justify the change.




On the 17th, weather permitting, I plan to shoot another fireworks performance using my twin TD10 rig in 1080 24p native. I think fireworks is the most challenging 3D subject to shoot in 3D. I know now that 24p will display on 240 Hz monitor fine. Not so fine on the 60 Hz monitor. But then neither does 60i. But once I leave the edit phase, I don't care how it looks on the 60 Hz monitor.
 
#87 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams /forum/post/21257549


Two things: It's logical 24p isn't going to be better than 60i, since 60i is quite similar to 30p, which has more data per second than 24p. A 24p conversion has a built in jerkiness of motion due to the "pull down."

Well, it depends what you are looking for. If you look for smoother movements, it may be true that 50i/60i has a better movement resolution.


If you look into line resolution, 50i/60i will always loose compared with a progressive aqcuired format. Simply due to the interline flicker, what reduces your line resolution. Especially for footage with movement, but also with footage witout movement.


And the major advantage for 3D: 24p can be authored worldwide - so for PAL and NTSC - on 3D Blu Ray, without a quality reduction due to a conversion, without jerkiness at all. There is a possible conversin from 50i to 24p without a loot of quality loss, but the conversion from 60i to 24p is even harder. That is the reason why a lot of people look for a 3D camcorder like the Z10000 to be able to shoot in 1080 24p.


And we never ever can be sure what kind of display the customer is using. But 24p is a worldwide standard, you will find that today in every 3D HDTV today.
 
#88 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. /forum/post/21259943


Well, it depends what you are looking for. If you look for smoother movements, it may be true that 50i/60i has a better movement resolution.


If you look into line resolution, 50i/60i will always loose compared with a progressive aqcuired format. Simply due to the interline flicker, what reduces your line resolution. Especially for footage with movement, but also with footage witout movement.


And the major advantage for 3D: 24p can be authored worldwide - so for PAL and NTSC - on 3D Blu Ray, without a quality reduction due to a conversion, without jerkiness at all. There is a possible conversin from 50i to 24p without a loot of quality loss, but the conversion from 60i to 24p is even harder. That is the reason why a lot of people look for a 3D camcorder like the Z10000 to be able to shoot in 1080 24p.


And we never ever can be sure what kind of display the customer is using. But 24p is a worldwide standard, you will find that today in every 3D HDTV today.

24p was never a canvas for conveying reality. It was promoted by Edison based on mechanical speed limitations of contraptions that slammed film a frame at a time through a camera and projector pathway.


Here's an interesting tidbit. The movie, "The Hobbit," a 3D movie currently in production, is being shot in 48fps which is "less taxing to watch." See http://insidemovies.ew.com/2011/04/1...peter-jackson/


In the article at the link above, there is a link to a demo of higher frame rates.


With all the content available to viewers, the story matters a lot more than the canvas. Excuses made in the past that attempt to assign a benefit to 24p are complete BS. Technology allows higher frame rates.


Europe's use of 50i is simply to keep TV screens from beating against 50Hz lighting. 50Hz lighting and TV is annoying to me. I suppose its something to get used to. Agreed that converting 50i to 24p has a less noticeable pull down.


Is 60Hz annoying to Europeans that visit 60Hz countries?


Think about putting new 48fps-3D movies on media. Will they use AVCHD 2.0 for 3D disks sold? Probably not. The only way to see 48fps 3D will be in theaters equipped to show it.
 
#89 ·
I know quite well that the Hobbit is taken with something about 40 Reds with 48p - what is great and will be fun. But it would be nice to have also on Blu Ray - but the Blu Ray consortia has even not been willing to define 1080 50p/60p for 2D Blu Ray, and not 1080 50i/60i for 3D Blu Ray (what would be possible).


Sure I would like to have 48p for 3D - or also 50p. Progressive is the most important point. But for 3D Blu Ray 1080 48p will not fly - give the limitations in bandwith even for hdmi 1.4. Maybe with another standard....



So frankly spoken, I do not know what it will help us at the moment. With Vegas 10/11 you can decide to encode 3D to MVC 720 50p for PAL, 720 60p for NTSC and 1080 24p for the world. Fine. But that is it. For the future we will see.


And well, I have visited the States a lot of time, and never filled annoyed by the power or light working with 60 Hz. Taking videos with 50i can be tricky sometimes if lighting has 60Hz, but beside that if was fine for me.
 
#90 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. /forum/post/21260885


I know quite well that the Hobbit is taken with something about 40 Reds with 48p - what is great and will be fun. But it would be nice to have also on Blu Ray - but the Blu Ray consortia has even not been willing to define 1080 50p/60p for 2D Blu Ray, and not 1080 50i/60i for 3D Blu Ray (what would be possible).


