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post #1 of 51 Old 11-03-2012, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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The AVCHD 3D standard has been developed as part of the AVCHD 2.0 standard, and is dated to 1st July 2011.

http://www.avchd-info.org/

The interesting aspect: while the standard for 3D-Blu-ray is based on the expensive MVC-encoding technology only, and is restricted to 720 50p, 720 60p and 1080 24p for s3D, the AVCHD 3D standard as part of the AVCHD 2.0 specification allowas also 1080 50i and 1080 60i. Since s3D cameras like the JVC-TD1, Sony TD10/TD20 use 1080 50i/60i, a quality reducing conversion from 1080 50i/60i to 720 50p/60p and 1080 24p is required to come up with a MVC-based profile 5 3D-BD.

Formates for AVCHD 2.0:
http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html

The small tools delivered with the cameras - like the PMB or now the PMH for Sony, or similar tools from Panasonic and JVC, allow very simplified editing only, but allow to generate BDAV-structures on BD-R/RE that can be used to playback footage from those cameras without conversion.

The fact, that the editing has been very simplified only, has lead to a lot of discussions about the question how usefull those tools are. There has been different answers to that, howerver. In the meantime we have seen the emergence of some tools that are able to generate AVCHD 3D structures - like Cyberlinkes PD11, Pinnacle Studio 16 but now also Edius 6.52. This helps to overcome the old discussion if such tools are helpfull really, since now it has become possible BOTH to edit the footage, but also to render to 1080 50i/60i outcome that can be authored to an AVCHD 2.0 based AVCHD 3D structure.

The purpose of that thread is to
a) identify the newer BD-Player, that are able to playback AVCHD 3D structures
b) identify workflows how such structures can be created
c) test the interaction between b) and a), to allow to come up with clear established workflows that can be used by user to ensure their own workflow.

It should be mentioned in the very beginning, that there are still some drawbacks:
- older 3D-BD-player will not be able to playback such AVCHD 3D discs. So for handouts the MVC-based 3D-BD-structure is still more on the secure side
- even for newer 3D-BD-players it is not well documented if such players support AVCHD 2.0 really. That may be found in some footnotes of the user manuals only.

Beside that ,much fun with the quest for a AVCHD 3D workflow/route! biggrin.gif

Kind regards,
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post #2 of 51 Old 11-03-2012, 05:00 PM
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Thanks for starting this thread, Wolfgang.

To start, here's a workflow that's been pretty consistent for me up this point with JVC MVC footage.

Start with JVC TD1 footage, shot in high quality mp4 (lower or higher bitrate) or AVCHD 3D modes.

The fastest process (with no re-compression) uses AVCHD 3D mode:

1. Shoot your footage on the TD1 in AVCHD 3D mode. Set this in the camera's menu. Note that this mode may not be available on your camera until you upgrade to the latest firmware. NOTE: Download and follow the upgrade directions carefully, since you may damage your camera if the upgrade is interrupted.
2. Using the "Edit Movies" icon, do basic editing in the Everio MediaBrowser 3D software that ships with the TD1. Check for the latest version here. If you have the old version, make sure you upgrade, or you will not be able to edit AVCHD 3D footage. Select the type of footage you want to edit (AVCHD 3D), then how you want to export it (also AVCHD 3D). Don't confuse AVCHD 3D with AVCHD 2D or AVCHD Side by Side.) Follow the prompts to start editing. Basic editing allows you to cut heads and tails from the clips, add dissolves, overlay simple titles, and add music. Note where the edited movies are saved. These movies also appear in the MediaBrowser library when you finish editing a movie. More details coming later, if requested.
3. Go back to the main menu and select "Create Disc." Drag your edited movies into the timeline and click "Next." Put a blank Blu-ray disc in the drive and click "Start." (NOTE: This doesn't work with DVD blank discs.) AVCHD 3D footage does not need to re-encode, so the process should go very quickly. The original quality is maintained in everything except dissolves and titles, but they appear to be of very high quality, too, and don't slow the process much.

