Sony 3D camcorder HDR-TD20V 3D playback from media player not possible? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I had replied to a year old thread with this, so re-posting as a new thread:

Yesterday I purchased the Sony HDR-TD20V 3D camcorder - I love the camera, but unfortunately I am ready to return it unless I can resolve the deficiency.

It records in the following file formats:

3D: MPEG-4 MVC/H.264 AVCHD format
Ver.2.0 compatible
2D: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 AVCHD format
Ver.2.0 compatible
STD: MPEG2-PS

Last week I purchased a Samsung 3D plasma TV (PN60E550) - perfectly displays 3D Side by Side (SBS) movies (not from the 3d camcorder) that I store on my Western Digital WDTV Live Hub media player connected via HDMI to the television.

I also download video files from my other Sony camcorder (2d not 3d) onto the media player and view them on my 3d TV (in 2d naturally)

I can download video files (.MTS files) from the new Sony HDR-TD20V to my media player, but it plays back on my Samsung 3d tv in 2d only not in 3d.

It is now my understanding that there are four ways to to play back HDR-TD20V files in 3d:

1. load archived 3d video files back on to the 3d camcorder then connect the camcorder via HDMI to the 3d TV (not acceptable solution)

2. store the 3d video files on the camcorder and view on 3d TV via HDMI cable (not acceptable solution)

3. burn the 3d files onto a 3d blu-ray disk (don't have Blu-ray burner, don't want one and not acceptable solution)

4. view the 3d files on the built-in LCD display on the camcorder (not acceptable solution)

In any case these options would be unacceptable, as all of my media is streamed from the media player via HDMI (including SBS 3D) to the Samsung 3D plasma TV.

Would anyone know if there is a way to store the HDR-TD20V 3d video files on a hard drive and then play them in 3d on my 3d TV without having to first copy them back onto the Sony 3d camcorder. Please note that all current 3d TVs typically have three 3d options:

1. convert from 2d to 3d (not what I want to do)
2. play 3d side by side (SBS) video file (not the file format the HDR-TD10V generates)
3. play 3d over and under video file (not the file format the HDR-TD20V

The sales person at Future Shop in Toronto (325 Yonge Street, Toronto) assured me that it would not be necessary to use the Sony 3d camera as a player to view the recordings in 3d. In fact it appears that it is necessary to use the camera as a playback device if I want to view the recordings in 3d (unless I want to burn to Blu-Ray 3d - don't have one of these burners, and don't want to accumulate disks)

I certainly don't want to have to use the camcorder as the playback device.

To quote Canar in a previous post:

"does Sony expect someone to keep all their videos on the camera forever? I have mine 3/4 full already. The HDR-TD10 takes amazing pictures.

There has to be a better way,

Think about it. Your friends come over and want to see the 3d video from the last child's birthday party they missed. You say "hold on a half hour or so while I copy it back to my camcorder so I can play it for you?""

and I have not found a way to have the Sony camcorder record in SBS format which works with my setup.

Thank you for your assistance
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post #2 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 06:33 AM
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There are some solutions:

- purchase a 3D-Blu-ray Player and use Vegas to generate 3D-BD-ISOs, that you burn do 3D-BD, or
- purchase a harddisc player like the Prodigy 3D or the iconbit - must be one that has the Realtec chip 1186. Players using that chip are able to playback 3D-Blu-ray ISOs, as generated with Vegas
- use Vegas to render the footage to side-by-side half - you loose 50% of the resolution, but will be able to playback your footage
- use the stereocopic player and a PC to playback the files. Could also be done with players like the PowerDVD

So there are solutions, but prepare yourself to substitut the player like the WDTV live. Old equipment will not be ready for 3D.

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post #3 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 09:10 AM
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dpaul-

I thought the HiMedia 3D Player ( with Realtec chip 1186) should be able to do it if you transferred the files from your TD20 to the Hard disk in the player but after testing I discovered I was mistaken.

