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post #1 of 50 Old 09-24-2012, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Cyberlink PowerDirector 11 has been released. The "Suite" version includes ColorDirector and AudioDirector, two new apps that provide an integrated workflow with PowerDirector. Advanced 5.1 sound editing is now possible, along with other useful additions. Here's a review.

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post #2 of 50 Old 09-24-2012, 01:07 PM
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Of particular interest is that PD 11 can import and export 3D MVC files.

It can also create 3D disks in AVCHD 2.0 format. If I remember correctly, only Sony PMB / Play Memories Home could create disks in this format.

I purchased Director Suite 11 but haven't installed it yet since I am considering reinstalling Windows 7 first. There are loads of detritus on my system that is slowing it down.
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post #3 of 50 Old 09-24-2012, 01:57 PM
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Well, I have the press version here yet - but have not started to test it by now.

For 3D, there seems to be not a lot of new things, even if the AVCHD 2.0 3D discs could be of interest, if they allow to author 1080 50i/60i without conversion (what should be possible according to the AVCHD 2.0 possibilities).

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post #4 of 50 Old 09-24-2012, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it'll be great if we can author discs in 1920x1080 interlaced 3D. Converting to 3D progressive often leaves a lot to be desired. The AVCHD 3D files from my JVC TD1, however, are still not recognized as 3D in PowerDirector 11. Unfortunate. I still shoot everything in the JVC's original MVC mode, though, so that won't make much difference to me. I might not order for a couple of days. I'm busy with other projects right now. If anyone is able to create an AVCHD 3D disc, please report. That would be sweet.

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post #5 of 50 Old 09-24-2012, 08:29 PM
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PowerDirector 10 cannot link two separate video files into a stereoscopic pair. Can PowerDirector 11?
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post #6 of 50 Old 09-25-2012, 07:40 AM
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I want to know if it is worth upgrading to PD 11 from PD 11. I am partictularly interested in the 3D features. I downloaded the trail version but some of the 3D features are disabled.
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post #7 of 50 Old 09-25-2012, 09:59 AM
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The cost of an upgrade from PD10 Ultra to Director Suite 11 results in a $40 discount.
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post #8 of 50 Old 09-30-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorjharris View Post

I want to know if it is worth upgrading to PD 11 from PD 11. I am partictularly interested in the 3D features. I downloaded the trail version but some of the 3D features are disabled.

I am happy to report that PD11 does indeed support AVCHD 2.0 1080 60i export into a 3D menu with pristine picture quality. The only media to accept this export is either an SD card or flash memory. There is a complete Blu Ray file structure included with the export.
I created two short projects and copied them to thumb drives, copied the file structure from the thumb drive to my hard drive and then used ImgBurn to burn Blu Ray disks. The final result is well worth the effort.
It is just difficult to see why PD11 does not allow direct burn of the Blu Ray stucture to a Blu Ray disk.

There are also a selection of MVC options that provide direct 3D export to a Blu Ray disk. But some of them are pretty quirky:

1280x720 60p or

1920x1080 24p

I didn't care for the picture quality of the 1280 choice and found the 24p option to be very juddery.

Both of these options can be created with 3D menus.

*********************************************

If you prefer interlaced video, here are the choices:

1440x1080 60i or

1920x1080 60i

Both of these are created side x side half width and come without menus.

These mish mash options don't make much sense.

Marty
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post #9 of 50 Old 09-30-2012, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. That's great. As soon as I'm finished with my 2D project, I'm looking forward to trying it.

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post #10 of 50 Old 09-30-2012, 02:07 PM
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Those AVCHD 3D works also with 1080 50i and 1080 60i - as far as reported by user. One has to choose 3D and then AVCHD - and then you have 1080 50i, 720 50p and 1080 24p if you run a PAL project.

You have a BDAV structure that allows menus too. For BD you have to add an empty folder "certificate". A tool to do that is the CD-BurnerXP-

They have not added the feature to burn it to BD in a direct way, I think for licensing reasons.

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post #11 of 50 Old 09-30-2012, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Wolfgang. When I get a chance to breathe, I'd like to put together a How To guide in the first post of this thread, with info such as adding the "certificate" folder. It will probably come in handy until the market for AVDHD 3D software and hardware matures more.

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post #12 of 50 Old 10-04-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Thanks, Wolfgang. When I get a chance to breathe, I'd like to put together a How To guide in the first post of this thread, with info such as adding the "certificate" folder. It will probably come in handy until the market for AVDHD 3D software and hardware matures more.