Sure I would like to have 48p for 3D - or also 50p. Progressive is the most important point. But for 3D Blu Ray 1080 48p will not fly - give the limitations in bandwith even for hdmi 1.4. Maybe with another standard....



So frankly spoken, I do not know what it will help us at the moment. With Vegas 10/11 you can decide to encode 3D to MVC 720 50p for PAL, 720 60p for NTSC and 1080 24p for the world. Fine. But that is it. For the future we will see.


And well, I have visited the States a lot of time, and never filled annoyed by the power or light working with 60 Hz. Taking videos with 50i can be tricky sometimes if lighting has 60Hz, but beside that if was fine for me.

Could apply a pull down to the 48fps, showing some frames twice, resulting in 1080i60-3D or 1080i50-3D using AVCHD 2.0 on bluray media This would already play on Sony S480 S580 S780 blu ray players.


Since we tolerate a pull down for 24p, I think this 48p pull down would also be tolerable. The result would display more of the motion from the 48p source.


Tying this into SVP11, I suspect it won't be long until we see AVCHD 2.0 support from that, as it is currently ridiculous that the free PMB product supports AVCHD 2.0 disk burning while SVP currently doesn't. This is only software, not like the PS3 which has likely run into a hardware dead end lacking AVCHD 2.0.


Have you used a European 50i equivalent to the Sony AVCHD 2.0 supporting bluray players which do 60i from the TD10 camcorder without recode?
 
#91 ·
For a conversion from 48p to PAL 50i I would speed up the video in such a way, that I would compress 50 frames in one second - and then either end up with 50p, or if I wish to interlace then convert the p to i by dropping every second line in every frame. That is something that can be done with Vegas in a quite easy way, by disabling resampling.


The other way round works similar, but since there is no render template for rendering MVC 1080 48p at least the MVC encoder cannot be used. Maybe another encoder like the MC-AVC encoder, but I have not tested that really.


And a similar way can be used to convert 24p to 50i, even if we should avoid to interpolate the missing frames. Footage that could be burned to Blu Ray for 2D, but not for 3D. This all works in Vegas if we disable resampling with a minimum loss in quality.


To my opinion, support of an BDAV structure will not take place at Vegas - since that is no professional structure at all. I assume that Vegas will stick to BDMV structures. Maybe producers like Cyberlink will support those structures in future with their PD10.


There is the PMB 5.8 also for the 50i version of the TD10 - you can generate BDAV structures but I do not use that, since such BDAV-BDs will not run on every 3D BD player, beside the latest Sony Blu Ray players with the latest firmware. To avoid reencoding is not possible if you edit the footage in an NLE like Vegas, where you apply things like brigtness, contrast or color corrections.
 
#92 ·
Hello,


thanks Wolfgang for the tip of converting 50i to 24p.

I have test some panning video from TD10E with vegas.

- direct 3DBR from vegas --> too jerky and blur

- slowdown with 4% and vegas deinterlacer -> too blurry !

- slowdown and Yadif --> very good ! one or two jitter in a 50s video (as Don said, it's perhaps caused by AV and other background programs). But the rendering is long.

- have tested also with Mike Crash smart deinterlacing plugin (x64) but have some artefacts.


With my twin cam recorded at 60p, I have not noticed these issues when converting to 3D BR (24p).
 
#95 ·
I thought I read somewhere that Sony fixed/improved the deinterlace issue in Vegas 11? After further testing with build 425, the deinterlacer is broken, not (just) 60i to 24p. For example, when converting 60i to 30p, stuttered motion is also present (highest quality option "interpolate frames"): looks like 12-15fps (actually a useful effect sometimes, but not in this case). Vegas 11b425 ran smoothly (real-time-ish) on 12 2.93GHz Core GTX285 (2010 MacPro)- no crashes (very little CPU utilization (both editing & rendering)- less cores with higher clock should run faster).


While authoring 24p for Bluray requires a more complex solution (I round-trip to PPro/AE using Sony YUV or Cineform, etc.), youtube's ffmpeg (libavformat+libavcodec) does a great job deinterlacing AVCHD 2.0 60i 16Mbps footage: no interlace artifacts and smooth motion:
(select 1080p for best quality).


Also, when using Win7's "Play To" feature, the AVCHD 2.0 60i 16Mbps footage looks fantastic on the Samsung D8000: does a great job cleaning up compression artifacts and the motion is incredibly smooth.
 
#97 ·
Thanks. ffmpeg is command line only. The libraries that make up ffmpeg could be used to build something custom, but the code only compiles with MINGW/Cygwin on Windows (probably easier to install Linux in a virtual machine, cross compile custom libraries for Windows, then add to a Windows project).


