Sony shows new 3D camcorder at CES. hDR TD30 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 191 Old 06-19-2013, 07:24 PM
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I did a bunch of research before I bought my TD20 .... I could find no differences between it and the TD30 ... I suggest you see if there's any TD30 test footage on youtube ...
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post #92 of 191 Old 06-20-2013, 03:26 AM
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I'm glad i'm not the only one who found no difference with the two models. In my view the TD30 should have been given a TD21 model number as it's just too much the same, or even call it a TD19 as there's features missing.

Can anyone confirm any differences in picture quality between the two models?

Youtube video is not a good way to judge picture sharpness as most stuff even 1080 is too compressed on youtube
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post #93 of 191 Old 07-19-2013, 02:41 PM
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I'm very disapointed with my TD20 only to find out that the 3D format is directly incompatible with 3D blu-ray.
I'm in PAL land and my TD20 shoots 3D at 50i

But i went to burn my finished video onto BD only to find the only 3D 1080 option was 24p, this means a frame is dropped every second, my resultant video looks jerky during pans and movement.

Is there a way of archiving this 50i 3D format onto BD and still be able to play it on 3D blu-ray players at full 1080 ?

If Sony invented BD recordable (i think they did) then why make their camcorders incompatible?

how do you guys get round this?
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post #94 of 191 Old 07-20-2013, 11:01 AM
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Sure - there are ways to overcome that:

  1. Use an AVCHD 2.0 capable 3D-Blu-ray player, and a software that supports that (for example Edius 6.5). That allows you to generate Blu-rays with 1080 50i too
  2. Convert the footage to 720 50p - you will not loose much quality realy, since the interline flicker in 1080 50i reduces the line-resolution in every case (so 1080 50i and 720 50p have a similar quality). And author the 3D-BD with 720 50p
  3. Edit the footage in 1080 50i, and stretch it to 1080 24p and author that for 3D-BD.

Be awar for 1) you may need Edius, for 2) and 3) you may need Vegas. Edius is not able to do 2) and 3), and Vegas is not able to perform 1).

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post #95 of 191 Old 07-20-2013, 12:07 PM
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this sounds all very complicated and yet more expense to buy these extra programs not to mention learning how to use them.
I have only just got used to using Cyberlink power director 10 which is 3D intended but only burns 3D 1080 @24p

I want full 1080 3D on BD as i'm watching them on a 120" screen and i want my finished BD's to be fully compatible with all current and future 3D blu-ray players, i'm somehow thinking that avchd bd's won't play in many players?

Any ideas why Sony created their 3D camcorders to be not directly compatible to transfer to BD as a standard BD video?
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post #96 of 191 Old 07-20-2013, 12:27 PM
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AVCHD 2.0/3D will play in AVCHD 2.0/3D compatible players only. That are the models of both Sony and Panasonic for the last 1 1/2 years maybe.

The PD should be able to create 720 50p discs too - they have incorported that feature. I think the conversion to 1080 24p can be done with the PD too, by using the playback settings of 0.9xxx - but I do not know that for sure.

The industry seems to sell 1080 24p for s3D camceras for the more professional versions of their cameras only. In other words - that is available but more expensive. You could also ask why the Blu-ray consortia has not included 1080 50i/60i in the specification of the Blu-ray - but that will not help you really.

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post #97 of 191 Old 07-20-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin68 View Post

this sounds all very complicated and yet more expense to buy these extra programs not to mention learning how to use them.
I have only just got used to using Cyberlink power director 10 which is 3D intended but only burns 3D 1080 @24p

I want full 1080 3D on BD as i'm watching them on a 120" screen and i want my finished BD's to be fully compatible with all current and future 3D blu-ray players, i'm somehow thinking that avchd bd's won't play in many players?

Any ideas why Sony created their 3D camcorders to be not directly compatible to transfer to BD as a standard BD video?

If you go through the 3D threads from the past couple of years, you'll see that this is a problem we've all wrestled with since these camcorders were introduced. I've had issues with the AVCHD 2.0 players, too. Even if you're willing to live with your videos not being able to play on older Blu-ray 3D players, you still might not be able to get them to play even in players that support the new "standard." I believe it was short-sighted of the manufacturers to create this level of incompatibility between the original Blu-ray 3D standard and the first generation of consumer-level 3D camcorders. That's why I shoot almost exclusively at 24p these days (with the JVC HMZ1 and Panasonic Z10000). 3D shot at 24p is not without its issues, but it's less problematic than 60i and 50i when you want to edit and author to Blu-ray.

The best thing you can do if you have to convert from 50i or 60i to 24p is slow down. Slow down your pans and tilts, and try to avoid fast action. Some shooters recommend cutting all your normal movement in half when shooting 3D. If you can't slow down, the only real solution is to convert to 720p. You lose spatial resolution, but the motion remains smooth.

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post #98 of 191 Old 07-21-2013, 12:48 AM
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To "slow down" is especially possible for PAL users, and is what I have suggested also. To go from 25 fps (50i) to 24 fps is possibel, and a slow down of the famous ~4% (but must take place with the exact figure!). But sure, that is a more complicated step.

