Blu-Ray players capable of outputting 720p frame packed 3D? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 12-12-2012, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I just upgraded projectors to a Vivitek D803W-3D. This model can display frame packed 3D via DLP Link, but only with an input resolution of 720p. It seems my Sony BD-S570 player can not output frame packed 3D at 720p. Can the experts here help me verify what players ARE capable of outputting 720p frame packed 3D?

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post #2 of 16 Old 12-13-2012, 06:58 AM
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Are you sure about that? 720 50p/60p is specified for MVC-based 3D-Blu-ray, and I wonder why the S590 should not be able to deliver that output.

But I will check that for you - since I have here an S590 (but in the PAL version).

I assume you are talking about 720 60p?

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post #3 of 16 Old 12-13-2012, 09:25 AM
 
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I just looked up the standards and, unless I misread them, both 1080p/24 3D and 720p/60 3D must be supported by BD 3D players, HDMI transceivers and display devices.
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post #4 of 16 Old 12-13-2012, 10:17 AM
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I can confirm that my Sony S590 is capable to playback 720 50p MVC-based 3D-Blu rays as frame packed 3D, generated with Vegas Pro. So I see no reason why the S590 should not be able to playback 720 60p too. I think there must be another reason why it does not work for you - but not on the side of the player.

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post #5 of 16 Old 12-13-2012, 01:40 PM
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I've never seen a 3d bluray player that won't output 720p. I know my samsungs do and my ps3's do. I have an Optoma HD66 projector and mine is also 720p 3d and it looks great.
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post #6 of 16 Old 12-13-2012, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm looking for a player that can output 720p frame packed 3D from a standard 1080p 3D disc. On the S570 I can set the 2D output to 720p, but the only options I have for 3D are "Auto" and "Off". The S570 is a 3D capable HDMI 1.3 player, so it is possible it isn't completely compliant with the 3D spec...?

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post #7 of 16 Old 12-13-2012, 10:52 PM
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It is compliant with the 3D BD-ROM specification, for sure. But this specification does not say that the player must be able to resize the footage from 1080 24p to 720 60p. It only states that playback can take place from the formates 1080 24p, 720 50p and 720 60p. But the need for resizing is another story, I think.

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post #8 of 16 Old 12-16-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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While it may have been poorly worded, this was the intent of my original question. What Blu-Ray players can output 720p60 frame packed 3D from a 1080p source?

Thanks in advance.

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post #9 of 16 Old 12-17-2012, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone comment?

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post #10 of 16 Old 12-17-2012, 01:19 PM
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I do not know if there is a 3D-BD player where one can adjust the output format for s3D. The 3D-Prodigy can do that, but that is no 3D-BD player but a hard-disc player.

Beside that you will not be happy maybe - since video with such a conversion from 1080 24p to 720 60p will stutter a little bit. I do not know your footage, I do not know if there are fast movements or not -but that could be an issue.

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post #11 of 16 Old 12-17-2012, 01:58 PM
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You do not need a 3D Blu-ray player that converts 1080p 3D Blu-ray discs to 720p60 Frame Packing. That projector accepts 1080p24 Frame Packing and converts that internally to 720p.

For any display to advertise 3D via HDMI, they must accept, at minimum, 5 different formats of 3D signals. According to the web-site spec sheet, http://www.vivitekusa.com/productdetail.php?product_id=83, this model accepts: 720p 50/60 Frame Packing, 1080i 50/60 Side-by-Side, 1080p24 Frame Packing. It most likely also accepts top/bottom in 1080p24 and 720p 50/60.

HDMI rules require these and if the display accept 720p 50 and 60 Hz video in 2D then it must accept both it in 720p frame packed 3D. Those are the rules from HDMI LLC.

