New Sony 3D Cam HDR-TD20VE - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 187 Old 05-19-2012, 10:24 AM
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I am using Vegas Pro 11 on a Mac under Boot Camp with Windows 64-bit Professional to edit Sony HDR-TD10 MVC footage and ultimately burn a Blu-ray disk with the rendered output.

I am aware of no editors that will run on Mac OS X for 3D MVC footage as no Mac editors allow direct import of the MVC files. Neither FCP X or Adobe's Premiere Pro CS6 will allow one to ingest MVC files.

Tom
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post #92 of 187 Old 05-28-2012, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

2 weeks ago i send my td 20 to sony germany because of the different focus from
left and right i report with post 57 and 58 here.

i got it today back from the service.
a very short test tells me that the big focus differece are gone.
i had not much time today to check but i will do it over the weekend again in details
to see if that was really the case and will report about it.

i can confirm the bug is not anymore there.
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post #93 of 187 Old 07-08-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomWheeler View Post

I am using Vegas Pro 11 on a Mac under Boot Camp with Windows 64-bit Professional to edit Sony HDR-TD10 MVC footage and ultimately burn a Blu-ray disk with the rendered output.


I am aware of no editors that will run on Mac OS X for 3D MVC footage as no Mac editors allow direct import of the MVC files. Neither FCP X or Adobe's Premiere Pro CS6 will allow one to ingest MVC files.


Tom


Tom: Do you know if the lesser expensive Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum will work with this set-up? Also, are you able to save the MVC files to another drive instead of the Blu-ray? Lastly, what graphics card are you using with your Mac set-up.

Thanks in advance.

Max
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post #94 of 187 Old 07-08-2012, 11:41 AM
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Vegas Moviestudio is generated from Vegas Pro always - so there is no reason why VMS should not work in such a configuration.

There were some issues when using the MVC encoder - because you can start the encoder in a separate way too. But some user have reported that this does not work. So I am not sure if that works really. But what you could do is to extract the mvc-files from the BD-ISO.

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post #95 of 187 Old 09-04-2012, 12:33 AM
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Hello
Can somebody upload a short TD20 raw file?
I like to see the sharpness improvement on my HDTV.
I'm not satisfied with my TD10, only in 2D mode.

Thanks in advance!
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post #96 of 187 Old 12-23-2012, 12:37 AM
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Do any of you HDR-TD20 owners know how I can playback the 3D m2ts files on a file share?

I have both a Sony and Samsung 3D TV. I've tried using the WD Live, and PS3 Media server with no success. The WD Live will stream the file, but in 2D. I've even tried putting the files on a external drive and plugging it directly into the TVs or into the WD Live. Still no dice.

Am I really going to have to use the camera to playback the videos in 3D on my 3D televsion?
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post #97 of 187 Old 12-23-2012, 05:16 AM
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There are some possibilities:

- use a 3D capable harddisc player, like the 3D-Prodigy or the iconbit. Here you can create a mvc based 3D-Blu ray ISO, and those player can playback the s3D files. The WD TV live is not able to deliver that.
- use a 3D Blu ray player for such an mvc based 3D-Blu ray
- use side-by-side half. Here you loose 50% of the resolution, but that can be played back by your WD TV live too.

For all this possiblities you will need a software to edit the footage - Sony Vegas Moviestudio HD platinum for example.

- you can also try to use the free pmb/pmh for an easy edit of the video, and transfer that back to the camera - and playback the footage from the camera.

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post #98 of 187 Old 12-27-2012, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

There are some possibilities:
- use a 3D capable harddisc player, like the 3D-Prodigy or the iconbit. Here you can create a mvc based 3D-Blu ray ISO, and those player can playback the s3D files. The WD TV live is not able to deliver that.
- use a 3D Blu ray player for such an mvc based 3D-Blu ray
- use side-by-side half. Here you loose 50% of the resolution, but that can be played back by your WD TV live too.
For all this possiblities you will need a software to edit the footage - Sony Vegas Moviestudio HD platinum for example.
- you can also try to use the free pmb/pmh for an easy edit of the video, and transfer that back to the camera - and playback the footage from the camera.

Thank you very much Wolfgang!

Do you know if I can make use of my PS3 as the 3D-Blu ray player in this case? Perhaps I can load the .m2ts files on an external drive and connect it to the PS3?
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post #99 of 187 Old 12-27-2012, 11:20 AM
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Sorry, I do not know that.