Cool!
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post #13 of 50 Old 10-04-2012, 04:38 PM
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When you say it supports AVCHD 2.0 1080 60i export with menus - will it reencode compliant mvc clips or just eats them as is?
If it is a reencode - I'd rather stick with PlayMemories.
Thanks.
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post #14 of 50 Old 10-04-2012, 05:59 PM
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Just going to chip in here with some info. I bought the PowerDirector 11 Ultimate Suite last night to pretty much exclusively edit MVC60i 3D files (from my JVC) and the program recognises them no problems, allows you to edit them without having to split them first, and I did a test "burn" in AVCHD to a memory stick in 1080/60i 3D - all good so far, however...

I went back into the edit to check out the new color correcting programe that comes in the bundle, ColorDirector, and when I went to launch it was met with a rather rude dialog box that said something along the lines of ..
" ColorDirector does not work with 3D files".

Not great. I did a bit of research prior to buying this software and didn't stumble across any documentation pointing this limitation out. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but it definitely isn't obvious. Now I have to try and get a partial refund and downgrade to PD11 Ultimate (no suite).

On the bright side it looks like PD11 will be a nice simple workflow for getting the JVC's MVC 1080/60i 3D files to disk and the program itself has a slightly more advanced color-corrector built in, so that's good. Going to buy a AVCHD 2.0 blu-ray player tonight to test the final output quality.

Cheers,

Joe.
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post #15 of 50 Old 10-06-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFourMan View Post

Just going to chip in here with some info. I bought the PowerDirector 11 Ultimate Suite last night to pretty much exclusively edit MVC60i 3D files (from my JVC) and the program recognises them no problems, allows you to edit them without having to split them first, and I did a test "burn" in AVCHD to a memory stick in 1080/60i 3D - all good so far, however...
I went back into the edit to check out the new color correcting programe that comes in the bundle, ColorDirector, and when I went to launch it was met with a rather rude dialog box that said something along the lines of ..
" ColorDirector does not work with 3D files".
Not great. I did a bit of research prior to buying this software and didn't stumble across any documentation pointing this limitation out. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but it definitely isn't obvious. Now I have to try and get a partial refund and downgrade to PD11 Ultimate (no suite).
On the bright side it looks like PD11 will be a nice simple workflow for getting the JVC's MVC 1080/60i 3D files to disk and the program itself has a slightly more advanced color-corrector built in, so that's good. Going to buy a AVCHD 2.0 blu-ray player tonight to test the final output quality.
Cheers,
Joe.

Reference my post in this same forum,
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1304590/sony-hdr-td10-3d-capable-camcorder/1410#post_22462138

I'm very much interested to hear the results of your AVCHD 2.0 Blu-Ray test. Also, were you able to burn Blu-Ray discs directly from PD11 (or PD10 for that matter)? I see a lot of workflows that end with using another piece of software for burning the disc.
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post #16 of 50 Old 10-07-2012, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

I'm very much interested to hear the results of your AVCHD 2.0 Blu-Ray test. Also, were you able to burn Blu-Ray discs directly from PD11 (or PD10 for that matter)? I see a lot of workflows that end with using another piece of software for burning the disc.

Okay, my main goal was to actually see for myself what the JVC's 1080/60i 3d looked like displayed on my HD33 projector. I didn't even know if my projector would automatically go into this mode when playing an AVCHD 2.0 disk so it was all a bit of a gamble. The short answer to that question is it does. Here is what I am working with:

- JVC GY-HMZ1U 3D camcorder (records MVC 60i 3D much like it's little brother the TD1 as well as a 24p 3d mode but for this test I was focused on the 60i format)
- Optoma HD33 3d projector
- PD11 Ultimate Suite (bought specifically for this purpose)
- Panasonic BDT 220 bluray player (bought specifically for this purpose)

The results? As I mentioned yes the HD33 can playback 1080/60i 3d AVCHD 2.0 format, so as you can probably guess then yes PD11 Ultimate can edit and export natively this video format as well. So that is great right?
Well not completely no. Let me put it this way I've already returned the Panasonic BDT 220 blur ray player and I'm currently in the process of seeking a full refund of PD11 as well... why??

Simply put the image quality at 1080/60i 3D is not significantly better than 720/70p and in some cases I found it to be worse. Bear in mind my viewing conditions are 95" from about 3.5m back (I know I mixed metrics there sorry), so imperfections in the image show up pretty clearly. Also I should note that these are my personal findings so others may vary in opinion...