I tried both the MTS raw clip and the m2TS PMB converted clip and neither play in 3D. I also tested the MTS files I had in archive made from the Panasonic Z10k camcorder and they would only play in 2D. The MTS files I have off my Panasonic 3D1 camcorder will play back in 3D but those are in SBS Half format, not MVC. The HiMedia HD900b I have plays 3D iso files just fine in 3D so in respect to these, what Wolfgang said will work but I understand that is not a satisfactory solution for your choice. I use the HiMedia here to play my Sony Vegas productions rendered to iso in 3D.

I think the most basic player that will work for you must be the TD20 itself. Then to be able to store all your older files that you will eventually want off the camcorder's internal storage, I suggest you do the following- Get a small USB drive to archive your clips from the TD20 when the camcorder gets full. Then to play back those older files, connect the TD20 to your TV via the HDMI and also connect the ext USB hard drive to the TD20 and select it in the TD20 menu as the source. Note- you have three choices for media source in the TD20- 1. the internal memory, 2. The SD card plugged into the slot, and 3. the external media hard drive connected to the USB cable. For your information, this is what I have for TD10 playback in my home theater. I have a 20 ft HDMI cable connected to the AVR's hdmi aux input and that way I can have my TD10 at my seat to control what I watch by selecting the clip on the camcorder's LCD. It works quite well except for one annoying problem. When you stop playing and the TD10 goes into rec mode the audio will generate feedback with your TV's sound system. It can get quite loud if not careful.

I know you said playing back from the camcorder is not acceptable but I'm afraid that is the only direct connect way to simply play the raw camcorder files for now in 3D that I know of.


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post #4 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 09:13 AM
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Wolfgang is telling it right. (Edit, except for the stuff Don corrected) The problem is with the player. Several PC software players will show 3D from the Sony camera just fine- Stereoscopic Player and PowerDvd for example. Just copy the files from the camera to the computer and double click on them. Or, you can edit the files, "burn" them to your hard disk as an iso file and play that with either Stereoscopic Player or PowerDvd. Some players cannot, and that's the fault of the player, not the camera.
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post #5 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 10:07 AM
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It can also be a large hard disc that is used to store the TD10/20 clips - and the camera can use that for playback. BUT the harddisc must be formated from the camera, before you transfer clips. If that is a solution - great.

Don, I have not seen any Realtec 1186 unit that has been able to playback nativ mvc files. Maybe that is a limitation of the chip, but I do not know that. That would be great since then we could render to a muxed MVC file and foreget the authoring step.

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post #6 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions - Let me give it some thought - it's just that I loathe the fact of having yet another device to manage in my home theater - I like having all of my media in the same place. You should see my collection of active remotes (yes, I have a Harmony universal remote but need to keep updating it all the time).

Great forum - thanks again.
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post #7 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 11:58 AM
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This is all Sony and its really dumb.

To quote wolfgang
Quote:
So there are solutions, but prepare yourself to substitut the player like the WDTV live. Old equipment will not be ready for 3D.

I cant disagree with this more. I have no problem playing 3D content to my TV from my Boxee Box. It gets streamed right from my network storage. I have been doing it for well over a year. This problem has nothing to do with old equipment.

The problem here is the codec Sony uses in the camera. There is just no easy way to convert it to something standard. It has been a while since I looked. maybe someone else has come up with a better solution by now. The people at Boxee Box even looked at what it would take to be able to play back the content in its native form. (very cool of them I might add) For the few people like us that are in this pickle its just not worth their effort.
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post #8 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 12:21 PM
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So Canar, you believe that the WD TV live will be able to learn to playback MVC-Files or even a 3D-BD-ISO based on profile 5 of the BD-standard? That is what we are talking here.

If somebody accepts to loose 50% of the resolution and takes sbs-half, fine. But more will not be possible.

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post #9 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 12:44 PM
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Pretty sure this is the question of the post. Same as mine from a year ago.
Quote:
Would anyone know if there is a way to store the HDR-TD20V 3d video files on a hard drive and then play them in 3d on my 3d TV without having to first copy them back onto the Sony 3d camcorder.