When the disc finishes, try it in an AVCHD 3D capable Blu-ray player. I have the Sony 480 and 590 players. Both play back these discs through a Denon 1312 3D capable AVR to an LG LM7600 passive 3D TV. I have issues playing this 3D video back onto an Epson 6010 projector. The resolution is reduced to what looks like less than DVD quality. Apparently, different gear responds to different AVCHD 3D playback devices differently.

The process for creating such discs from JVC mp4 files (lower or higher bitrate) is the same. However, mp4 files must be re-encoded to AVCHD 3D before they can be burned to disc. The process seems to involve some image degradation from the original, but it is still high quality (but no higher than native AVCHD 3D mode). When doing the edit, select mp4 instead of AVCHD 3D for the original clips, but keep AVCHD 3D as the export format.

Discs created with MediaBrowser 3D are in the BDAV format.

More to come, and perhaps changes to this, as new information becomes available.

Please submit your results so others can benefit from your experience.

Wolfgang,

Perhaps you could detail the process for Sony TD10 users.

BTW, raw Panasonic Z10000 clips (as MTS files) can be imported into MediaBrowser 3D and edited like the JVC clips. Once such clips have been imported to the computer via Panasonic's software and converted to m2ts format, they can no longer be used in MediaBrowser. Also, video shot in AVCHD 3D mode on the JVC TD1 can be played back on a Panasonic Viera 3D TV right from the memory card. At least this was my experience a few months ago when AVCHD 3D capability was added to the TD1.

More to come on the creation of AVCHD 3D discs in Edius 6.52.

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post #3 of 51 Old 11-04-2012, 09:05 AM
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A quick question on your TD1 workflow...

During my recent vacation, I shot AVCHD 3D when I had good lighting and some AVCHD 2D when the light wasn't so good or when I needed the 10x zoom.

I now want to edit all the footage and combine both 2D and 3D footage to create a 3D disk - any thoughts on how this might be possible?

I realize of course that there would be no 3D effects on the 2D footage smile.gif

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post #4 of 51 Old 11-04-2012, 10:33 AM
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What software will you be using, Steve? With most, you can mix and match different formats. I haven't seen Vegas, Edius or PowerDirector have a problem with mixed 2D and 3D. 2D just ends up looking flat in the finished project. I doubt it will work in MediaBrowser, but I haven't tried it. Experiment. It might work even there.

One way to "simulate" 3D with 2D is to pair two instances of a 2D clip and add some z-axis depth. I don't think this will work in PowerDirector, but it works in Vegas and Edius. Especially if it's a distance shot, this will fool most people into thinking it's real 3D. It works best if there's nothing in the foreground. Of course, simulated 3D (even if it's with tools built into the software) doesn't come off looking nearly as good as real 3D.

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post #5 of 51 Old 11-04-2012, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is another solution that is tested and works here - based on Edius:

I would like to describe a more general workflow - that can be used for 1080 50i/60i footage from a TD10, TD20 but also a TD1 or Z10K. Especially for TD1 users this workflow could also be of interest, since Edius is one of the tools that can be used to edit TD1 footage.

- Generate a 1080 50i or 1080 60i project in Edius (it is important to choose correct project settings, to get the export automatically right)

- import the footage, edit it however you like

- when you are ready for the export, you choose File/Export/In File export (I hope the wording for the menus of Edius is right, since I translate it from a German version).

- then you choose AVCHD, and here AVCHD 3D Writer

- there is the possiblity to adjust things like framerate (in the left corner down) - here you can go to 1080 50i, 1080 60i, 1080 23,976p (=23,98) for example). If you do not choose that, Edius will use the project settings (that is the reason why the project properties should be right). After that adjustment, you say export.

- In the export windows, you make following adjustements:
a) choose the export to a directory where you wish to have the data structure
b) set the data rate to the maximum (so 26M for BD. For DVD, the maximum should be 18M if the player works strickt to the AVCHD 2.0 standard)
c) choose memory stick/hdd camera

- render the file structure

- you can copy the file structure to a memory stick - my Sony 590 plays back that fine
- you can use tools like CDBurnXP to burn the structure to BD-R/RE. Here you should fomar the BD as udf, and burn the folder BDMV and anything below. Choose burn at once, that worked for me.