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post #100 of 187 Old 03-18-2013, 03:05 PM
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Need advice on the 3D Depth Adjustment settings during shooting. This has a range of -8 through 0 to +8. The Sony documentation says that this moves objects into and out of the "3D Comfortable Viewing Zone". Their picture in the manual shows objects at three distances from the camera, and an area that is this comfortable zone. It starts with two objects in the zone and a closer one outside the zone. The adjusted shot has all three objects in the zone. Of course, they don't say directly how they achieved this - by increasing or decreasing the value! The implication is that they increased it towards +8 thus moving objects into the background area. But it would be nice to know for sure which direction they used.

More explicitly, I'd like to try filming soccer action from a tripod while I play. That involves always deciding how much to show, how big the people will be onscreen, etc. Has anyone played with this scenario enough to know (1) how large the players must be onscreen before the video goes from 2D to 3D in practice due to distance from the camcorder and (2) what the interactions are between the distance from most of the field of view and the 17 steps of 3D adjustment during filming? With scenarios using stationary objects close up, I can just film at all 17 steps and then see what happens during playback. For soccer, I'd prefer to learn from other people's experiments.

Any advice on this parameter and its use would be appreciated. Advice relating to unattended filming of field sports from a tripod would be specific to one need.

Thanks / Tom Gull
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post #101 of 187 Old 03-18-2013, 03:31 PM
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Given the small IO of the TD20, you have to be aware that a significant roundness (the depth effect) will be achieved within a range of 10 to 15 meters only. If the nearpoint goes beyond that distance, the effect will become weaker and weaker even what means that the picture becomes more and more flat - until you end with pure 2D.

The second aspect is that the convergence adjustment is NOT able to change the depth bracket - what is the range where you will see such a depth effect. All what happens is that you shift the zero disparity point more to the front or more to the back. That is something that could be done also within an editing software, and will be one of the parameter that has an impact if the disparity become too large or not - and if you perceive the video in the front or behind the zero level.

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post #102 of 187 Old 03-19-2013, 06:50 AM
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Wolfgang- I think the manual specifies 10-15 feet, not meters for effective 3D range. The TD10 range was a little bit farther, more like 15-25 ft.
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post #103 of 187 Old 03-19-2013, 07:21 AM
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Even worser since 1m = 0.3 feet - my figurs were only a rough estimate from knowing the TD10. But true, the IO has become even smaller with the TD20.

In other words: forget that, take at least a TD10.

Kind regards,
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post #104 of 187 Old 03-28-2013, 10:37 AM
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Thanks to both for your input. I've had another week to play with the TD20 now and I'm getting a better feel for its limitations on the 3D side. I haven't tried the soccer shooting yet as I opted to record at 2D 60p first. I will experiment with it at some point but with a lot of zoom as I will be recording from tripod and I wouldn't expect to see any 3D depth zoomed out from 20-50 yards away. I don't want the cam to be real close to the field to avoid it getting hit accidentally.

I studied the sparse Sony discussion of the 3D depth adjustment and concluded that it was really best to leave that on auto for now for anything where objects are moving through the field of view. That seems to be working pretty well.

IO differences between the TD10 and TD20 should probably not be used as the sole criterion for selecting which to get (if both are even still available). As I understand it, the pixel count on the 20 is improved, and the smaller size of the TD20 is also a major factor for me given that both cams have a very limited 3D range. Of the people who compare these online, about half seem to prefer the 10 (mostly because of the increased IO) and about half seem to prefer the 20. I'm actually very happy with the 20 as it is a step up in 2D video and stills over my CX500V. The battery life is much improved, it has 60p, and the control dial is great to have. Since I bought it at half price from Best Buy (floor model with full warranty and I tested the functions first), it's proving to be a great value for me.
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post #105 of 187 Old 04-23-2014, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Wolfgang- I think the manual specifies 10-15 feet, not meters for effective 3D range. The TD10 range was a little bit farther, more like 15-25 ft.

Just opened my pdf with the instruction manual for the TD20 (I've got the instruction manual well before I have the camera) and it shows "good" 3D up to 18 meters, depending on zoom. In the mid zoom range the 3D stops at around 8 meters.

I've downloaded the European instruction manual to see what it says on 3D distances, could not find a similar picture as I found in both the instruction manual as in the "online" instructions (showing scales with colours indicating 3D zone in relation to zoom). Given the fact the lenses are 50% further apart, I'd assume the 3D range of the TD10 would be roughly 50% more, so up to 27 meters in the full zoom range. But . . . today I learned from Tanya Alsip from Cyclopital, they are definitly NOT going to release a SBE for the TD20. For $550,- one can extend the SBE for a TD10 to 140 mm.

