$800 budget 3d cam - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 08-19-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I would like to get a camcorder to record memories in 3d, but don't have the option of testing or viewing anything other than youtube files. I have watched most of Mark, Frank and Don's videos and really appreciate the hard work they have done, but am wondering how much better the original edited files look before youtube compression. I mainly want to record vacations and events, but also like to go out and record nature.
I had a gopro hero2 3d system with remote& wifi(for use when just recording in 2d) in the cart and noticed that I can get a TD10 for the same price so I came here and started reading everything in sight to aid my decision. After countless hours I now have a list of 3 to choose from, but would like to know which would best fit my needs.
Sony Td10. Leaning this way, but the lack of photos keeps me from taking the plunge.
Gopro Hero 2 setup. No zoom, looks to be more work to get viewable files. No stabilizer.
Panasonic 3d1 along with vegas and a few pieces of computer hardware. No zoom while recording, but with youtube as my medium seems to be just as nice if not better to my eye than the others.(Wondering how much difference I will see without compression)
Most viewing will take place on a Mitsubishi wd-73740 with Panasonic bdt210. I mostly to use the bdt210 youtube app for viewing. Thanks for your input.
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post #2 of 19 Old 08-19-2012, 02:40 PM
 
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I have the Sony TD10 (like carrying a brick), the Fuji W3 (great 3D viewing builtin, but indoor exposures are poor) and the Panasonic 3D1(great stablization and indoor exposure). The 3D1 is a favorite for video and stills and pocket size. Great indoor shots without a flash--can't beat it. Plus you get some control over exposure and apparent 3D depth. Most fun out of all three camcorder/cameras. Plus if youtube is your medium with a 3D TV, then you should be very happy with it. I also have the Panny BDT210 and it shows video and stills straight from the camera SD card no problem--on my Optoma HD3300 and 142" screen (like IMAX 3D at home eek.gifbiggrin.gif)
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post #3 of 19 Old 08-19-2012, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. I am leaning a tad towards the panny with yours and Mark's past comments. When viewing the card straight from the 210 is the image quality any better than youtube? I am starting to think that the bdt-210 youtube app might not be showing 1080 as everything looks better with anaglyph glasses on my laptop than on the tv.
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post #4 of 19 Old 08-19-2012, 03:47 PM
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MIN- In most of my complex projects I use a collection of cameras to achieve the best results for each shot. I mix the output from each camera and camera system in the edit and apply corrections as necessary. Then edit the video mostly to an iso file for personal viewing ( Blu Ray 3D ) and WMV SBS Half for upload to YT

My more simplistic projects are like others have shown here, use a single camcorder or a twin rig of one system and then render to YT for presentation.

I can tell you that if you do it right, YT will give you very little difference in PQ from the original SBS file I upload. YT quality of conversion is very very good IMO. The main degradation I see is what I do here when I take the high quality originals and render to a wmv SBS Half for the YT requirement. The degradation is just that the video goes softer than the original MVC or MPO files. I have also tested some h.264 SBS Half renderings too for YT upload and while the image color is a tiny bit cleaner ( less chroma noise) the difference is not worth the longer render times and much longer upload times as well as YT processing times. IMO, wmv gives a good bang for the time cost. Some projects I have done would be worth it so instead of gaining a tiny advantage with h.264, I upload a very large iso file to my server and give the link to those for free who are seriously interested in the higher quality. Then the recipient must unpack the file to an iso and burn it to a BD-R for a free highest quality content.

On most passive and active TV's the quality of the compressed iso on a Blu Ray disk is visually equal to the original clips if played right out of the camcorder's hdmi connection to the TV unedited.

TD10 vs Panasonic 3D1 vs Fuji W3

I don't own the W3 so I won't comment on it other than to repeat what others have told me- i.e. the image quality is not good.

The Pany 3D1 and the TD10 are two different camcorders that offer different advantages for the shooter. That is why I own both. You have to decide what sort of work you will be doing. If it is just family fun video and you won't edit much but need something easy and fast to grab the moment, no doubt the Panasonic 3D1 is your camera. It carries in your pants pocket of on a belt holster like a smart phone. Both the stills and videos offer 3D quality that I can easily mix with my TD10 clips in a project and with color correction make it very hard to tell the difference. But the Panasonic 3D1 has less creative capability with only a 4:1 zoom that cannot be zoomed while recording. The image stabilizer is much inferior to the TD10 but does offer significant improvement over none at all. If I'm going out to shoot a specific project whether it is a professional looking documentary or a family event, I will go the extra mile and carry the TD10 kit. If, like earlier today, I'm just out and about, need to be ready for an opportunity which happened today, I grab the 3D1 and a spare battery. Pop both in my pocket and go. Can't do that with the TD10. Today, when I leave the house I pocket the 3D1, my smart phone, a CW, my wallet and my keys. Always ready for any opportunity.
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post #5 of 19 Old 08-19-2012, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Don, I have been reading your posts here for a couple years and while most of it is Greek, I have retained some knowledge from your wisdom.
As for YT, when viewing from my bdt-210 app the quality is lacking. For instance, I can not see facial details in any of the dancers. I don't know the correct terminology, but to describe it, it is as if there is heat distortion covering the whole field of every YT 3d video I watch. I do not see this when viewing anaglyph on my laptop. Maybe in addition to a camcorder, I should buy a 3d card and go the HTPC route. I would appreciate threed testing this if possible since you have the same unit.

