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post #241 of 564 Old 03-17-2012, 03:12 PM
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I see what you mean now Don. Is there any advantage to rendering that way versus soloing the track and rendering the traditional way?

P.S. I didn't have that codec/extension you mentioned. I rendered MP4's this time. How can I get that codec?
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post #242 of 564 Old 03-17-2012, 04:48 PM
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Hello

I am French and I do not speak English escusez me

I want to thank Mr. Don Landis and Mr. Wolfangs for boards

I use Vegas Pro and Fuji W3 11 10 and PowerDirector
I'm not a pro but an avid 3D
Passive TV LG 47 "and I will buy the Sony TD10
I also have the aiptek IH3 but I am disappointed

That 3D bright
cordially
Jacques
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post #243 of 564 Old 03-17-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

I see what you mean now Don. Is there any advantage to rendering that way versus soloing the track and rendering the traditional way?

P.S. I didn't have that codec/extension you mentioned. I rendered MP4's this time. How can I get that codec?

The "!" does solo the track. I'm sorry I'm not that familiar with the differences or lack of features in Vegas Movie Studio. But, to answer your question, I'm of the opinion that Sony uses that mxf file codec to minimize losses when you just need to do a pre render. It's not meant for distribution but used internally for file consolidation tasks IIRC. Remember you need to be careful that when you prerender using a compression scheme you will be accumulating rendering artifacts. I think Sony uses a default in the Tools / Render to new track that minimizes these artifacts. Wolfgang may have more specific knowledge on this than I do. I just know that is the procedure we were taught in the classes ( Sony University and Vasst ) So, with that said, I feel MP4 is not a wise choice but look for something that offers as little compression artifacts as you can find. MP4 uses a large GOP too. Sometimes the render could cause more trouble than the original issue you tried to fix.
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post #244 of 564 Old 03-17-2012, 05:41 PM
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Jacques- Welcome to the Forum. Don't worry about the language. We will work through that. Wolfgang is from Austria and he may know of some French language forums you can enjoy too.

I'm a student of Bernard Mendiburu who authored the book "3D Movie Making" It is first published in France. Look for it. I recommend it for a good understanding of how 3D works and how to shoot it.
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post #245 of 564 Old 03-17-2012, 05:46 PM
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cakefoo-

I just saw you live in Phoenix. I wonder if you know David Devoucoux? He has been in the video production business for a long time. We go way back. He is responsible for talking me into Vegas back when it was just sound forge with a video track from Sonic Foundry. Last I heard he is producing travel and documentary videos. Like me he is bordering on retirement age but you should try to meet him. Great guy to know.
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post #246 of 564 Old 03-17-2012, 06:42 PM
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MP4 was the extension but the codec was XDCAM EX @ 35mbps.
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

cakefoo-

I just saw you live in Phoenix. I wonder if you know David Devoucoux? He has been in the video production business for a long time. We go way back. He is responsible for talking me into Vegas back when it was just sound forge with a video track from Sonic Foundry. Last I heard he is producing travel and documentary videos. Like me he is bordering on retirement age but you should try to meet him. Great guy to know.

Cool! I checked out his Vimeo profile.
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post #247 of 564 Old 03-18-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
MP4 was the extension but the codec was XDCAM EX @ 35mbps.

If you're satisfied with the results, I'm not going to disagree with you. But, I take it the Vegas MS does not have the {Tools/ render to new track} method so you're stuck with a lossy compression. Sorry I don't have Vegas MS installed to verify. I should install it on my old Vista machine so I can check stuff like this.

I will disagree that rendering to extremely high bit rates from sources that are lower bit rate is a plus gain. You don't gain in quality, rather you gain in noise which is not desirable. You can't get higher quality video by taking a low bit rate and rerender to a higher bit rate.

Really, that {Tools/ Render to new Track} is the tool intended by Sony to be used for this purpose. FWIW- Final Cut Pro and I believe Avid also use the Media eXchange Format for all prerenders. It's a lossless way to do the prerenders. The downside is it does require more hard drive storage. It preserves original quality and does not add additional video noise.
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post #248 of 564 Old 03-18-2012, 07:33 PM
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Quote:


I will disagree that rendering to extremely high bit rates from sources that are lower bit rate is a plus gain. You don't gain in quality, rather you gain in noise which is not desirable. You can't get higher quality video by taking a low bit rate and rerender to a higher bit rate.

Hmm? I never said it gains quality...

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I take it the Vegas MS does not have the {Tools/ render to new track} method so you're stuck with a lossy compression.

Movie Studio does have the render to new track option. I used it to render the MP4 file referred to in post #241. I was asking if there was a benefit to rendering to a new track versus rendering via the "Make Movie" button. It would appear the only advantage is that render to new track brings the clip into the project automatically after finishing.

I believe the MXF files you referred to would have been lossy as well. According to the XDCAM wiki, that MXF option appears to be MPEG HD422 @50mbps. What I used was MPEG HD @35mbps and 720p 60fps in an MP4 container (MXF container optional in Vegas somewhere in advanced codec options tabs I guess).