Also if the display does not provide the EDID for 3D to the Blu-ray player, the Blu-ray player will never send either frame packed formats because without the EDID the Blu-ray player has no way to known the display is compatible and will not be damaged by the signal.
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post #12 of 16 Old 12-18-2012, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I feel like a complete tool now... the problem indeed wasn't with the player's output, but my HDMI cable. It's been nearly 7 years since I ran it in-wall and my flawed memory told me it was a 35' 24 AWG Monoprice cable. Looking back at my order history, it turns out it's a 50' 24 AWG and it just doesn't have the bandwidth for Frame Packed 3D. Testing my Sony player with a 6' HDMI cable directly to the projector resulted in the proper 3D playback.

Further testing with a Panasonic BDT220 player capable of SBS output of 3D Blu-Ray found that my in-wall/ceiling cable can carry a 1080p SBS signal just fine (already confirmed with HTPC). The SBS output of the Panasonic looked good with the only clearly notable degredation of image quality being some jagged edges on text (the 3D trailer for "Planes" at the beginning of "Brave" was where I noticed it). Now I guess I need to decide if that is an acceptable solution (which also allows me to maintain lossless audio over HDMI to my HDMI 1.3 AVR), or if I want to try to run a Monoprice RedMere cable. Either will cost me around $60-$70, but going with the Panasonic player will be a lot less work and solve my lossless audio problem as well.

One quirk worth noting with the Panasonic BDT220 SBS solution is when connected directly to the projector, even when setting 3D output to SBS, the player would revert back to Frame Packed and showed a message saying it was doing to because the display was FullHD 3D capable. Only by routing the HDMI output through my HDMI 1.3 AVR (effectively hiding the fact that the display is FullHD 3D capable from the player) was I able to get SBS output to stick.

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post #13 of 16 Old 12-18-2012, 08:42 AM
 
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Let's back-up a bit...1080p 3D from Blu-Ray is carried as a 1080p/48 signal. In other words, it uses less bandwidth than a 1080p/60 2D signal does. So, the first quesiton is can your in-wall cable handle 1080p/60? 1080p/24 is what most movies use but the real question is whether it can carry 1080p/60.

There is no such thing as 1080p SbS. It is actually either 1080i SbS or 720p SbS. Both those are the exact same bandwidth as regular 1080i and regular 720p. Any HDMI cable (undamaged cable) is capable of carrying 1080i SbS or 720p SbS.

I regularly run 1080p/24 3D over a monoprice 50' foot cable connected to two other cables. I don't remember if the AWG is 22 or 24.

The point of all this is check the cable connectors for damage. You may still be able to use that in-wall cable.

If you have to replace the cable, remember there are only two types of HDMI cables - standard speed and high speed. High speed covers all of the current and planned HDMI bitrates. Standard speed is somewhat less bandwidth (how much less depends upon the cable). The maximum length of a passive high speed cable is 25'. To go longer you either need to use a standard speed passive HDMI cable, an active high speed HDMI cable or convert to cat 6.
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post #14 of 16 Old 12-18-2012, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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- My in-wall cable can handle 1080p60 output from my HTPC without issue.

- I certainly do have 1080p SBS content in the form of BR Rips converted using DVDFab. These playback from my HTPC without issue, either output as 720p60 or 1080p60 (XBMC, internal player). The Panasonic also outputs 1080p SBS from 1080p Blu-Ray if set to do so (my current work-around).

- In regards to the cable, it is surely possible that there is some hidden damage. I only have visual access to the connectors and 3-5' at each end. The connectors do have some play caused by the weight of the cable over time. That said, the ONLY use case where I see failure is 3D 1080p Frame Packed, and on two different players (Sony S570 and Panasonic BDT220). The same two players work correctly over a 6' Dynex cable I bought at Best Buy for testing.

- Right now I'm weighing two alternatives... replacing the cable (likely a 50' Monoprice RedMere Slim Series [active high speed]) or live with 1080p SBS from the Panasonic player. The latter cures another issue, the loss of lossless audio codecs due to my Onkyo NR1007 only being HDMI 1.3, but there is obviously a loss of resolution... so far my limited testing tells me the 1080p SBS output of the Panasonic is very good, but I do see some jagged edges on text. Replacing the cable will be substantially more work, cost about the same as the Panasonic player, and leave me without lossless audio and requiring use of an HDMI switch.