When considering my needs, the 3d1 would get much more use and has good overall features, but in anaglyph I can see a good bit more quality in the td10. The gopro also has good quality, but I will be filming in a lot of low light environments and would like to just plug straight to tv to view footage. Last year I was on the waterproof kick and narrowed down to either the gopro or Playsport ZX5. I went with the ZX5 and do like the quality for such a small cam, but every time I watch Discovery(which is daily) I kick myself for not getting a gopro. The grass is always greener.
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post #6 of 19 Old 08-20-2012, 12:23 AM
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I think, in the states the TD1 or the professionla version of the TD1 has become quite low in price.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
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post #7 of 19 Old 08-20-2012, 09:43 AM
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MIN-

After I realized I had almost the same BluRay Player ( BDT100) as you, I hooked up an internet cable and looked for the YouTube app. It took me a bit of trial and error to figure out how to navigate the app to get it to display full screen in 3D on my Vizio32" TV here in the edit suite. So, I went to my channel and loaded up several videos and you are correct. The app presents these YT videos in a very poor quality. It appears to be 1/8 screen area blown up to full screen which makes the 1080x1920 resolution 135x240. That image is just blown out to full screen. It causes an ugly pasty loss of detail you are seeing. This also was the same on 2D videos on YT.

I could not find a YouTube app on the Vizio ( strange) but looked at several others and while the quality varied, most all were of excellent quality. I also get excellent quality when I play my PC YOUTUBE access connected to the Vizio. Guess we can assume that the Panasonic YT player app is really awful!

I then tested my HiMedia 900b box I use here to play iso files from an internal 2Tb hard drive storage to my Vizio. It has two YouTube apps. One is a traditional player that would not play ANY you tube programs in the list. The other is You Tube XL and this played all 3D videos in full screen to the same quality that I get when playing the same wmv file I uploaded to You Tube. I would say that is about as good as it gets. The quality here is far superior to the Panasonic BDT100 app.

For great YT 3D playback in a simple device, I would recommend the HiMedia900B as it is far less expensive than a dedicated PC in your Home Theater and it can do more than just YT. The downside to this box is the search menu is awkward to use but the video quality is quite high. It also will not access menus Blu Ray menus of ripped media because it is not a licensed device. It will offer it's own menu access structure for BD 1.0 but this is nowhere the same as the original menus. For my purpose, using it as a player of my finished projects it is about as good and easy as it gets.
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post #8 of 19 Old 08-21-2012, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for testing Don,

I have decided on the 3d1 and am now researching hardware to make better use of YT. I did a quick search on the Himedia you have and there seems to be quite of bit of gripes about it. I am leaning more towards a HTPC since I would like to have features the himedia can't deliver.
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post #9 of 19 Old 08-21-2012, 12:34 PM
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Yes, I know of the complaint peanut gallery. IMO, it is a very minor flaw that most don't see. A single missing frame every so many hundred frames in 24p video. Seems there was more posts griping about that one missing frame from one person than I could see in my lifetime. biggrin.gif Other than that the device works great for my use, which is a flawless easy way to play iso files from the hard drive and the YT app too. Others complain about missing menu capability but that is a legal issue, not likely to change soon.

BTW- the best iso player with full menus is not sold anymore. It was the BD93 from OPPO with the December firmware. They had to disable it due to pressure from the studios. I got word soon enough and disconnected my BD93 from the internet so as not to suffer an automatic firmware change. It also had a YT app but when I did try it, it also had the poor quality as seen in the Panasonic.

