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post #1 of 19 Old 02-20-2012, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been looking for a new 3D camera to replace my JVC MHZ1U, but I didn't see anything from CES other than an upgrade to the Sony TD20(?). Did I miss any cameras or did the flaming rush to crank these things out slow down all of a sudden?
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post #2 of 19 Old 02-21-2012, 06:51 AM
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The new kids on the block for 2012 are the Panasonic Z10000, a medium size prosumer camcorder for 3D. Sony with their TD20 which is the smallest, highest quality, 3D camcorder but I believe will not perform well at 3D distances greater than 25 ft. It is designed for superb portability.

As for your JVC clip, I see good color saturation but the detail resolving power is limited. Close examination on a pixel basis clearly shows the typical single chip camera and tiny lens limitations that limit these consumer type camcorders from performing like the big boys. The Panasonic Z10000 will get you into a 3 chip level but at the low end of the technology. Better will be 3 Chip cameras with much larger diameter and quality glass. These begin to price in the mid $30k's. But to really get tight pixel resolution detail at very low noise and grain, you will need to look into cameras like the F65 cine alta class. You can decide which is bigger, the price or the physical size of the rig.

Overall, for amateur and consumer level video the JVC is doing an adequate job for you. Use it, study your results and learn to maximize the performance within the weight class of what you have. Don't expect 3 chip performance from a single chip camcorder. Don't expect 85mm diameter lens clarity from a 12mm diameter lens.

Also, in the higher end professional and broadcast class, CES is not the show for this. NAB in April will be the show for the higher end class and quality. Here, price and size are tossed out the window in exchange for quality and features. Figure $3500 as the bottom of the heap for camcorders in this class.
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post #3 of 19 Old 02-21-2012, 10:56 PM
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I would try to get one of the older Sony TD10, as long as it is available. Reasons for that are the better IO. The TD20 offerns only one additional point - it is smaller compared to the TD10.

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post #4 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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We switched shooting with HDV/DV 3 years ago and started using DSLRs. I think I'm biased from using the huge chips. From the reviews of the Z10000, it isn't that great in low-light. One user said that his old Sony FX-1 was better in low-light. I know that this is a new technology and will be a few generations before all of the bugs are worked out. It also seems like the JVC is the only one that works well with Final Cut.
JVC contacted me yesterday about a clip. Hopefully the camera just has some issues and we can get it resolved.
The F65 is a bit out of my price range. I think I would do better with a pair of Scarlets

Thank for the input!

-Chad
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post #5 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 06:13 AM
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Chad- I was kind of kidding about those high end cameras. I saw your "wedding and event" resume. The FX-1 seemed to be a very popular camcorder with the wedding videographers. I sold my Z1U to a wedding videographer and he loves it. But, I agree life without tape is so nice. Heck, I can even escape TSA inspection at the airports because the camcorder doesn't use tape.

Anyway, had a question for you. Do you see much interest in 3D for weddings yet?

Also, I repeat, you may want to hold out for NAB announcements to see what will be offered by competitors to the Panasonic Z10000. If 3D is important, then I believe the Z10000 might be your best rig for weddings by today's standards. You should try to get a demo/loaner from a local dealer for a day to see for yourself if the camera can perform in low light. I have always had my doubts about these tests and claims from people on the internet. If you can't get a loaner, better to find a person here like Wolfgang who posts here all the time to run some tests for you. AVS members here are more like family and you'll get a more honest evaluation.
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post #6 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaddyle View Post

We switched shooting with HDV/DV 3 years ago and started using DSLRs. I think I'm biased from using the huge chips. From the reviews of the Z10000, it isn't that great in low-light. One user said that his old Sony FX-1 was better in low-light. I know that this is a new technology and will be a few generations before all of the bugs are worked out. It also seems like the JVC is the only one that works well with Final Cut.
JVC contacted me yesterday about a clip. Hopefully the camera just has some issues and we can get it resolved.
The F65 is a bit out of my price range. I think I would do better with a pair of Scarlets

Thank for the input!

-Chad


I still have my old FX1, and the FX1 was one of the best HDV camcordes in terms of low-light. However, I have not compared it with the Z10000 really in terms of lowlight. My impression from the Z10000 is that it is not weak in lowlight, but especially lowlight is such a point where we have to take care. The perception, what lowlight is, tends to be very very different. Noise behaviour is fine if the gain goes up to the maximum position (what was not true for the old FX1 with maximum gain really). But it is very clear that there are limitations in terms of lowlight. I had some situations where I would have liked it to be stronger.