I would have been happy with half rez sbs. It would have been better than nothing. The camera should have come with a conversion utility to convert the files to a TV standard file. Its really that simple. Vegas costs money and is buggy as hell. The process is not simple either.
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post #10 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 01:03 PM
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Sorry but old player will not learn MVC or read 3D-BD-ISOs, since their chips are not able to decode that.

For sbs half see here - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421219/sony-3d-camcorder-hdr-td20v-3d-playback-from-media-player-not-possible#post_22238119

If you are upset against JVC, Panasonic and Sony (none of them deliver a conversion utility to a "TV standard file") feel free to contact and to convince them that you have a right to get that.

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post #11 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I would be happy with SBS as well - yes, better than nothing - SBS works fine from my media player - but after trying all kinds of conversion programs, no go.
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post #12 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 05:58 PM
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Cannot be. Try Vegas Pro 10/11, Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum 11, Edius 6.5, Cyberlink Powerdirector 10, Magix Pro X4.

All of that can convert MVC footage to sbs-half.

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post #13 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 06:23 PM
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Wolfgang is spot on correct. Creating a SBS Half in windows media 9 is pretty straight forward with Vegas. I made a custom template for wmv with DD5.1 audio. But here again it requires a process and rendering. My solution is quite simple and requires no computer but does require you connect the TD10/20 to the TV. You can have a large collection of USB drives that plug into the camcorder and work it with NO LOSS of quality from the camera originals. I do it all the time and even use the method in my hotel room when traveling. (2d only as I've never seen a 3D TV in a hotel room.)

So, there is a way to do the request but it appears the demand is unreasonable, in that it requires a way to play back the files in 3D on equipment not designed for 3D. rolleyes.gif Plus there is a refusal to use equipment already owned and designed to do the task.


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post #14 of 50 Old 07-21-2012, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so it appears there are some possibilities of which I was unaware. If I understand correctly, I should be able to do the following:

Move the 3d content files from the camcorder to a USB connected hard drive (under 2 terabytes)

With the TD 20 connected via HDMI to my 3d tv I can access and play 3d movie files that reside on the USB connected hard drive.

Therefore I don't need to copy archived 3d movie files onto the TD20.

Thank you all for the insight.
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post #15 of 50 Old 07-22-2012, 02:11 AM
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First you have to format the usb2-harddisc from the camcorder - then you can move files from the camcorder to the harddisc. And yes, you can playback the 1080 50i/60i footage with the hdmi using the TD10/20 and the harddisc connected with usb2 to the camera. The advantage - you are able to playback the footage in the original format 1080 50i/60i, what cannot be done with 3D-BD since here you are restricted to 720 50p, 60p and 1080 24p.

That can be enough for the very beginning - and will not cost anything if you have an old usb2 harddisc available.

The only drawback I see is that the footage has not been edited. Don uses that, I do not use that - since I tend to edit my footage with Vegas or Edius. But maybe a minimum editing like trimming clips can be done with the software that comes with the camea (PMB), or even within the camera (but be aware if you edit something in the camera, you will not be able to edit that anymore in Vegas since then you loose the 3D effect in Vegas). I am not sure about that, since I do not use the PMB.

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post #16 of 50 Old 07-22-2012, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Wolfgang, Don, and all who assisted. This would seem to be the most straightforward approach - using a camcorder formatted USB connected hard drive with the TD20 on HDMI to the 3D TV (actually a HDMI switch to 3d projector and 3d plasma). And I will lose no 3d resolution.

Would that imply that my Samsung 3d plasma and Epson 3d projector will auto detect the 3d stream and display accordingly? The only manual settings I have on the display devices are: convert 2d to 3d; side by side, and over and under.

Thank you
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post #17 of 50 Old 07-22-2012, 09:50 AM
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Would that imply that my Samsung 3d plasma and Epson 3d projector will auto detect the 3d stream and display accordingly?

It should but you'll need to make sure your TD20's hdmi output is set up properly. I use automatic and it works great.

Don't forget that other gremlin I mentioned earlier that when a file is done and the camcorder goes to record standby mode the feedback sound can surprise you.