If doing SBS, you could render out to a very large, lightly compressed format, then run ffmpeg from the command line: ffmpeg and x264 are very, very fast. When (if) ffmpeg supports MVC, you should be able to input L+R interlaced files and get an MVC compliant 24p output at the max bitrate (~38Mbps), which would be optimal for 3D BD. You might ask Peter Wimmer at http://3dtv.at/Index_en.aspx if they finished adding MVC support to ffmpeg and how to use it (saw some posts on doom9 about this around a year ago).


You could also use ffmpeg to deinterlace L+R to lightly compressed files to 24p, then bring back into an editor to finish (would take a lot of disk space, but should be reasonably fast).
 
#98 ·

Quote:
I thought I read somewhere that Sony fixed/improved the deinterlace issue in Vegas 11? After further testing with build 425, the deinterlacer is broken, not (just) 60i to 24p. For example, when converting 60i to 30p, stuttered motion is also present (highest quality option "interpolate frames"): looks like 12-15fps

Sorry, John, you are still having trouble with your computer and smooth rendering. I, too had the results you described but all is well now after spending time tweaking my system for dedicated rendering, burning. The key final steps were to completely eliminate my antivirus scanner and pull the ethernet cable to prevent any web activity in the background. I shut down as many background operations as possible. This was the key to creating a commercial like smooth motion video on Blu Ray with 1080 24p.


Of course Vegas 11 425 helped as well as the latest build of Power Director 10. Your computer is more powerful than mine so it is quite likely you just have way too much going on in the background that is stealing CPU cycles.


There were some other tweaks I made to the hard drives for better buffering too but I'll need to access the video editing computer to let you know what changes I made there. Those changes were deep OS changes suggested by CL when I asked them what to do about the stuttering.
 
#99 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by itou31 /forum/post/21269901


The FH1 sanyo record at 1920x1080 at 60p @ 24Mbits. But they don't have a good stabilisation. But with a tripod and with enough light, they perform very well.

I need to check out that mode on my TD10. I have not yet tried it yet but supposedly, it is the "PS" setting for 1080 60p x 1920 ( 2D only) The bit rate listed is 28 Mbs. Should be interesting in Twin camera 3D system.
 
#100 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/21271216


Sorry, John, you are still having trouble with your computer and smooth rendering.

Hey Don, real-time editing, including transitions is possible with Vegas 11b425 on TD10 MVC footage on my machine. It's likely that a 4- or 6-core box running at >3GHz with a GTX 570 or higher will be faster than my machine when running Vegas (does not use much of the 12 cores- very low CPU utilization at all times- real-time as well as rendering).


The only system issue with Vegas is I must not run AE at the same time- there appears to be a GPU resource issue. Otherwise, Vegas 11 runs OK. CPU utilization when not running any apps is 0%: this is my development box as well as audio/video production box. My own CPU/GPU image processing code runs without any issues.


Vegas 11 b425 (and earlier) have a broken deinterlacer/resampler. I guessed based on experience ~15fps was being output when 24 or 30 was requested:



This is a bug that has been there since Vegas 10. It's why many folks look for workarounds to 'jerky motion', 'stuttering', etc. The output file is broken: it's not a playback/resource issue. You can check it yourself using VLC.
 
#101 ·
John- You are not choosing the proper render frame rate. You have your Vegas rendering set to half frame rate. The 14.98 number is exactly half the drop frame rate for 30 fps ( 29.97)


I suggest the only bug you have is the way you are using Vegas.




Also, you should know that when you are not running any apps your CPU is not at 0%. I don't know how you determined that but there are a large number of OS processes operational in additional to your AV program that will access your CPU. While you can't eliminate all of them, the basic OS cpu access is quite small compared to an AV file scanner. If you know how to use system resource monitor you should see this in real time. You should observe that with no apps running, that the AV is likely to be the most active background process that can be shut down without harming the OS as long as you avoid internet access. I just pull the plug to be sure. Once you do that your CPU will still not be at 0% but you will know your CPU is dedicated to one app, the burning of your Blu Ray.


BTW- My trouble came when my 3D BD renders were working at top bit rates and resolution, not when rendering for 720 60p 1280 25kbs Only had trouble with 1080 24p x 1920 at VBR 14kbs to 50kbs plus DTS audio at CBR The stutter was at random places on the disk. These most likely were happening when the system was taking a break from burning and doing some AV process. That is why shutting off AV finally eliminated my trouble during the 3DBD burn.


But, at this point your trouble seems to be you just don't have the right settings to create your initial render.
 
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