(I should perhaps note at this point that the 720/60p vision is being produced by Sony Vegas Pro 11 after splitting the JVC MVC 60i files are pairing them as stero pairs, exporting using the MVC 720p blu ray template, interpolate fields, smart sample & the 1080/60i is being output by PowerDirector Ultimate 11 using the AVCHD 2.0 1080/60i 28mbps preset)

Image Clarity 1080/60i 3d vs 720/60p 3d - very close maybe a slight edge to 1080/60i during static shots
Motion Clarity 1080/60i 3d vs 720/60p 3d - hands down 720/60p, its just about as perfect as I could hope for. The 1080/60i displayed double images on the faster moving sections and had a slight judder to it.
Image Artifacts 1080/60i 3d vs 720/60p 3d - 720/60p wins again for me, some very slight shimmering on distant fine lines whereas the 1080/60i produced by PD11 often displayed compressions blocks and other irregularities & still had the line shimmering.

The bottom line for me was the motion clarity of the 720/60p converted vision was just so much better that after just one evening with 1080/60i 3d I decided to not bother with it.

With regards to buring a AVCHD 2.0 blu ray the answer is no I didn't and couldn't as the option was greyed out within pd11. I instead "burned" this project to an SD card which I then plugged into the front of the BDT 220 blu ray player.

Your results may vary of course but these were mine, its a shame because I was hoping to be able to use the 1080i MVC mode of the JVC to shoot everything but now I'm still stuck with the dilemma of when to shoot 60i vs 24p. Its a tough life eh? :P

Cheers,

Joe.
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post #17 of 50 Old 10-07-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback, Joe. Sounds like PD11 is doing serious re-compression of the 3D signal. And the judder issue is even more disturbing, and puzzling. That's the opposite of what I hoped. I hoped Cyberlink could pass unaltered 1920x1080 MVC signals through to an AVCHD 2.0 3D disc, which would then play normally in one of the new players. I know the formats are different, and I expected some slight re-compression, but I didn't expect the level of image degradation you're describing.

I've yet to upgrade, and the trial won't let me create AVCHD 2.0 files on an SD card. I plan to do the full upgrade in a couple of days. However, my expectations are not high. Although PD11 says it's AVCHD 2.0 compliant and works with all major 3D camcorder makers, it doesn't see my TD1 60i AVCHD 2.0 files (MTS format) as 3D. It does recognize the mp4 files as 3D, like always. I haven't tried it with HMZ1 files yet, but I don't expect that will be any different. In the manual for my Panasonic Z10k, it says that its AVCHD 3D files may not work with all manufacturers' equipment. So, it seems it's still a standards mess when it comes to 3D. I am a bit more hopeful that the Panny Z10k video will look better, but given your experience I doubt it.

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post #18 of 50 Old 10-07-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. Sounds like PD11 is doing serious re-compression of the 3D signal. And the judder issue is even more disturbing, and puzzling. That's the opposite of what I hoped. I hoped Cyberlink could pass unaltered 1920x1080 MVC signals through to an AVCHD 2.0 3D disc, which would then play normally in one of the new players. I know the formats are different, and I expected some slight re-compression, but I didn't expect the level of image degradation you're describing.
I've yet to upgrade, and the trial won't let me create AVCHD 2.0 files on an SD card. I plan to do the full upgrade in a couple of days. However, my expectations are not high. Although PD11 says it's AVCHD 2.0 compliant and works with all major 3D camcorder makers, it doesn't see my TD1 60i AVCHD 2.0 files (MTS format) as 3D. It does recognize the mp4 files as 3D, like always. I haven't tried it with HMZ1 files yet, but I don't expect that will be any different. In the manual for my Panasonic Z10k, it says that its AVCHD 3D files may not work with all manufacturers' equipment. So, it seems it's still a standards mess when it comes to 3D. I am a bit more hopeful that the Panny Z10k video will look better, but given your experience I doubt it.

My results are not the same.

I start with video clips from my Sony TD10 camera, edit as needed and create an AVCHD 2.0 3D file with menu using PD11 that is burned (copied) onto a memory stick. Then I use ImgBurn to create a Blu Ray disk. ImgBurn not only burns ISO files; it also can take a complete Blu Ray structure and burns it onto a Blu Ray disk. The disk plays on my Sony S780 Blu Ray player and IMHO, I find the quality to be excellent with no degradation, judder, artifacts, pixellation or other issues. To make certain, I play the raw clips from the camera connected to my TV and see no difference in quality from the Blu Ray disk.