Also, don't get overwhelmed with the setup to play files from the USB drive. It's not a simple assembly of devices and menu setups but once you get it down, you'll find it works pretty nice. I have a drive here with a load of clips from last year and if I'm looking for something I just connect it to my TD-10 and hook up the hdmi cable and set the menus for the USB drive and up pops all those clips in the LCD, for access as well as the big screen for viewing. What you see on the LCD TD20 screen will be displayed on the TV.

If you select the TD20 output on hdmi for SBS then you will have to manually select that in your TV. I just use auto and it sees the display in frame packed mode.


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post #18 of 50 Old 07-22-2012, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Don. That sounds great. I plan to set it up with a USB hard drive connected permanently (unless I am recording of course). Since the LCD display is mirrored on the TV/projector, I should be able to do everything using the TD20 remote, is that right?

The only glitch remaining for me at this time is the 5.1 audio. Since my AVR is not HDMI (older model), I have no way to connect sound from the TD20 to my home theater sound system (please no, not a receiver upgrade as well). My plasma TV has HDMI out, have to see if it has optical out otherwise no sound, unless I want to use analog audio out to the AVR.

Oh well - all very helpful - thanks to Don Landis, Wolfgang, and all AVS forum participants. Looks like I will be keeping the TD20 and work out the glitches as I go.
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post #19 of 50 Old 07-22-2012, 03:43 PM
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I've used the IR remote very little on the TD10 so I can't be of much help with that. Sorry. When I use this, I'm generally in a hurry to view some content on the bigger screen so I just use the touch screen to navigate. I've only connected my external USB media drive a couple times so I know that works. When I travel I carry the 120Gb Passport drive with me but it is rare that I shoot so much that I need to offload to that drive in the field. Lately I've been switching to 32 Gb SD cards when I need more storage.


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post #20 of 50 Old 07-23-2012, 12:00 AM
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Sure, the remote will work.

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post #21 of 50 Old 07-25-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canar View Post

Vegas costs money and is buggy as hell. The process is not simple either.

I'm quite surprised to hear anyone complain about Vegas as being "buggy" - it's quite simply the most capable and intuitive audio/video editing tool I've found. Sure it "costs" - but so does any quality software, and you get what you pay for.

I've been using Vegas since the early days before Sony even bought it, and I've never encountered anything buggy about it. I bought into the hype about Adobe Premier when it was introduced, and, talk about buggy software....Man! I went back to Vegas in a hurry and never looked back.
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post #22 of 50 Old 08-03-2012, 11:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racklefratz View Post

I'm quite surprised to hear anyone complain about Vegas as being "buggy" - it's quite simply the most capable and intuitive audio/video editing tool I've found. Sure it "costs" - but so does any quality software, and you get what you pay for.
I've been using Vegas since the early days before Sony even bought it, and I've never encountered anything buggy about it. I bought into the hype about Adobe Premier when it was introduced, and, talk about buggy software....Man! I went back to Vegas in a hurry and never looked back.

What a first append! How long have you been working for SonyCreative?

The latest version of Sony Vegas Pro (11) is the most buggy version of Vegas/Vegas Pro yet. If you leave GPU acceleration enabled, the odds are good you'll crash unless you have one particular family of video cards. Error messages?? It's Vegas Pro - you don't need no stinkin' error messages that say anything. Instead you'll find out that "Vegas Pro has stopped working" or "Vegas Pro has encoutered an unknown problem" as your only clue that Vegas Pro has a problem (again).

There are ways to make Vegas Pro work, but you'll have to check with the user community since SonyCreative "help" doesn't seem to know about these "fixes".

Vegas Pro is cheaper than many solutions but if anyone's life depended upon Vegas software quality, they would be dead. Luckily it is just a non-linear editor not human-rated software.