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post #15 of 16 Old 12-18-2012, 11:37 AM
 
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There is no reason that Blu-Ray cannot send a 1080p/60 SbS 3D image since it is the exact same bandwidth as the 2D version. However, I'm not sure if a display device would automatically recognize that as a 3D format.

Again, if your cable can handle 1080p/60 from your HTPC then 1080p/24 3D frame packed video is less bandwidth and should work as well, assuming the same source device. Make sure anything resembling deep color is disabled. That will also greatly reduce bandwidth and deep color serves no useful purpose (your TV will do a better job of adding color).

I don't see how replacing the cable would cause you to lose lossless audio since you could always go back to SbS at any time. I think an Oppo (or equivalent) BD player with two independent HDMI outputs would solve your problem.
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post #16 of 16 Old 12-18-2012, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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- I will definitely try disabling Deep Color / etc... I'm not sure if it is enabled but I hadn't thought to change it or that it would be related.

- This display does not automatically recognize ANY 3D format... you have to manually enable 3D and define the source type (Frame Packed, SBS, T/B, Frame Sequential) every single time and disable it when you're done... even for Frame Packed from a 3D Blu-Ray player. It's an annoyance but one of the sacrifices you make at this price point.

- If I do not replace the cable I will stick with 1080p SBS out from the Panasonic. With this output I can (and must, see the last part of post #12) continue running HDMI through my HDMI 1.3 AVR. If I replace the cable and use Frame Packed 3D output I will be forced to bypass my HDMI 1.3 AVR for video and use SPDIF/TOSLINK for audio. Like you say, if I replace the cable I could still revert to SBS at any time to retain lossless audio, but I can do that with the existing cable.

- Indeed a dual-HDMI BD player would allow for both Frame Packed 3D and lossless audio, but I'm not convinced lossless audio codecs are worth much of a premium, surely not the cost of an Oppo, Panasonic BDT500, or similar. Replacing my Sony S570 with a refurbished Panasonic BDT220 from CowBoom will only cost me $60, maybe less if I can sell the Sony. Replacing the Sony with an Oppo or Panasonic BDT500 would cost significantly more ($500 and $320 respectively). Even an older player like the BDT310 would cost $140 for a used one and offer a far inferior experience in terms of streaming content (a secondary function of the BD player). Unfortunately they dropped dual-HDMI output from the BDT320 and I'm not in-love with the design anyway. Even with Dual HDMI output, I still need to incorporate an HDMI switch into the mix.

- I want to get this all working and as elegantly/seamlessly/completely as possible. That said, Blu-Ray discs make up 1% or less of my total viewing. The bulk of our movie viewing and much of our TV viewing come from XBMC on the HTPC, either stored locally/network or streamed through various Add-Ons. Of that 1% that represents BD disc usage, I see much of that being 3D with 2D content still coming from XBMC the bulk of the time. In the grand scheme, BD playback (both 2D and 3D) will continue to be used EXTREMELY sparingly. This is why SBS from a Panasonic player may well be a perfectly passable solution.

- Monoprice, being the customer service kings that they are, have agreed to replace my 6.5 year old 50' 24AWG cable with a 50' High Speed Slim Series with RedMere Active cable at no charge. It took an hour on the live chat and 3-layers of customer service reps, but they finally agreed... I just kept pushing and figured I would quit once they said "we will not do that" instead of just "our system won't allow us to do that"... I was surprised when the third CS/RMA supervisor agreed, but I guess sometimes persistence pays off. That said, finding the time and justifying the effort to run the new cable in place of the old one is not a given just yet... at least now I know the practical limitation in my particular situation and I have at least a few options to consider.

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