Advantage of the 50mbps MPEG HD422 format:
Quote:


MPEG HD422 doubles the chroma-resolution compared to the previous generations of high-definition video XDCAM formats. To accommodate the improved chroma detail, video bitrate has been increased to 50 Mbit/s. This format is used only in XDCAM HD422 products.

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post #249 of 564 Old 03-20-2012, 03:29 AM
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A question to Don Landis,
When you edit a frequent recourse is to render multiple clips to a file for later import it into the timeline. I have clips from TD10e and edited with SV11.
What 3D output format can be reimported with little loss of quality?
The tests with MVC format do not work.
Thanks in advance.
Octavio
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post #250 of 564 Old 03-20-2012, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOAT09 View Post

A question to Don Landis,
When you edit a frequent recourse is to render multiple clips to a file for later import it into the timeline. I have clips from TD10e and edited with SV11.
What 3D output format can be reimported with little loss of quality?
The tests with MVC format do not work.
Thanks in advance.
Octavio

To consolidate a number of tracks to one track, and/or corrections and effects, use TOOLS/render to new track as opposed to "render as" which you normally use for FINAL render of the project. This is considered lossless while all your compressed render as codecs are considered lossy.

I have used this many times with 2D but haven't used it with my 3D projects so, sorry, I can't say that it is as flawless as 2D. I will try it later today and get back to you.
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post #251 of 564 Old 03-20-2012, 07:23 AM
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Cakefoo-

I don't agree that you can double the resolution quality by using these higher xdcam codecs. I have never seen any method like this double resolution, chroma or otherwise. GIGO. seems to always rule. But, I also believe if you feel your method is better then who am I to disagree.

GIGO- garbage in garbage out.
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post #252 of 564 Old 03-20-2012, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Typicall mpeg2-HD is not an intermediate codec, as we know that from both Cineform or Canopus HQ. Those codecs are superior to maintain the quality, even after some render steps. But mpeg2 is based on an older codec, compared with H.264, what has superior ways for error compensation. So, I would not stick to an mpeg2 codec for the purpose of an intemediate codec - even if color sample may be better comapared to MVC-AVC or AVCHD.

Those codecs could also be used to render for a later import in the timeline.

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post #253 of 564 Old 03-20-2012, 10:57 AM
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cakefoo- Just got home and was able to take a quick look at Vegas Pro V11 with respect to Tools Render to new track.

I see now what you are concerned with. What I would do is if you are attempting to render a file that is 1080 60i x 1920 then select the template codec that best matches. As I see it you have two choices, one with CBR and one with VBR. CBR will generate the largest file size but you'll need to evaluate and see visually if it is better than CBR. Both will save as an mxf file and both will auto place on the timeline. The second factor is the resolution as with a 3D file it will render out to what 3D setting you have selected. anaglyph SBS TB etc. This is not good, IMO, as you end up with a 3D file that is not MVC but SBS or anaglyph or TB etc.

Wolfgang and others will recall I had suggested Sony add a rendering template to generate an MVC file ( MTS) the same as the TD10 specs for the next version ( V11) but they did not do that. Had they done that, we would be home free.

While I can now see this Tool / render to new track is not suited as it is in 2D clips, the method still should be used for correcting paired clips and rendering prior to pairing.
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post #254 of 564 Old 03-20-2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Cakefoo-

I don't agree that you can double the resolution quality by using these higher xdcam codecs. I have never seen any method like this double resolution, chroma or otherwise. GIGO. seems to always rule. But, I also believe if you feel your method is better then who am I to disagree.

They aren't saying that quality doubles compared to source, but rather compared to other codecs.
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post #255 of 564 Old 03-21-2012, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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You will not double quality (whatever that means), if you change the color sampling from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 only.

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post #256 of 564 Old 03-21-2012, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

They aren't saying that quality doubles compared to source, but rather compared to other codecs.

Well then that's pretty open ended. I've seen some pretty ugly codecs in my time.

In science we usually try to establish control points as a means of reference as well as a base line. The baseline in this case study would be the original video. Not defining "other codecs" could mean all others or one in particular.

I guess my point remains- if you don't want to use a recommended procedure, you find one that works to your satisfaction and go with it. It's what I do.
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post #257 of 564 Old 03-21-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Well then that's pretty open ended. I've seen some pretty ugly codecs in my time.

Posted this already: "MPEG HD422 doubles the chroma-resolution compared to the previous generations of high-definition video XDCAM formats."
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post #258 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 01:17 PM
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Anyone know offhand how the Vegas upgrade procedure works? I've just finished my Core i7 3930 build, and I'm ready to upgrade from V10 to V11. Is there a way to upgrade onto a new computer without installing V10 first?

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post #259 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 01:31 PM
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BTW, you can upgrade to Vegas Pro 11 for $133 until the end of March (not the LE version). See this link.

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post #260 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 02:06 PM
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Hi, I am new here, would appreciate for your help.
For 3D slide shows, is the Vegas Pro 11 right tool? Can the full resolution movie be created? Not the 2x half picture. Can it output MVC format, or what output needs to be used.