Of course, reading your append again, perhaps you were being sarcastic? In which case, I apologize. If not, I find it interesting that you made one append and then disappeared. Troll, anyone?
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post #23 of 50 Old 08-03-2012, 01:40 PM
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Or, this guy doesn't really tax the software capabilities, doesn't do 3D, doesn't pair 3D, never performs complex composite timeline builds with multiple file formats and parent/child structures or relies on 5.1 audio mix, velocity curves etc etc. Vegas has always been a product in the most capable category but it also has also had it's share of troubles. 3D just added a new set to deal with. I think version 3,0 and 6.0, or was it 5.0?, were the most bug free that I recall.

But having said that, I do admit that as of today, it's been well over a week since I recall crashing Vegas on this latest project.


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post #24 of 50 Old 08-06-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

How long have you been working for SonyCreative?

You always make sweeping assumptions, or is this the 1st time?
Quote:
The latest version of Sony Vegas Pro (11) is the most buggy version of Vegas/Vegas Pro yet. If you leave GPU acceleration enabled, the odds are good you'll crash unless you have one particular family of video cards

Whatever you say. GPU acc has always been enabled, and "crashes" are non-existent.
Quote:
Error messages?? It's Vegas Pro - you don't need no stinkin' error messages that say anything. Instead you'll find out that "Vegas Pro has stopped working" or "Vegas Pro has encoutered an unknown problem" as your only clue that Vegas Pro has a problem (again).

Again, whatever you say, chief, but it ain't happening for me.
Quote:
Of course, reading your append again, perhaps you were being sarcastic? In which case, I apologize. If not, I find it interesting that you made one append and then disappeared. Troll, anyone?

Feel free to draw any conclusion you want. Tossing out "troll" is a sleazy cop-out. Look, my system specs are capable of running Vegas without issue, and trying to spread the word that Vegas is crap is bogus. Readers deserve to have the other side of the story.
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What a first append!

If this is a typical reception here, it might well be the last.
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post #25 of 50 Old 08-12-2012, 05:08 AM
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I have been battling this same problem for months now. I don't have a TD10 but I have files from one via a brother in the UK. I have tried everything mentioned here and already have a HiMedia 900B. I have ISO and BDMV copies of discs and all play back perfectly with the HiMedia unit. but an ISO of the TD10 files won't, nor will any copies to a blank BD disc made with either Sony's PMB or PMH software, even though the files burned are all marked "HD3D" on the jpgs generated during the burning process.
However, I have discovered one glimmer of hope here. If I put the raw MTS files onto an external hard drive or a small thumb drive and connect it directly to my Samsung ES7500 via USB, the files appear on the screen in full HD 3D and the TV tells me that it has detected 3D content. The very first time that I tried this it played the first two files and then locked up. I have not been able to get a continuous play of any of the files since, but If I play around with the remote's "pause, forward and step" buttons, I get some movement. I should add that I know the difference between full 3D and 2D to 3D simulation in case anybody suggests that I am seeing this. I hope that the screenshot attached will prove this. Another strange thing is that although the video freezes, the full sound continues to the end of the clip, when the next clip starts. Each time the screen goes black and the next file shows the first frame or two and I get the popup advice from Samsung that says " Showing in 3D. Press the 3D button to switch back to 2D." I have tried to attach a screenshot of this.
I'm just a bloke who doesn't give up and don't have any technical knowledge and came across this thread via Google. looking for advice. I hope that this may give the more technical contributors on this site another way of looking at this problem.
Thank you.
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post #26 of 50 Old 08-12-2012, 05:20 AM
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I should have added that as each new clip appears, my 3D glasses respond and darken automatically. I have 73 of these clips which were all taken at Brooklands UK Mercedes complex and unfortunately most of them are only about ten seconds in length. They were sent to me at my request from a brother who normally sends me DVD AVCHD videos and wanted to know how he could send me 3D videos as he had been unable to do it. Unfortunately, I said "no problem; send me some raw files and I'll show you how I do it !" Months later, I'm still trying.
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post #27 of 50 Old 08-12-2012, 06:49 AM
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I attach four more screenshots, one in 3D, one of the same wheel in 2D. Note the wide separation of the wheel "spokes" effect. These same files play back perfectly via the HiMedia 900B, but in 2D with the only option as simulated 3D The other two screenshots show the same wheel in 2D and in 2D to 3D as played in the HiMedia. There is no doubt that I am seeing full HD 3D of these Sony TD10/20 files via the USB input of the ES7500. As I said, I am getting the full length background audio playing, but the video doesn't move more than a couple of frames but it is trying to play. Full 3D.jpg 216k .jpg file 3D switched off.jpg 235k .jpg file 2D to 3D advisor.jpg 127k .jpg file 2D to 3d effects.jpg 214k .jpg file
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File Type: jpg 3D switched off.jpg (234.8 KB, 18 views)
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File Type: jpg 2D to 3d effects.jpg (214.1 KB, 17 views)
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post #28 of 50 Old 02-27-2013, 10:20 AM
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As a new owner of a Sony HDR-TD30V I must thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I wouldn't be so hot to play back the original 3D file format if the 3D and Surround Sound directly from the camera through my Marantz AV system (via HDMI) to a 60 inch Vizio HDTV didn't look and sound so darn good. Frankly, I was surprised. I needed a new HD camera and being a tech nerd I got the 3D just to play. But it looks cool for home movies and the 2D is terrific too. But when you have a 3D HDTV you might as well get the camera too.