Another workflow can be to use the Sony PMH to author a BDAV-structure, the PMH is more flexible then the Panasonic or JVC tool and will accept the output from Edius or Pinnacle Studio 16 too- but you will have that tool only if you have the Sony TD10/TD20.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
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post #6 of 51 Old 11-05-2012, 03:29 PM
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Wolfgang,

I believe this is the best workflow for TD1 users who want to maintain high quality and smooth motion. I export to an SD card (using AVCHD 3D Writer), then burn the files to disc using ImgBurn. I'll put the workflow in my post above (with the exact English menu wording used in Edius), so as to keep it all consolidated in one place.

This workflow is great for creating AVCHD 3D discs. It gives TD1 users access to Edius' sophisticated editing tools (color correction, 3D control, titling, etc.). It works great with my Sony 480/590 players, Denon 3D receiver and LG passive 3D display. I have a problem with my Epson projector using this process, in that it lowers the resolution when played back from disc. Played back from an SD card on the Panasonic 320 player, it looks good, but to me that's an impractical solution. I don't want to tie up expensive SD cards with edited projects, when discs are so cheap.

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post #7 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, it may not be necessary to tie up SD-cards - since you can also render the output to a harddrive directory. The only disadvantage that I see is that you have to burn a Blu-ray for many players - not every one accepts DVDs, what is a pitty since the data rate is lower for DVDs, according to the specification.

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post #8 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 09:09 AM
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I'm going to experiment with hard drive storage today. My Sony players don't have a problem with DVDs that contain 26mbps AVCHD 3D content.

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post #9 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Well, it may not be necessary to tie up SD-cards - since you can also render the output to a harddrive directory. The only disadvantage that I see is that you have to burn a Blu-ray for many players - not every one accepts DVDs, what is a pitty since the data rate is lower for DVDs, according to the specification.

In my first test, the Sony 480 player didn't recognize the content on the USB hard drive I rendered the AVCHD 3D folder to (from Edius). It saw the hard drive, and the folder, but it wouldn't play back the AVCHD 3D content. Have you gotten hard drive playback with the Sony 590 player? I've yet to try that.

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post #10 of 51 Old 11-06-2012, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I'm going to experiment with hard drive storage today. My Sony players don't have a problem with DVDs that contain 26mbps AVCHD 3D content.

The Sony 480? Well, this unit is still more expensive - do not know why.

The 590 is the new version, but does not like the DVDs, at least not with the high data rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

In my first test, the Sony 480 player didn't recognize the content on the USB hard drive I rendered the AVCHD 3D folder to (from Edius). It saw the hard drive, and the folder, but it wouldn't play back the AVCHD 3D content. Have you gotten hard drive playback with the Sony 590 player? I've yet to try that.

Well, the 590 recognizes an usb stick with the file structure from Edius.

And yes, the 590 is able to playback content from hard drives. I have tested that with the FAT32 formated harddrive from my SAT-receiver, you can playback the recorded VOB-files. I think it will also recognize an ntsf formated hard drive, but I have not tested that yet. One disadvantage: from an hard drive, the playback seems to take place with 60i (even if the footage is PAL footage), but that will not be a disadvantage for NTSC user.


For me that player will not substitute my 3D-Prodigy - but will be usefull for additional sources with 1080 50i for playback.

Kind regards,
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post #11 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 09:51 AM
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Just as an aside...

Has anyone had problems using Edius with Windows 8 - I upgraded to Windows 8 (and I absolutely love the improvements) but before I pull the trigger on Edius I want to make sure it's compatible as I read some less than complementary threads on Edius, their support and their compatibility with the pre-release versions of W8
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No first hand experience with Windows 8, Steve. I do know that Win8 out of the box doesn't have the DVD and Blu-ray codec packs, and I've read of some compatibility issues. I'm strictly Windows 7 at this point. I believe you can download the Windows Media Center Pack (or whatever it's called) for free for a couple of months, then it's $10. (Not sure of the specifics.)