Stereo pictures are created with StereoPhoto Maker. What stereo pictures format Vegas will accept:jpg, jps, MPO?
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post #261 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 02:17 PM
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mpo files can be dropped right on the timeline and are natively recognized by Vegas. Project properties tell Vegas how you want to view the files (anaglyph or whatever). You can output (render) any way you want for making a 3D movie - 3D blurays, etc.
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post #262 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 02:43 PM
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Joe- Go ahead and install your Vegas Pro whatever version you last had on your new hard drive. Use your serial number to activate it. Once activated you can go to the link in the HELP menu or just go to the website and buy the upgrade to V11. It will install the upgrade and activate that. If you don't have the original install file you can download it again on the Sony Website.
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post #263 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 04:02 PM
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Markr041, thanks for your answer.
Few things to clarify:
Can Vegas make full resolution Full HD Blu-ray 3D using MVC type codec, in order to not lose half of the horizontal resolution, what is the case making SBS.
Can Vegas render ISO file of Blu-ray 3D to watch on media file player?
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post #264 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 04:35 PM
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1. Yes, but no menus (108024p or 72060p). Play in any 3D bluray player.

2. Yes it can make a bluray iso placed on the hard drive.
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post #265 of 564 Old 03-23-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- Go ahead and install your Vegas Pro whatever version you last had on your new hard drive. Use your serial number to activate it. Once activated you can go to the link in the HELP menu or just go to the website and buy the upgrade to V11. It will install the upgrade and activate that. If you don't have the original install file you can download it again on the Sony Website.

When I upgraded to V11, I was allowed simply to enter my serial number for Vegas 10 and do the download. Easy - no need to install V10 first. I've had issues in the past with PowerDVD trying to do an upgrade, and I was hoping Sony was now more civilized.

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post #266 of 564 Old 03-25-2012, 12:36 AM
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Joe- when I need to install on a fresh machine, I have the Sony link to my registered software which allows me to just click on Sony Vegas Pro and it will install my latest version I have and lists my serial number as well. Once installed, I then have to go to SCS and pay for the upgrade. I didn't know you already upgraded. If you have the file you can just install it on the next computer and use your serial number. Sony has had an excellent install and upgrade path since version 1. You may need a new install file for switching from 32 bit to 64 bit however on older Vegas Pro.
Don't use Power DVD so I'm not sure how they work. Power Director was also easy when I installed on my new computer. I just used the install file and serial number and it registered fine.
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post #267 of 564 Old 03-31-2012, 04:48 PM
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Wolfgang- Hopefully you are monitoring this thread-
I have a problem in Vegas and I would like you to test if you can.

For post production efficiency I decided to pair all my ultra stereobase clips in one veg file of Vegas. I did color correction of both Left and right clips, paired them and then applied the stereoscopic 3D correction using auto correct for each clip using keyframes to redo the auto correct as I changed zoom for the twin cameras. Now each clip is correct parallax all the way through this part of the project took me several weeks to complete as I have close to 4 hours and a couple hundred of paired clips. Then I opened a second instance of Vegas and built my main project file starting with my VO and music score. This project won't need any sound effects so the audio is pretty simple. Now here's were the problem started. I selected the video clip in one instance of Vegas and pasted it into the timeline of the second project and the video will not display 3D correctly. Additionally, I can't get the auto correct to work on the pasted clip. The clip looks 2D pushed back in 3D space. I tried both Paste and paste insert and neither will paste the complete 3D clip.

To move things along, I decided to work backwards and added the audio tracks to my veg project with all the paired clips. This is making for an enormous veg project file but it is working.

Do you have any idea why the paired, auto corrected 3D clips won't paste properly into the second veg file?
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post #268 of 564 Old 03-31-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Don,

what I understood was that you copy/past an event from the timeline of one vegas instance to a second vegas instance, and loose the 3D settings of that event.

I have tried that with both a clip of the Z10K but also the TD10 - here it works fine.

So if you say you use paired clips - so I assume they are from your TD10 but shoot with two TD10s, each as 2D file then paired to 3D?

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post #269 of 564 Old 04-01-2012, 02:22 AM
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yes, it is just with paired clips. It works fine with TD10 MVC clips. It seems like the pairing and right eye clip ? is missing from the paste but the other adjustments, 3D stereoscopic correction and color correction are all there.

I did some more testing on this and find that I can copy and paste the stereo paired clip within the same instance of Vegas with no loss or trouble.

I will do another test and this time I will mark the clips with a left eye and right eye so I confirm if one is being dropped but it sure seems that is what is happening.

If you don't know, I'll be placing this on top of my list for discussion with the experts at Sony Vegas classes in a couple weeks.

Edit-
OK I did the labeled test and it clearly loses the right eye in the pair. Guess I will take this one to Sony.
LL
LL
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post #270 of 564 Old 04-01-2012, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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So you have identified another bug.

Could you upload me two very short testclips that I could pair?

I would like to feed that back in the betatesting...

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