Like dPaul, I wanted to be able to transport this quality that comes from the camera directly to friends and family away from home. Your USB storage device really helps because the chances are I will be bringing the camera along anyway. So until there is another player device that uses the original Sony format, I'll be happy storing on USB memories.

Thanks to all from another Paul.
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post #29 of 50 Old 02-28-2013, 06:35 PM
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I've owned a Sony HDR-TD20V since 4/2012, and like nycpaull I have been blown away by the quality of 3D played directly from the camera, viewed on a 47" LG 3D-TV. My videos are of grandkids and of retirement travel. Watching this way is as close to reliving as anything I have ever seen.

But I won't be really be satisfied until I can edit video using software like either my Sony Studio 12 or my Cyberlink Ultimate12 programs to add music, transitions, titles, etc. and put them on a disc that can be played on some 3D player (I have blu-ray) to view without losing ANY of all that native high resolution!! (Rendering to current Blu-ray discs is disappointing, sometimes even jerky when subject motion is moderate-to-quick.)

Until the means to do that becomes available, I will just use a <2 TB USB external HD for storage and playing back, as discussion on this thread has highlighted.

NOTE my main reason for posting: With that option in mind, I want to pass on a tip that the Toshiba Canvio Plus hard drive is really ideal. It comes in a 1.5TB model that measures only 4" X 3.5" X 5/8" and runs totally off the USB connection for its power. Perfect! It fits right in my camera pack with my TD20. Also note, Radio Shack (really!) has it on sale this week for $100, down from $119. After I backed up the Canio's NTSC preloaded software into my computer (should I ever need it in the future), I let the TD20 camera reformat the drive to FAT-32 and copy all its files to it. I was easily able to insert each of my accumlated SDHC cards in the TD20, and repeat the back up process to the Canvio. The camera detected what files have not yet been put on the external HD, and copied only those to the external drive.

(Still, I wish I knew how to motivate Sony/Panasonic to provide software/upgrades for editors, players, and/or computers to play back m2ts files in full resolution/5.1 sound! With the price drop of the new Sony TD30, 3D camera sales should really jump and add to the numbers of consumers wanting this problem resolved. Petiton???)
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post #30 of 50 Old 03-01-2013, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3David View Post

But I won't be really be satisfied until I can edit video using software like either my Sony Studio 12 or my Cyberlink Ultimate12 programs to add music, transitions, titles, etc. and put them on a disc that can be played on some 3D player (I have blu-ray) to view without losing ANY of all that native high resolution!! (Rendering to current Blu-ray discs is disappointing, sometimes even jerky when subject motion is moderate-to-quick.)

Until the means to do that becomes available...

That IS available. If you wish to playback on "some 3D players" only, then you can use an AVCHD 2.0/3D compatible 3D-Blu-ray player. See the AVCHD 2.0/3D thread for details.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
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