So now I'm having a headache here... Yesterday I had to choose between a second hand TD10 and second hand TD20. Reading through the discussion in this thread I found Don Landis arguing the reduced spacing between lenses is compensated by the smaller size of the TD20. Wolfgang wouldn't want to have the lenses closer together and advised everyone to go out and grab the last available TD10 camcorders. Unfortunately, unlike I had expected to see in this thread, nobody seems to have had the opportunity to directly compare these two camcorders. My headache increased even further when I realised I got go as far as bying the second hand TD10 as well and do the comparison my self. The wife almost exploded when I did this suggestion. Her reasoning: after hours and hours research on the internet, I decided to go for the TD20. Technical specs and compatibility as key elements of the decision (since the wife and I frequently do trips on our BMW motorcycles). On those trips taking a SBE with me is unrealistic. And those few millimeters width, heigth and depth might be valuable extra space when packing our BMW bags.

On the other hand, despite all these hours of research, untill now I never had the chance to do some "hands on" with either camera. About just as many people that took the trouble of reviewing these camcorders (customers, not magazines) found the TD10 too large as too small... My hands aren't particularly small sized, the previous cam (HDR-XR155E) was a wee bit too small for me. But it seems the TD20 might be just that bit bigger to lay comfartable in my hand..

So it will boil,down to this: as soon as the camera has arrived I will go out and shoot several shots at different distances. Next I will try to boost up the 3D effect in Pinnacle Studio 16 on the "long" shots to see if I can get a satisfactory result. If yes: problem solved. If not: see if the TD10 is still available on eBay, use my best friend as a weapon in the struggle with my wife (he has this ultimate diplomatic talent), go out and do the same shooting with both TD20 and TD10. In an ideal world I would get permission to fit the TD10 with a SBE, leave that on and carry 2 camera's on our trip to the USA. TD20 for the regular shooting, TD10SBE for the long shots. Once at home edit both streams, compare and decide which one goes, put that on the Dutch eBay.

Any comments or suggestions?

By the way, Tanya Alsip suggested I would look in to the Sony DEV-3 recording binoculars. But those lenses seem to be put rather close together...
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post #106 of 187 Old 04-23-2014, 06:39 AM
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Well, things develop rapidly. Before most of you have gotten out of bed (given the difference in Time Zone), the diplomat turned out to be my son. My wife and I agreed to the following compromise: contact the seller of the TD10, let him know that, should he not succesfully have sold his camcorder by the time the auction closes, I'm happy to buy it for €375 /$ 500,-
That way I can get it fitted with a SBE and use that combination in our USA vacation of next month. On my side I had to promise the wife not to turn the vacation in to a Photographic Expedition (as Don Landis has put so well a view lines ago). Like Don I would then have the best of both worlds, readily available (even combined, the TD10SBE will fit in my motorcycle rucksack that I will bring along).

So, I'm keeping my fingers crossed here: A. No one buys that TD10, B. Seller is willing to settle for $500,- (which is, given the age of the gear, a fair price in my humble opinion). They guy aks $583.

Keep you all posted, meanwhile still very curious about your thoughts,

Jeroen
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post #107 of 187 Old 04-23-2014, 12:28 PM
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Please understand that my desire for smaller has to do with lugging the system around for a day walking in crowds of tourists. The bigger the kit, the more tired I get and when really tired, the shooting quality goes to hell. If I were in your position today, I would not be buying the TD10 but rather the TD20. Size matters and the smaller the easier it is to carry around. The 3D and overall image quality are very close so that issue to me is not critical.

About the SBE- Joe may disagree here but the SBE for the TD10 really makes it a beast to lug around. I've been to Disney with the TD 10 and a twin rig to shoot the fireworks only, so the twin rig is locked up in the storage lockers for the day until the fireworks. The times when my shooting demands a wide IA is not at all common. These are special locations and special conditions. The bulk of my shooting is typical 50 ft maximum depth and mostly 20 ft so the under 65mm IA is acceptable and will capture comfortable quality. The wide stereo base is tricky and many shots will just not look good so you have to take time and shoot it several times to compare in post what works with your project.

One more personal opinion about SBE- these will fix your shooting range as well because the IA is not variable. When I find a scene that yells out wide IA, I begin to shoot ranges to objects with a laser range finder scope. I enter the numbers and get a good IA, like 16" for this scene. Then I go down the road and set up another shot. Now the ranges dictate 12". go to another location and the scene dictates 22" Consequently, the places where large stage and wide IA are indicated, you will find the optimum IA varies considerably. Therefore the SBE may not be a good idea as it will restrict your scene for use since it is just one IA.

I know Joe's work has him shooting in the range where the SBE really enhanced the 3D. But he has not gone to Monument Valley, Bryce Canyon or the Grand Canyon. His needs I believe were to extend the small JVC and Z10k IA to an optimum just beyond the range of its lens design, therefore the SBE was a perfect extension for his projects.