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post #13 of 51 Old 11-07-2012, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Same for me - Win8 sounds not very sexy for me at the moment.

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post #14 of 51 Old 11-08-2012, 09:36 PM
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Windows 8 has been a huge improvement for me (i7 4GB laptop) - faster loading and faster app loading too. When you try it I think you will like it but it doesn't help when the software apps don't run frown.gif Maybe give it a year before you change.

I'm trying Magix Video Pro X4 instead at the moment which seems to run just fine on Win8 - imported my AVCHD3D files OK but will try burning a BD to see how good it actually is.
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post #15 of 51 Old 11-09-2012, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I do not know if Magix Pro X4 offers AVCHD 3D really. Have not tested that - not yet.

Yesterday Pinnacle published a first patch for Pinnacle Studio 16. I have not been able to test that by now - but maybe they have increased the limit for the AVCHD 3D Blu-rays?? There were at least some rumors that they plan to do that - even that would be outside the specification. But if it works.... maybe nice. biggrin.gif

http://declic-video-fx.com/language/en-US/News/ID/1524/Download-Pinnacle-Studio-patch-1601.aspx

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post #16 of 51 Old 01-13-2013, 04:29 PM
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Wolfgang, I can't figure out how to create output in Pinnacle 16 that PMH will read. I've tried AVCHD outputs, but when I try to import into PMH, they can't be found. Any suggestions or specifically how I create such output in Pinnacle? Thanks so much.
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post #17 of 51 Old 01-13-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The isssue is that I have deleted the Pinnacle software again from my system, after testing it. As far as I remember you have to use multistream, and render the file in a directory that is asigned in the PMH (or better PMB). I am afraid that this is what I can say only.

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post #18 of 51 Old 01-15-2013, 08:22 PM
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I finally realized my Panasonic BDT210 doesn't read AVCHD 2.0 files--thought it did after the last firmware upgrade. Anyway, I'm going out tomorrow to get a Sony 590. I also researched and found out the Panasonic BDT500 supports AVCHD 2.0 on an SD card (only).

And, I updated Pinnacle 16 with the patch and now when I create an image it goes about halfway through and stops for no reason and hangs there forever. I've tried it on several projects and the same thing. I will not complete. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling P16 and the patch, and the same thing, so tomorrow, I'm uninstalling and reinstalling without the patch. Any ideas as to what might be happening I have i7 intel desktop running Windows 7 64-bit.
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I got my Sony 590 today, hooked it up and played all my AVCHD 2 assets I've created in the past. I have to say that after a month of trying everything I could get my hands on (read spend, spend, spend), AVCHD 2 multistream 3D just does not look good on my Optoma HD3300, so I'm abandoning efferts and will stick with plugging in media directly from camera, which are okay, just not convenient.
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post #20 of 51 Old 03-21-2013, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Wolfgang,

I believe this is the best workflow for TD1 users who want to maintain high quality and smooth motion. I export to an SD card (using AVCHD 3D Writer), then burn the files to disc using ImgBurn. I'll put the workflow in my post above (with the exact English menu wording used in Edius), so as to keep it all consolidated in one place.

This workflow is great for creating AVCHD 3D discs. It gives TD1 users access to Edius' sophisticated editing tools (color correction, 3D control, titling, etc.). It works great with my Sony 480/590 players, Denon 3D receiver and LG passive 3D display. I have a problem with my Epson projector using this process, in that it lowers the resolution when played back from disc. Played back from an SD card on the Panasonic 320 player, it looks good, but to me that's an impractical solution. I don't want to tie up expensive SD cards with edited projects, when discs are so cheap.

Joe, can you comment on the quality of the AVCHD disc 3D playback ( actual video quality) through your Sony players on your TV, vs. raw video directly from the camera, or a 1080 24p standard BD conversion through a standard player? Is there much degradation? Does it look better than a standard conversion to 1080 24p?
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post #21 of 51 Old 03-21-2013, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

Joe, can you comment on the quality of the AVCHD disc 3D playback ( actual video quality) through your Sony players on your TV, vs. raw video directly from the camera, or a 1080 24p standard BD conversion through a standard player? Is there much degradation? Does it look better than a standard conversion to 1080 24p?