On the other hand, if I create a Blu Ray disk using one of the MVC presets,either 24P or 60P, I see lots of judder and an unsatisfactory quality picture. Since my goal was to create an AVCHD 2.0 disk and I can do it, I have no need for the other presets.

Don't give up on PD11 based on one negative evaluation.

Joe, the only way for you to satisfy yourself is to see the finished product. I would be happy to mail you a Blu Ray disk of a short project. Just let me know.

Marty
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post #19 of 50 Old 10-07-2012, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Marty. I appreciate the offer. Maybe I'll take you up on that via PM. smile.gif

I plan to upgrade very soon, so I'll be able to do some JVC tests of my own within the next week or so. I should have my Panasonic Z10k back soon, and I can test it, too. Cyclopital3D is finishing up work on the stereo base extender for the Panny now. It's been very challenging, because of Z10k's unique design, but it's almost finished.

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post #20 of 50 Old 10-07-2012, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. Sounds like PD11 is doing serious re-compression of the 3D signal. And the judder issue is even more disturbing, and puzzling. That's the opposite of what I hoped. I hoped Cyberlink could pass unaltered 1920x1080 MVC signals through to an AVCHD 2.0 3D disc, which would then play normally in one of the new players. I know the formats are different, and I expected some slight re-compression, but I didn't expect the level of image degradation you're describing.
.

Yeah it seems like its re-compressing for sure, my sample clip was about 1min30 long and took 50min to render/burn to an SD card (i5 2500k overclocked to 4.0Ghz 8gb ram, 6970) whereas Vegas will pump out a 3d Blu ray of over 12mins in less time. Also the timeline editing was horribly slow, shortening clips resulted in a 2-5 sec system pause regardless of the preview window quality. Only allowing shadow files made it workable.

I'm glad others are having more positive results with the Sony files, perhaps there's a difference in the way they are handled as opposed to the JVC files. Lets be honest there are so many variables amongst everyone's workflows that what doesn't work for one will work for another, I'm merely offering my feedback. (an expressing my disappointment as I really wanted it to work well).

I'd love to hear other JVC users feedback.
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post #21 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it's messy. I'm having issues in PowerDirector with 5.1 audio that I exported from Vegas. When I import it into PowerDirector, the levels are hotter and the separation between the front three tracks gets mucked up (for one thing, the isolated center channel ends up being mixed in with the right and left fronts). The 5.1 DTS tracks sound quite different than the audio I exported straight out of Vegas (besides lossy re-compression). Don Landis isn';t having that problem with his 5.1 audio in what seems to be the same basic workflow (although mine is a 2D only project in this particular case).

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post #22 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 11:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Yes, it's messy. I'm having issues in PowerDirector with 5.1 audio that I exported from Vegas. When I import it into PowerDirector, the levels are hotter and the separation between the front three tracks gets mucked up (for one thing, the isolated center channel ends up being mixed in with the right and left fronts). The 5.1 DTS tracks sound quite different than the audio I exported straight out of Vegas (besides lossy re-compression). Don Landis isn';t having that problem with his 5.1 audio in what seems to be the same basic workflow (although mine is a 2D only project in this particular case).

From my other audio work and your description, I think your 5.1 channels are being mixed (somewhere) into 2-channel and then back out to 5.1-channels. It's almost as if PowerDirector isn't recognizing a 5.1-channel input and trying to convert to 2-channel.

if it were Dolby Digital, I'd say you were reading the Downmix coefficients instead of the true 5.1-channel audio.
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post #23 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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From my other audio work and your description, I think your 5.1 channels are being mixed (somewhere) into 2-channel and then back out to 5.1-channels. It's almost as if PowerDirector isn't recognizing a 5.1-channel input and trying to convert to 2-channel.
if it were Dolby Digital, I'd say you were reading the Downmix coefficients instead of the true 5.1-channel audio.

Perhaps, but when I take a 5.1 output from Vegas and pull it right back into Vegas, everything looks and sounds normal, and the levels are good. When I bring that file into Cyberlink's new AudioDirector, the levels look hot, and in PowerDirector when I create a Blu-ray disc with 5.1 DTS audio, the front channels have music and VO mixed together, and the audio is indeed too hot. The rear channels don't have a trace of the VO, though.

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post #24 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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My first attempt at creating an AVCHD 2.0 3D video went pretty well, I think. I took about 8 34mbps mp4's from my TD1 and "burned" the short video to an SD card. It plays back in PowerDVD 12 and looks pretty good. It doesn't have much in the way of motion, though, so that's the next test. I've only had a few minutes to experiment.