Last year I was in Death Valley and that trip had me flying out west so I didn't bring my 1 meter bench as it would not fit in the case. I had a 20: bench and that IA did not give me good 3D beyond 1000 ft. with an 18mm lens. I really needed a 1.5meter bench.

You might look at it this way. If you put on a SBE to a TD10, it is like adding a 2X extender to your Zoom. Maybe the shot requires a telephoto lens that is 6 times your zoom range. But, right now you are a victim of just opinions from some of us with different experiences. Soon you will have your own kit and you can compare yourself. Just know this- if it does your job, then you can be happy. If you need more, then you know what direction to make changes. That's were all the fun is.
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post #108 of 187 Old 04-23-2014, 01:54 PM
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Hi Don,

 

Thanks once more for your comprehensive contribution to this discussion, much appreciated!.

 

It crossed my mind, the 2x extender you mentioned  (and I actually once used on one of my first digital still camera's, the Olympus C-2020 Z, it extended my 3x optical to 6x optical zoom, digital zoom was a definitive no-no at 2.1 megapixels). What got me convinced it would potentially be a great asset to be able to shoot with 2 camera’s was a YouTube video showing the difference in 3D effect using and not using the SBE. The scenes were shot at Edinburgh with the Edinburgh castle in the background. That was at quite a distance (I was there last fall with the misses, doing a very nice tour on our bikes), yet with the SBE the 3D effect almost reached that castle. Without it turned flat well in front of that scene. Another shot they took was of a building with trees on the right rear side with a couple of benches in front of them. The shot without the SBE did show some 3D effect there, but with the SBE the effect was far more pronounced (higher "Wow" effect). Even though that same footage indeed addressed the fixed range issue that you mentioned. But I reasoned that range is something I can learn to work with by practicing. I guess I will have a range to max 30 ft using the TD20 and a range of minimum 50 ft (or perhaps even 100 ft) using the TD10+SBE. Leaving a gap of 20 or so feet.... that I can bridge by walking the distance and shoot with the TD20. The idea is no longer to choose between the two camcorders, it is now more to get the TD10 with SBE as an extra. An extra I can let go off should results be disappointing.

 

A similar range issue is something I have with my Sony Alpha 100 DSLR (also known as “Digital Rebel”), I was an early adapter and still have the camera of which only the automatic white balance disappoints me, but hey, something that can be worked around). One lens goes from 18 to 70 mm, the other from 80 mm to 200 mm. Damn inconvenient if my tiger target has put herself in the 75 mm sweet spot range… Because you’ll never know what she does when you walk a little toward her ;-)  

 

Portability is indeed an issue, and yes, with that SBE hood on, the assembled unit is quit bulky. Nonetheless, likely to fit in my rucksack.

 

Your preference for the TD20, after having participated in this discussion ever since the release of the TD10 and having heaps and heaps of 3D experience at a level I am not very likely to ever reach (few of us will I think) to me is a comforting thought though! Should the TD10 be snatched away from me, I will not weep because I will have, most likely, THE best portable consumer level 3D camcorder at present available.

 

On the side, down here rumour has it the TD30 is discontinued. Could not find any news on the internet about a possible successor of that camcorder…. Is Sony abandoning the consumer 3D market?? Do you guys in the States know more?

Like I mentioned: should I get the opportunity to purchase that TD10 for $ 500,- , I will have it at relatively very little costs. Should the experiments with the SBE turn out to be disappointing, I put the TD10 on the Dutch eBay version, together with the Cyclopital SBE as a package deal for $ 800,-. In that scenario I would have lost $ 200,- and have learned a lot for that money :-)

However, coming to think of shots I’d like to take nearby (I live in a forrest), I also think it could be likely I will stick to the TD10 unit as being complementary to my “main” camcorder TD20, for the “longer-but-not-very-long” shots. As for the Grand Canyon, I reasoned that an IA of 140 mm would increase the effectiveness of a possible stereoscopic post production effect in a sense it would extend the range over which I can realise a 3D effect. Perhaps all the way across the Canyon. Worth trying I reckoned… Sort of a digital zoom, to stay in your comparison with the zoom-add on. Putting a 2x zoom extender on a 10x zoom increases the range considerably more than putting the same thing on a 2x zoom…. A difference of 16 times! Hence, I reckoned, putting a stereoscopic post edit effect on footage shat at an IA of 14 mm will very likely do more than that same effect on footage shot with an IA of 20 mm. Just my penny worth….