For 3D one general issue is, that it needs 3 things: light, light and again light! That is also due to the presentation techniques of today. And the small chips of the Z10000 has the advantage that it has a good depth of focus what is important for 3D - but the lowlight behaviour is constained for that. To get a better lowlight behaviour larger chips would be necessary - either by combination of two Panasonic 160, or by taking other hardware with larger chips.

For the FCP and the Z10000 there is a conversion tool now - but I have not tested that since I do not use FCP:

http://brorsoft.com/how-to/convert-h...for-fcp-x.html

Beside that I do not know what the question is? (if there is one). I cannot say anything for the JVC TD1, since I do not have that camcorder.

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post #7 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 01:12 PM
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I've noticed that my CMOS camcorders' videos get really soft with low light. Not just wide aperture soft. The resolution really drops.

My CCD cameras like my FX1, on the other hand, just softens a little. I wonder if it is a CCD vs CMOS issue.

Before I got my FX1, I used Sony's TVR900. It's actually an F stop more sensitive than the FX1 for the same gain setting, but the FX1 had so little graininess, it performed in low light better than the '900.
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post #8 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote= Anyway, had a question for you. Do you see much interest in 3D for weddings yet?[/QUOTE]

Don,

So you think an F65 is to much for a wedding I guess any camera that requires a team of people to make it work would probably be considered intrusive during a ceremony.
We were quite happy with our last batch of HDV cameras. We were using Z7U's and FX-1000's, but then we were bitten by the DSLR bug and made the switch.
We have had two brides ask us about 3D. I told them that the technology wasn't there. The JVC was the only one that I was aware of that would allow you to edit/convert the MVC files and generally edited well. I have heard that Edius is looking pretty good, but I don't know many people that use it. I have also heard good things about Sony Vegas, but it seems like they might make it work with their cameras first and then branch out.
Back to the bride, one of them is getting married late next year and I told her that depending on what happens in the 3D world, it might be possible. We would probably just bring an extra shooter to float around with the camera gathering footage for a 3D only highlight reel. Whether or not people use it, I think 3D is here to stay. I'm sure in the next few years it will just be bundled into the TV's and people won't think about it anymore.
My JVC tech was able to look at one of my clips today and I'm waiting for a response. I don't plan on making another purchase until after NAB. I also have two small children with another on the way. I thought 3D footage of them would be fun to start collecting now. I'll keep everyone updated on what JVC says.

-Chad
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 05:11 PM
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Back in the 1970's, a friend's Mom showed me 3D photos of her wedding from the 1950's.
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post #10 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 08:31 PM
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Chad- Thanks for your report on the interest in 3D for weddings. I also get charged as a 3D enthusiast when I'm out shooting with my twin ultra stereo base rig and strangers come up to me and say- Hey, that's for shooting 3D isn't it? Then they offer, we just bought a 3D TV and are really impressed with the quality. It's fun! Then I usually swing the rig around and explain to them how they can shoot their own 3D with a single camcorder like this and show them the twin lenses. When I tell them what it costs they get really excited. Of course they want to know why I have two and I explain how shooting very large stages requires a wider separation but most people just want to shoot in a room close up so a single camera is quite adequate. I wonder how many of these people go out and try to find a 3D camcorder in the stores and discover they don't carry them. I did hear that the TD20 will be carried by Best Buy when released.

As for editing video, it seems that the JVC's best chance for a good professional editing package will be Edius when it comes out of beta. But today, you should check out Power Director Ultra PD10. As I understand, it can handle the JVC MVC format fine and Power Director Ultra v10 offers better selection of bluRay authoring thahn any other affordable software out there. It even has DTS 5.1 codec capability, 3D menus and a huge collection of canned plugins for event videographers like yourself. True that Sony does offer the best solution for 3D from camcorder to accessories to Sony Vegas Pro. But the Blu ray output is quite lacking now for 3D. So, I edit in Vegas and author for BluRay in Power Director.
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

Back in the 1970's, a friend's Mom showed me 3D photos of her wedding from the 1950's.

My grandparents had wedding photos in 3D using those old Holmes Stereoscopes. circa 1917. People who believe 3D stereography is a passing fad are just ignorant of history. The only thing that will pass is the current technology to shoot and display 3D when it is replaced by something better.
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post #12 of 19 Old 02-22-2012, 11:25 PM
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I offer the service to shoot 3D weddings here in Austria since end of last year, and up to now I see the situation that the demand for such service is low. But it would be unrealistic to expect more - that is an emerging technology, beside the fact that the wedding season will start in few month only.

However - I also believe that a 3D wedding can be shoot with camcorders like the Z10000 in a great way. I would tend to use two of such camcorders, even if I think in the beginning I will like to combine one Sony TD10 as secondary camcorder with my Z10000 to do so.