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post #25 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

My first attempt at creating an AVCHD 2.0 3D video went pretty well, I think. I took about 8 34mbps mp4's from my TD1 and "burned" the short video to an SD card. It plays back in PowerDVD 12 and looks pretty good. It doesn't have much in the way of motion, though, so that's the next test. I've only had a few minutes to experiment.

Hey that's pretty interesting, you can play back the AVCHD 2.0 burn from your SD card through PowerDVD12? So no need for a blu ray player that supports AVCHD 2.0?
I might need to run some more tests. I'd be very interested to see if I get the same or better results from PowerDVD 12 as opposed to the Panasonic BDT220 player.
Does PowerDVD12 kick your display into 1080/60i 3d mode?

thx.
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post #26 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I just played the 3D MTS file from the stream folder. My display shifts into 3D automatically when I have PDVD set to 3D mode. I just picked up a Panasonic 320 the other day. I should be able to try it tomorrow with a test disc.

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post #27 of 50 Old 10-08-2012, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry. I'm a little bleary eyed. I don't know much yet, including whether PDVD can play 60i files smoothly. As I said, my clips don't have much motion, so I can't tell if PDVD is playing them back at 60i or 24p.

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post #28 of 50 Old 10-10-2012, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Although these results are very preliminary, here's what I've discovered in my first tests creating AVCHD 2.0 3D discs in PowerDirector 11 from JVC TD1 clips:

PowerDVD 12 plays back the AVCHD 2.0 3D (60i) disc at 24p, with the expected juddery look. From footage that originally looks very smooth and clean at 60i, there also seems to be significant image degradation (quite noticeable MPEG artifacts), even with moderate movement. Things get noisy fast. This surprises me a little, since I got very clean results converting JVC mp4 3D files into m2ts 3D files with PowerDirector 10. The conversions were far cleaner than what I'm getting here. PowerDVD 12 has not caught up with PowerDirector 11, and 3D computer playback in PDVD will not be satisfactory (unless an upgrade solves the problem).

Playback of the AVCHD 2.0 3D disc on my Sony 470 Blu-ray set top player is not at all juddery. 60i motion is smooth. And the MPEG artifacts don't seem as severe, either, but they're still there. It's not a workflow I'd recommend for serious projects where image quality is important. This is true for my JVC clips. I won't be able to test Panasonic clips until my Z10k returns. I'm hoping that the Panny clips will have to undergo less re-compression (none would be ideal smile.gif).

I'm sure most people here are aware of this, but it probably needs to be mentioned. Even if it's found that Sony and Panasonic clips are much better than their JVC counterparts (or that I'm not getting the best possible results from PD11 for some reason), this new AVCHD 2.0 3D capability (to play back 60i 3D video) will be of limited use for distribution and sharing of our 3D projects. Most 3D Blu-ray players in homes right now don't support AVCHD 2.0 3D and never will. My Samsung 3D player sees it as a data disc and won't play it at all (even the stream folder file). My older Sony player (460, IIRC) plays it only in 2D. Such 60i discs will be great if PowerDirector doesn't degrade the image too much, and if the resulting discs are played back on a newer player. Otherwise, we still need to convert the footage from 60i (to 1080/24p or 720/60p), if we want it to be playable on most existing 3D players. And that's still a compromise.

Joe Clark

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post #29 of 50 Old 10-11-2012, 02:02 AM
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That is the major limitation of the BDVA-AVCHD 2.0 3D disc structure: it is still not acceped by all 3D-Blu-ray player, even not by the newest one. The Sony 470 is a little bit outdated - the new one seems to be the Sony BDP-S490. But also here the question comes into my mind: will the S490 ba able to playback that structure.

It is a pitty. We have discussed that one year ago, and nothing seems to have changed in terms of compatibility.

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post #30 of 50 Old 10-11-2012, 12:22 PM
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Need some opinions ahead of my rendering-

I have one POV from a distance shot in 1080 60p The second POV is much closer shot awhile back of the same performance but in 1080 24p. Both sets of clips have been paired and the visual sync is quite close considering the two shoots were done about 7 months apart. The plan is to switch between the two POV's to achieve a base video wide shot with closeups for detail.

The question is how to render? 24P or 60i, or 720 60p. I'm favoring 720 60p in this case for BD compatibility and also since the subject doesn't really need high resolution of 1920.

How will the 24p up convert to 60p or how will the 60p down convert to 30p. Note I have done the second one before as a test and did not see any problems for YouTube
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