But, first things first, I don’t have either camera yet (comforting thought: I have the “track-n-trace” number of the TD20! It’s on it’s way over!

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post #109 of 187 Old 04-24-2014, 04:14 AM
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I think you'll love the TD20! Hope your edit PC can handle the files properly. Post some of your results and let us all see ;0)
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post #110 of 187 Old 04-24-2014, 09:12 PM
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I also think the right choice is the TD 20 for starting out. The SBE is a specialty piece of equipment for special shots. For now concentrate on establishing your basic 3D tools. Something also to consider and how I would be doing it in your situation- When you begin to consider hyper stereo base, after having learned about the relationship of IA and how it affects the Z depth of your image. You may decide to go the twin camera and bench route. So, instead of buying a second TD10 with SBE, maybe a second TD20 and a bench would be more versatile because you now can shoot any range of scenery. In addition you can shoot in 1080 24P or even 1080 60p with that setup. As I said earlier, the SBE is great for a small range of scenery that extends your basic camera a little further. A twin rig while more complicated, is more capable and flexible. I love the twin camera system so much I have two of them. The twin TD10 rig is when I want to use zoom in a shot since that system is electronically synced and zooming one control will work both cameras. The twin NEX5n rig is for No zooming but rather extreme wide angle since I have a set of fixed lenses I can select for the wide angle I need.

Note all my twin camera shooting is for outdoor scenery. Wolfgang, went a different route with his 3D kit and added a Roberts rig so he can shoot a range of IA from near zero to about 250mm as I recall. It puts one camera overhead and uses a mirror in the process. This is how most Hollywood movies are done so they can optimize the twin camera for every scene. Unfortunately this is even more complicated to control.
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post #111 of 187 Old 04-25-2014, 07:31 AM
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Hi Don,

 

Thanks for your advice. The reasons I came to think of the SBE are fourfold:

 

1.     Convincing demo video shot by Joseph Clark (he was so kind as to make a Full HD copy available for me, highly appreciated!). Though at these shots the effect of the SBE was that it created a “larger than life itself”  3D effect on the range he had used it (which was in his early SBE shooting days), it did demonstrate the potential for enhancing the 3D at larger range for me.

2.     Getting just 1 HDR-TD20VE down here was not easy to start with, let alone getting a second one... that might be something that just can't be done on short notice..

3.     Using a SBE on a TD10 would mean I will have to experiment and see at what ranges it works and what ranges it doesn’t. Learn to live with its particularities and, more importantly, its limitations. But despite that, it seems to me working with a SBE does not require other special skills besides learning the correct shooting distances (other skills like building a device that can hold two TD20 cams to do parallel shooting, setting up the two cams on the bench at a correct distance, shooting with two cams simultaneously while both set at the exact same settings, synchronising those two tracks in post production, editing these tracks simultaneously, etc, etc)

4.     Time is a factor. Departure toward the USA is 22nd of May (well, actually, it is a departure toward Vancouver, Canada first, then USA...). Before that time I can prepare myself on shooting descent 3D material that does not cause a headache when watched at. I can achieve this by, indeed primarily, experimenting with the TD20. I will have a few full days to do just that. I’ll keep the editing at a minimum, perhaps even none, and will watch that footage directly from the cam on the big screen. Learning on how to edit can be done after the vacation. Acquiring the TD10 and a fitting SBE seems a doable mission before leaving to the States. Learning how to shoot with a bench AND getting a second TD20 before that time seems almost a “Mission Impossible”.

 

And at the same time it is very very likely that all 3D equipment that will be available for me during our upcoming USA vacation is “just” the 1 TD20. Believe me, one thing you guys convinced me of is that I could easily have opted for a worse alternative for shooting 3D video. Despite its small lens distance and limited manual control features, I see that it is a great piece of very compact machinery!

 

Since there seem to be arguments (pointed out by you and by Guitarman) against using a SBE, I’m only willing to learn that fact by myself “the hard way” at a maximum cost. My stubbornness has a maximum allowable price tag. It could be that that maximum price tag does not fit the minimum amount the German eBay seller will settle for selling his TD10 for. In that scenario, I must accept the fact I won’t be able to do medium and long shots in 3D during our upcoming vacation and will have to concentrate on creating that 3D effect on those shots by making good use of objects in the mid range and perhaps even foreground.

 

One thing I am doing to prepare myself (whilst waiting for the TD20 to arrive) is reading through this topic. A massive amount of information, so far I am only at page 24 so I have got plenty of reading to do!

 

I will not put your advice aside though Don and will actively search for a second TD20. Hints on how to get a fitting bench that can handle two TD20s are highly appreciated! (Should you recall that these hints are not mentioned in between page 24 and page 53 of this topic, otherwise, I will stumble on those hints pretty soon I guess).