I know a Home theater PC can offer you local BD-R burner and with good hard drive will allow you to easily rip media to hard drive. But the playback of the iso files is still a kludge with HTPC. Stereoscopic player and virtual drive is the way but I consider it a kludge to use. That's why I like set top boxes in the HT as opposed to computers. What other advantages do you see with a HTPC that maybe I'm not knowing about? Gaming? Not much of a gamer but I have the PS3 and XBOX360 here now.
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post #10 of 19 Old 08-21-2012, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Gaming would be the biggest advantage along with media storage like you mentioned. I would like to eventually convert my whole dvd collection over to digital. Vudu would be another option for that, but I haven't researched it other than to find out that it is $2 each, which would cost more than an HTPC for my collection. To be honest I know very little about the himedia and it may in fact serve my needs upon further research.
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post #11 of 19 Old 08-21-2012, 02:44 PM
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If you convert to digital from your collection elsewhere, the hard drive to archive in himedia 900b can be a good option. It also supports more external hard drive options, like USB 2.0. What impressed me on the 900b is the way you can swap out the internal hard drive as it is not bolted down but just plugged in with a flip open top. You can connect it to your lan and do the transfer or pull the drive and stick it in an esata cradle for much faster transfer. (That's what I do) Other than internet video apps that's about all it's good for. Not a gaming of player. It supports 3D which some of these devices do not, like Popcorn Hour. It also has a GUI for juke box style access of the hard drive contents, but it is not as slick as the one on the Popcorn hour.
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post #12 of 19 Old 08-22-2012, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I placed the orders today. DMC-3D1, 2 batteries, cheap tripod monopod combo, 2 32gb sdhc cards and a suction mount. Don also talked me into a Himedia 900b. I will now need editing software so please advise me on something good for a complete amateur. Would Vegas be best for me or is there something with less features that is easier to use?
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post #13 of 19 Old 08-22-2012, 03:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIN_Roadkill View Post

I placed the orders today. DMC-3D1, 2 batteries, cheap tripod monopod combo, 2 32gb sdhc cards and a suction mount. Don also talked me into a Himedia 900b. I will now need editing software so please advise me on something good for a complete amateur. Would Vegas be best for me or is there something with less features that is easier to use?

Before you worry about editing, take various indoor/outdoor videos and stills and get used to the camera. The E/V control is your friend both indoors and out. We've found that "0" rarely works and your images will most likely be over exposed-try "-2/3" for outdoors. Also, try various 3D separation settings. "0" is okay, but "-2" will give more depth, and "+2" is better for closeups. You do not need any editing software to enjoy the camera. All you need is your Panny BTD210 and a 3D TV. If you want to share some of your stills with us, then got Stereomaker (search Internet). It's free and works with most PCs including Windows XP, Vista and Windows 7. It allows you to create blue/red anaglyphs that you can post. There are other options, but that's left for another thread. Sony Vegas Platinum 11 or 12 appears to be the best choice for editing 3D, and it's relatively cheap--not to be confused with the Pro version selling for around $600. It has some gotchyas in terms of how you select your 3D file properties to get them to render correctly, and that will be your greatest frustration. Dragging 3D and stills to the timeline is a piece of cake, though and if you slightly overlap them they will create a builtin in transition for you. Good luck.
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post #14 of 19 Old 08-22-2012, 03:54 PM
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I agree, Sony Vegas Platinum is a good starting point. If you like editing, few people do, then you can upgrade to Pro later and you won't lose the learning curve. But you need to know that editing also requires a rather fast computer or it can get frustrating.
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post #15 of 19 Old 08-24-2012, 01:27 AM
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MIN
In case you didn't know, Youtube accepts sbs 1/2 files recorded by the 3D1 as is. No editing necessary.
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post #16 of 19 Old 08-24-2012, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

MIN
In case you didn't know, Youtube accepts sbs 1/2 files recorded by the 3D1 as is. No editing necessary.

And if you have Windows Movie Maker, which you can get for free, you can also edit the videos...
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post #17 of 19 Old 08-27-2012, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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My 3D1 came today. I charged the batteries and loaded the memory card at work and filmed on my way home. This camera is exactly what i wanted, I just needed you guys to convince me. Thanks!
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post #18 of 19 Old 08-28-2012, 04:21 PM
 
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Don,

Do you know what the difference is between a Himedia 900b and 910b, or 910a? Also, does it have a decent internet browser builtin? My dedicated HTPC is broken and I'm looking for a good, cheap substitute that will play YT, my homemade 3D movies, etc.

Thanks
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post #19 of 19 Old 08-28-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

Don,
Do you know what the difference is between a Himedia 900b and 910b, or 910a? Also, does it have a decent internet browser builtin? My dedicated HTPC is broken and I'm looking for a good, cheap substitute that will play YT, my homemade 3D movies, etc.
Thanks

I found the 910's cheaper and was about to order, but read that they have a 10/100 lan where as the 900b has a gigabit. If you will be viewing content from local disk then the 910 would be fine, if you are or will be networking content, get the 900b. Mine won't be here until mid September(ordered from China) so I can't comment on the internet browser.
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