Honestly, I sort of gave up on this whole AVCHD 3D 2.0 workflow. The quality with my Sony players and the displays they're attached to was very good. Motion was better than converting 60i to 24p, of course. But I never did get the Epson to show things in full quality. Also, the fact that few players can deal with this "standard" made it not worth the effort for me. I'll convert my existing 60i footage to 24p, which means there are some shots I won't be able to use. In the future, I'll shoot at 24p for most projects (HMZ1 and Panasonic Z10000). For fast motion, I still shoot at 60i and then convert to 1280x720/60p, which also works well with the existing Blu-ray 3D standard.

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post #22 of 51 Old 07-30-2013, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Honestly, I sort of gave up on this whole AVCHD 3D 2.0 workflow. The quality with my Sony players and the displays they're attached to was very good. Motion was better than converting 60i to 24p, of course. But I never did get the Epson to show things in full quality. Also, the fact that few players can deal with this "standard" made it not worth the effort for me. I'll convert my existing 60i footage to 24p, which means there are some shots I won't be able to use. In the future, I'll shoot at 24p for most projects (HMZ1 and Panasonic Z10000). For fast motion, I still shoot at 60i and then convert to 1280x720/60p, which also works well with the existing Blu-ray 3D standard.

I suspect that "The Hobbit" director Peter Jackson, and advocate for 48p-3D a.k.a. "HFR," feels the same way when he has to view his creation from a bluray at 24p. I saw this 3 times at the theater in HFR. biggrin.gif

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post #23 of 51 Old 07-30-2013, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
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I suspect that "The Hobbit" director Peter Jackson, and advocate for 48p-3D a.k.a. "HFR," feels the same way when he has to view his creation from a bluray at 24p. I saw this 3 times at the theater in HFR. biggrin.gif

What was your impression? I have friends in the biz who don't like it, but I've yet to see that film in HFR. I tend to think there will be an acclimation phase where people accustom themselves to the new look before it's more widely accepted.

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post #24 of 51 Old 07-30-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
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What was your impression? I have friends in the biz who don't like it, but I've yet to see that film in HFR. I tend to think there will be an acclimation phase where people accustom themselves to the new look before it's more widely accepted.

I saw Hobbit HFR in 3D at 3 different theaters. There was some difference between these three in aspects of gamma, contrast, brightness, but the HFR effect was fantastic at each. HFR made the picture smooth in almost all pans. I paid close attention and recall only two moments in the movie where motion didn't seem smooth. Movements of water and other scenery was spectacular. The picture always seemed sharper in HFR. Conclusion is that HFR is excellent and better than 24p, and more enjoyable.

24p is noticeably different from real life.

I recall how much I enjoyed the scene in the Hobbit with the dishes flying around in HFR at the theater, since this was the first segment where the HFR was incredibly better. This is missing in the 24p bluray.

I saw the 24p-3D "Oz 3D" movie at the theater shortly after that. Though I liked the movie and 3D, I noticed many instances where motion wasn't smooth at 24p. These errors in how the film is shot are more difficult to avoid with 24p than 48p.

I always thought 24fps was an outdated technology carried over from the limitations of film now 100 years old.

Since the 24p frame rate and calorimetry of film can be replicated by the 48p digital system, I see that the actual reasons to suppress 48p include the cost to upgrade equipment and new training requirements to shoot and use that palette.