 

Greetz,

 

Jeroen.

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post #112 of 187 Old 04-25-2014, 02:36 PM
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Since there seem to be arguments (pointed out by you and by Guitarman) against using a SBE, I’m only willing to learn that fact by myself “the hard way” at a maximum cost. My stubbornness has a maximum allowable price tag. It could be that that maximum price tag does not fit the minimum amount the German eBay seller will settle for selling his TD10 for. In that scenario, I must accept the fact I won’t be able to do medium and long shots in 3D during our upcoming vacation and will have to concentrate on creating that 3D effect on those shots by making good use of objects in the mid range and perhaps even foreground.

First let me say that I forgot your 3D incentive is presently driven primarily by a "vacation deadline" With that in mind, I'm certain you selected the best choice in a small compact TD20 for travel. Put some money into a few batteries and a second charger too. Also, the TD20 can off load it's internal storage to an external USB HDD. I carry a 2TB Western Digital Passport drive on my trips and my month long recent travel just used up 800 GB of of it. I wanted to pre screen my dailies in the hotel room each night so I used a Surface Pro loaded with Vegas Pro to meet that need. But, that is not necessary since the TD20 has all you need to offload the files to the drive as long as you get the little adapter cable that sold with the camcorder. Both the TD10 and the TD20 require this adapter which has internal wiring to trigger the program in the camcorder for file transfer.

If you don't get the SBE and TD10, I would not fret over it because, IMO, repeating, the device is really good for special range and I'm afraid will not be wide enough IA for Grand Canyon. But if you work in a range as Joe did in his garden video it can really give the scenes that extra wow factor. Just remember, Joe is a very skilled cameraman and did not set those shots up run and gun as most of the shooting I do and likely you will do too.

My comment on getting a second TD20 for a twin setup was based on you having lots of time to practice with it. I spent almost a year experimenting with wide IA before attempting to use it on a project.

Here's another thread you may want to read through. Also, keep in mind, we were all experimenting and learning in the early days so don't take what we might have suggested as the final process back then. Read the whole discussion before understanding what we were doing.

Traveling with a TD10:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1344587/traveling-with-the-td10-tips-assessments-videos


When small interaxials don't cut it!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1339841/when-small-interaxials-just-dont-cut-it


Hopefully you will pick up some tips and tricks that will help you in traveling and later to understand the hyper interaxial science.
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post #113 of 187 Old 04-26-2014, 11:47 AM
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Hi Don,

Thanks for your posting. I started to read the topic that adresses the IA. Read up to page 10 so far and mostly concerned on how to synch two TD20's, hopefully I will find more about that in the further discussion beyond page 10.

I've ordered the book and video from Mr. Bernard "3D Movie Making".

A second NP-FV70 battery will be delivered next week.

After having read through the first 10 pages I became more and more convinced that a rig with dual camera is the thing to go for when it boils down to shooting scene's like the Grand Canyon. So, I need a second TD20. Some are available at eBay's, mostly from Japan but also one in the USA. If I buy that one and have it sent to my uncle's place in Winfield BC, I would have it on the 22nd of May. The down side of it is that time available for me to learn the trick is limited. But, nothing beats the fun like working with a real challenge (and succeed...). The fastest way of getting a rig is most likely constructing something myself. Is it correct to say I'd need a sturdy tripod, three quick release units, two to fit on the camera and a tube and one in the middle of the tube that connects to the sturdy tripod?

Anyways, I'm back to reading through the "to small to cut" stuff.

Cheers!

Jeroen

Edit: found a splendid picture of your rig on page 13! Hopefully I learn soon how you keep things synchronised (other than using the clapboard)

Edit 2: and your later setup Suppose I would be able to get my hands on a TD10 and shot with that in 1080 50p, as well as with the TD20 set up at that rig.... Would these two cams synchronise? Or should I not go on that path and stick to two identical cams? Reason behind it is I can get that TD10 cheap and fast...

Edit 3: From what Wolfgang went through I learned it might even be a problem using two identical camera's. .. Can't order Igus slider directly but did an enquiry. Spotted a brand new (heck, how is that possible?) HDR-TD20 for $899,- incliding shipping. And a tripod TPPRE27. Is not as proffesional as your Manfrotta's but does have two bubbles and can hold 4 kg (8.5 lbs) which ought to do the trick with two TD20s
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post #114 of 187 Old 04-26-2014, 08:43 PM
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The image on page 13 was my first prototype to play around to see if wide IA was right for my future projects. It never made it out of the back yeard and one video I did downtown across the river. The one using the igus slider is my final design.