Editing questions are solved today - we have Vegas as a core NLE for the editing, we are able to deliver 3D BDs. Edius is able to edit the 3D footage, but up to now withour MVC-encoder and so without the capability to create 3D BDs - hopefully that will follow.

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post #13 of 19 Old 02-23-2012, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Don,

Can you send pics of the twin rig? I'd love to see what you have put together.

Thanks,

Chad Dyle
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post #14 of 19 Old 02-24-2012, 01:43 AM
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Sure- They have been posted before but may have scrolled off the first page-

I also have a third slide rail that is a compromise 24" length, primarily built to fit in my travel suitcase and store inside a Disney storage locker.
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post #15 of 19 Old 03-05-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

I would try to get one of the older Sony TD10, as long as it is available. Reasons for that are the better IO. The TD20 offerns only one additional point - it is smaller compared to the TD10.

Wolfgang, are you referring to the smaller size with lower interocular distance? For the first week or so I thought the older camera must have more convenient input/output options. I'm shopping for another 3D camcorder, and am considering both the TD10 & TD20. I'd like to learn more about your comparison of them.
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post #16 of 19 Old 03-05-2012, 02:30 PM
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Yes, I am referring to the decrease in IO. Even for the TD10, the IO was not huge really - in centimeter it was 3.1 cm. With the TD20 we go back to 2.1 cm (you can calculate that same in inch too, makes no difference).

The advantage from that is that the camcorder becomes smaller. The disadvantage from that is that the 3d effect has to become weaker.

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post #17 of 19 Old 03-05-2012, 10:42 PM
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Is that 3.1 cm from center to center of the lenses or distance between the inner edges? It seems short, as you say.
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post #18 of 19 Old 03-06-2012, 04:03 AM
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Is the closest 3D focus distance shorter with the TD20 vs. the TD10?
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post #19 of 19 Old 03-06-2012, 08:51 AM
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The distance is measured from center to center as an industry standard.

I would not describe the close IA as "weaker" 3D but rather a smaller IA is designed for smaller 3 dimensional stage. As the stage gets larger you need to expand the IA to permit a 3D stereoscopic illusion between objects on the stage.

The TD-20 is a much smaller physical sized camcorder than the TD10 and this obviously restricts the IA to a smaller distance. However the 3D effect can be quite adequate in the smaller stage that this camcorder is designed to shoot. Shooting 3D in your home and similar stage size will be quite adequate. However, shooting distances 25 to 50 ft away, even the TD10 would not be much improvement but the Z10000 would. In addition the zoom-in will also help in achieving some increase depth illusion. Here's the general rule of thumb for understanding the 3D effect you get:

As the stage gets larger, increase the IA. At any given IA zooming in on an object will pull that object from in back to forward in z space. If the IA is too small for 3D illusion, zooming in will improve it but will also create a flattening of the object, some claim is the cardboard cutout look. By contrast, if the stage gets smaller, decrease IA of your forward objects can lose convergence and appear as a double image in the popout.

There are actual complex equations to calculate all these dimensions, there are also calculators to compute the same. However, the over all effect of the different camcorders IA, lens focal length (zoom) and stage size is as described above.

Personally, I find that the TD10 and JVC TD1 for it's physical size offers the happiest compromise for most consumer shooting around the home and vacation shots. For sports, I would go with the Z10000 because most sports is done with a larger stage, basketball court, Football field etc.

If shooting large stage events, I prefer the twin camera system with large variable IA flexibility. Not something a casual shooter would want to carry along. I don't, but when I know there is an event that dictates a 20" IA, I can plan for it and set it up.

Unfortunately, unless you have the budget for a number of different camcorders with different IA, there is no easy one does all and does it with best results. It's almost a design impossibility. In other words, get me a 20" IA with a camcorder that is no bigger than 3" wide. LOL! Therefore you have to decide what is important and what you can compromise with.

Besides more compact size, the TD20 will also offer GPS features Sony is popularizing. This has little value for me. I actually like two aspects of the TD20. 1. It does focus closer than my TD10 and produce nicer "macro" 3D stereo of very small stages. 2. It is smaller and fits in my pocket even better than the TD10. I would probably carry it with me more often than the TD10.

Some things are fortunately identical from my brief experience shooting with the TD20-
The image quality is the same, the image stabilizer is the same, the LCD screen is the same high quality, audio is the same, and all TD10 accessories except lens attachments are the same. For me, a TD10 owner, these similarities are very important as my kit would be able to share accessories. I will probably buy the TD20 for the 2 reasons stated when the price rolls off a bit.
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