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post #25 of 51 Old 07-30-2013, 05:33 PM
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It's hard to break free of our conditioning, even to things that are bad. I have no loyalty to 24fps or, for that matter, to film itself. Whether traditionalists want it or not, in the not too distant future film as a production medium will be gone completely. I'll be happy to see low frame rates eliminated, too. We'll recondition ourselves fast enough to a totally digital, HFR world, with its more realistic representation of the way we perceive motion. I used to ask people to consider this question: if you grew up with the best, most pristine digital images any camera could produce, how do you think you'd react if asked to watch only grainy film shot at 24fps? And how would you react if asked to shoot and edit only film, with all the inherent limitations involved in that ancient production workflow? I think such a person would be horrified at either prospect. I'd put a hefty wager on that.
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post #26 of 51 Old 07-31-2013, 12:57 AM
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Hey Joe- Few of us are old enough to have gone through the two early generations of movie editing-

Film chain I still have my Super 8 edit table, with sound tracker and the bottle of cement.
Tape to tape I still have my ABC roll edit controller
All digital
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post #27 of 51 Old 07-31-2013, 10:48 AM
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In the early 80's, for my media program, I spent over $10,000 each for time base correctors to stabilize 3/4" videotape enough to do dissolves. eek.gif I never worked much with film, but my program had several Super 8mm film editing stations. Replacing all that is ludicrously easy and cheap with a computer today. When I did my first independent non-linear video editing project (with rented gear, because it was so new and expensive), I knew the editing world had changed forever. I did pre-production, production and post production for a little seven minute project in 3 weeks. We shot for a solid week in 26 locations, digitizing the betacam footage as we went. The post production was ridiculously easy compared to what editing on tape would have meant, despite the client's numerous requests for changes. Tape-based editing would have doubled or tripled the completion time, and it never would have looked as good as it did. Doing the project on film would have been impossible, given the deadline. becoming nostalgic for the "good old days" of video and film is impossible for me. The aVCHD 2.0 issue with 3D video editing is a tiny hiccup compared to the problems of the past. It's hard not to get frustrated sometimes, but I try not to lose that perspective. smile.gif

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post #28 of 51 Old 07-31-2013, 11:28 AM
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I never bought a TBC for my 3/4Umatic decks, Joe. They were out of my7 league. I did buy around 1988, a Panasonic "Mixer" that used the newest technology which was a frame store synchronizer I recall it was about $3000 back then. But you only needed one as it mixed any non synchronous video signals. About 6 months after that the Toaster came out and that was the big game changer, soon followed by the Avid and Media 100. When I switched my video agenda from underwater to Broadcast advertising, I spent for a FAST Video Machine which was the first timeline editing system yet still a deck controller. Then I got their DPR which blended true nonlinear editing with hard drives and decks tape feeds. It was quite the system. I used that until Vegas 1.0 came out from Sonic Foundry. It wasn't called Vegas but was a video track in their Sonic Foundry audio editor.

OK enough of nostalgia. I promised Richard Adams I would do his experiment so I better get busy. smile.gif
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post #29 of 51 Old 03-03-2014, 10:32 AM
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Wolfgang,

 

Lets suppose we edited Sony's or JVC's 1080i frame packed videos without compromising from quality, and created a AVCHD 3D FRAME PACKED 1080 60i disc and our bluray player supports it! Then what about TVs and Projectors? As far as I know, most active shutter 3d TVs and latest 3D projectos including Benq's and Optoma's (consumer models) DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS RESOLUTION? Am I wrong? What kind of displays support AVCHD 3D 1080 frame packed 60fps interlaced videos? Thanks 

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post #30 of 51 Old 03-03-2014, 11:17 AM
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The original 2010-2011 era 3D displays (such as my Samsung C8000 3D plasma and JVC RS40, and Panasonic sets I tried in stores) supported the frame packed 60i 3D format from my JVC TD1. I've had all sorts of compatibility issues with my newer 3D displays (Samsung D7000 plasma and Epson 6010 projector). Instead of progressing, the manufacturers have muddied the waters even more. As far as I'm concerned, they've made a complete mess of the 1080/60i 3D format. There is no "standard" that allows us to maintain all the original image quality and motion resolution, and that plays consistently across devices. From my point of view, if you're serious about editing, the only real "solution" is to shoot with the limitations of the format in mind and convert to 1080/24p or 720/60p (for NTSC anyway). Those formats work with existing Blu-ray 3D players and displays. I have software that came with my JVC camcorder that allows me to maintain original quality for the most part, but it's not a serious editing solution. It's too limited in its functionality, and there are too many caveats.

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