Buy 2 of these and and three Manfrotto quick releases. I would size the bar for the maximum length you can fit in your largest suitcase for travel. That is what I did. Making a 26" long rail.

http://www.amazon.com/DryLin-W1040-A-Linear-Camera-Slider/dp/B0044DUCVG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398564003&sr=8-1&keywords=igus+camera+slider




If you want to sync the two TD10 camcorders, use a specially designed sync device: like this one from Digidat. The unit I have is difficult to find and probably no longer made. I bought mine from another AVS member who had two.

http://www.digi-dat.de/produkte/index_eng.html#stefraLANC Wolfgang uses one of these and as I recall did well with it. The TD20 uses the same AVR connection as the TD10 according to the manual. You can do 3D with twin cameras without a sync device but you will not be able to use zoom in sync. In all cases you will want to record sound on both camcorders and put a clapboard marker at the beginning of your clip and at the end. I always slate my shots as it makes lining up the two files for pairing faster and more precise by lining up the audio waveforms and then playing back the sound to sync to no echo.

In ALL cases your left and right cameras MUST be identical. If the cameras are different, you will never be able to line the image up to eliminate ghosts and doubles. Don't even think you can line up a TD20 with a TD10.

I once tried to line up a NEX5 with an NEX5n and it didn't work. Two NEX5n's or two NEX5's work perfectly.

There are some who insist you can't sync two cameras without an electronic sync device but as long as you are not trying to shoot high speed motion and stick to scenery it will be good enough using audio waveforms. If you have a bird or other animal in the shot, or a water fall the 3D may go a bit soft but for overall look, it should be OK. It all depends on how fussy you are for everything being perfect. Those who are perfectionists, won't settle for LANC sync and MUST use genlocked professional cameras to be happy.

When you get ready for a twin rig, I hope this post is of some help to see what can be done on a low budget.
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post #115 of 187 Old 04-30-2014, 05:19 AM
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Well, I’m no longer a 3D Virgin. My pre owned TD20 arrived yesterday from Germany in a good shape. The only comm
ents on that delivery: it came with a Russian Battery (which held last night but I fear I will not be able to squeeze extensive usage out of this one), no USB extension cable and no HDMI cable that were included in the original package (as mentioned in the included instruction manual that even has a Dutch section). On the other hand, it did come with a perfect fit original Sony bag.

First impressions: size indeed pretty much optimal. My big hands don’t experience the cam as being too small nor too big. Quite curious about the feel of the TD10 due to arrive next week (hopefully that one comes with a HDMI cable..). Automatic white balance of the TD20 was warmer than I thought it would be given the comments on the TD10. I shot at the end of the daylight period, light was getting low. It did seem clearer on the screen than in real life, a similar phenomenon I had with my previous XR155E. Apparently the CMOS can deal with less light than my own eyes.

I expected to have 3D range to a maximum of 24 meters, based on comments on this forum. On the tiny 3.5 inch screen I thought I could see 3D to approximately 30, 35 meters. Tonight I will receive my 23” 3D computer monitor and I’m very curious as to what it will look like on that size of a screen. The mission tomorrow will be editing using Vegas Pro 11 and Pinnacle Ultimate Studio 16  (I know there is already a Vegas Pro 13 version out there, let’s just say I have never used Vegas before and I could get my hands on this version comfortably, I’ll give it a go and if I like it more than I do Pinnacle Studio 16, of which version 17 is the latest, I’ll buy myself a most recent Vegas Pro bundle). The things that intrigue me most in this experiment: how fast is the rendering of these programs and what does the result look like on big screen. I know I had some hassle with the 1080 50i footage of the XR155E when it came down to movement, I think it must have something to do with which frame is rendered first and I believe this could be fine-tuned. I will try to set up Studio 16 to do a rendering to the exact same format as the original footage since for now I don’t have a need to put things on BD (Iconbit eats just about anything). Once edited I can have a look using my Optoma HD300 3D beamer on a 110" screen.

I’m sincerely hoping to find a 3D tweaking tool in either or perhaps even both 3D video editing software bundles. Shooting in zoom at flowers (no, I was not really close to those flowers) it appeared on my screen there was some trouble in fixing the correct Z-distance. On this I appreciated the presence of my little manual dial that is not fitted on the TD30 (a great minor for that model in my humble opinion, this model had better been baptised “TD15” instead of TD30, or perhaps even TD10a, reasoning the higher resolution and the smaller size could be seen as an upgrade from the TD10, but the lack of internal memory and missing the manual knob as a downgrade, perhaps levelling the upgrade.. I can’t figure out what the upgrade compared to the TD20 would be…. only downgrades as far is I can tell, but that includes the price of the thing).
Should the footage work out, I’ll post some shots of termite-like ants at work (can’t be real termites and the American audience will probably judge them as being regular ants, but compared to the regular species I have around the house, the puppies I shot yesterday were about 10 times their size..). I’ll be doing that using DropBox.

After only a few hours of playing with my new toy, I must agree with GuitarMan who commented the TD20 is a great camcorder. I don’t know how Mr. Sony does it, but despite the IA of just 20mm the cam manages to produce an impressive 3D image, at least as seen on the amazing crisp and sharp 3.5" LCD screen of the cam. Don Landis was also very helpful in assisting me making my decision and made a point of the size of the TD20 compared to the size of the TD10 and argued the lesser IA of 20mm of the TD20 is very well compensated by the fact you can tug the camera in your jacket pouch. Thinking of what I’m planning to do next holiday in relation to the skills I still need to acquire, I think the set-up for my holiday (TD10 with SBE and TD20 without) is the perfect match. I can go fairly close with a TD20 (that could be even a plus for the IA of 20 mm), have a comfortable working range for 85% of the time.

The other 15% has cost me the most, as well as in time searching for it as financially, a refurbished TD10 AND a Cyclopital SBE. Should the 3D performance of the TD10 be just as impressive as is the case with the TD20, and I can’t think of a reason why it should not, the IA increase to 140mm seems very very promising. It will be interesting to see if the increased size of the TD10 with the SBE on it still enables me to do "out of the hand" shooting. A light weight tripod will be with my gear, but I sincerely hope I can do descent shooting without using it. The good thing is I get to test it  all extensively in 3 weeks! I’ll unpack the SBE at my uncles place. He lives up a hill along Lake Okanagan (British Colombia, Canada). From his patio you have a splendid view on that lake with some cherry orchards in front. The ideal setting to see the 3 different 3D effects (TD10, TD20, TD10SBE). I’ll start off with a “naked” comparison between the TD10 and TD20 using a wee bit of zoom since that needs to be used with the SBE on. Then a will screw the SBE on. Perhaps I might find enough broadband internet available somewhere on my trip later to post that comparison on DropBox.

For now the lawn down here desperately needs cutting…

One very happy camper signing off for now. But the story will be continued!
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post #116 of 187 Old 04-30-2014, 03:44 PM
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I think you will need to take a pre-vacation to study up and practice with all your new gear. smile.gif Have fun!
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post #117 of 187 Old 04-30-2014, 05:51 PM
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I got myself one of these -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Free-Camcorder-Video-DV-DSLR-SLR-Camera-Shoulder-Mount-Support-Pad-UK-Local-/281077748222
I found it invaluable for a Wedding I shot a few months ago. It will be going with me on my cruise on the Allure of the seas trip to the western Caribbean in September. I watched Don's videos on the ship and wished he'd done more in 3d ;0)
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post #118 of 187 Old 05-01-2014, 12:55 AM
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Guitarman512--


Are you kidding me? I just signed up for the Sep 7 Allure of the Seas last evening. Must be Karma! smile.gif Which week did you select? 7th or 21st? We were on the Home Theater Cruise on our last Allure of the Seas.
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post #119 of 187 Old 05-01-2014, 04:45 AM
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Hiya Don, my trip is on the 21st pity it would have been great to have met up and shared the cruise. Imagine two 3d nuts running around the ship lol ;0)
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post #120 of 187 Old 05-01-2014, 10:30 AM
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OK, I'm once more in need for help. Good news first: set-up with two screens worked out. I got Pinnacle Studio 16 up and running with a 3D screen on the side. Did the rendering to a .MTS file. The result is 3D, but has occasional "hick-ups".

Something went wrong in the purchasing process: the advertisement of the German TD20 indicated it was a NTSC version. So when the Japanese guy asked me which camera system I needed, I replied "NTSC". Received no answer, unfortunately. When I unlacked the TD20, it turned out to be a PAL version after all. I immediately sent the guy in Japan I'd like to have the PAL version after all. No reply untill just now (almost 48 hours later), NTSC is already on its way. I have an akward feeling about this since the confirmation mail from Amazon that something is on it's way over was in my Inbox after the reply of the Japanese seller. What happened in those 48 hours?

Anyways, looks like I'm stuck with footage NTSC and PAL based. Which I would like to use in one project. Anybody with dome bright idea's? Or will I end up with two home video's of each vacation: the short and the long shot versions?

Hoping for the best but fearing the worst...

Kind regards, Jeroen

P.S. The result of my first project will be available shortly.
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