I also tend to shoot in 24p using my Z10000, but with my TD10 I shoot in 50i. I tend to go to 720 50p, since I understand that this will not reduce the line resolution dramatically - but I have also published how to do that in Vegas for 50i footage. Unfortunately in German only. http://www.videoaktiv.de/201111046569/Artikel/CAMCORDER/Schau-mir-in-die-Augen.html

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post #99 of 191 Old 07-21-2013, 02:49 AM
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I have burnt a 720 50p 3D BD using Power director, but for some reason the real 3D effect is lost and my projector reverts to 2D to 3D conversion mode which i can do with any 2D film.
I have also looked into making an avchd disc, but the only options i have for 3D is side by side or Anaglyf, and then only for DVD discs

Could it be that Power director has these limitations or is this a fact on all programs?

Do you think that Sony might create their next camcorder geneation to shoot in 48i or 24p ? I really don't understand why we are still using 50 and 60i frame rates anyway, these were from the analog days, I guess it's to make us consumers keep having to upgrade if they don't bring out the ultimate straight away.
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post #100 of 191 Old 07-21-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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martin68-
I work in 60i world and can only offer that 60i video I have imported into Power Director for 3D BD creation works fine as long as the 60i video is fine.

I do shoot both 60i and 24p video and have no problems mixing these formats in a Vegas Pro timeline. When Vegas first came out it had some issues of stuttering, especially on horizontal movement on screen, both subject and camera but I find today's version trouble free. I edit all my original work in Vegas and when I want to burn a finished BluRay I output from Vegas and put the single long clip in Power Director to create the 1080 24p.

I've worked projects with mix of 60i, 60p, 24p, but never 50i original video.


I speak with Sony engineers often, both in the consumer division, the broadcast division and the Creative software ( Vegas) division. My assessment is that 24p will not be offered in a consumer camcorder. The reason is based on the concept that consumers typically have no interest in complex editing and burning disks. Therefore the consumer line of camcorders will be developed to offer the lowest cost system that can play the video from the camcorder. These camcorders have some basic built in presentation editors that many consumers use. Software such as Play Memories etc will continue to evolve for the consumer. When it comes to complex editing with fancy titles and menu structures, shooting in Blu Ray standards, Sony has all the tools too but at the professional and broadcast level. It is unfortunate that our small group of "prosumers" and serious amateurs do not have low cost tools to approach industry standard look but that is just what we have to deal with today. We've come a long way in the 20 years I have been in the business. In 1992, I spent over $250,000 just to shoot and edit video for local TV. If the market is there we may see more professional features in 3D someday but for now we have to deal with the limitations or spend the money for the right tools. I think we have more advantages in the world of 60i than the pal world does with 50i but only because I keep hearing stories like yours. Today, I do have procedures that produce satisfactory quality on 3D BD for the 60i world using two tools, Vegas Pro for basic editing and Power Director for making menu based 3D BD with DTS 5.1 sound. My process has been posted in these threads on Vegas Pro.
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post #101 of 191 Old 07-25-2013, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Sure - there are ways to overcome that:

  1. Use an AVCHD 2.0 capable 3D-Blu-ray player, and a software that supports that (for example Edius 6.5). That allows you to generate Blu-rays with 1080 50i too
  2. Convert the footage to 720 50p - you will not loose much quality realy, since the interline flicker in 1080 50i reduces the line-resolution in every case (so 1080 50i and 720 50p have a similar quality). And author the 3D-BD with 720 50p
  3. Edit the footage in 1080 50i, and stretch it to 1080 24p and author that for 3D-BD.

Be awar for 1) you may need Edius, for 2) and 3) you may need Vegas. Edius is not able to do 2) and 3), and Vegas is not able to perform 1).

There is another option 4) which is to convert the full frame 60i-3D to HSBS 60i-3D. This retains the smoother 60i field rate and 1080 vertical resolution but cuts the horizontal resolution. The resulting video can be played with all 2D HD video players. The TV set is set to SBS mode and converts the image to 3D at the final step. The Sony TD10 camcorder does this when connected via HDMI to any 3D TV set that cannot display AVCHD 2.0 60i-3D.

Another editor option for home 3D files is Pinnacle Studio 16 Plus or Ultimate. Information has it that this one does (1) and (4) and allows menus for (4).

Question: Why does my 3D camcorder make 60i 3D ?
Answer: 60i is smoother to watch, more like television than film. Almost all home camcorders are 60i, and local TV news is 60i.
Make that 50i in countries that use that standard.

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post #102 of 191 Old 07-25-2013, 10:36 AM
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so if "smooth" is what people want by them giving us 50/60 fps, then surely 48fps is still just as smooth and much more compatible to down convert to 24p to burn to blu-ray

So for 3D camcorders, why don't Sony simply give us 48i ?
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post #103 of 191 Old 07-25-2013, 11:18 AM
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Most displays wouldn't know what to do with 48i. There are even some compatibility issues with 60i 3D. My first Samsung plasma played 60i 3D from my TD1 without a problem, but my newer model can't seem to get the color right with the same footage.

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post #104 of 191 Old 07-25-2013, 12:24 PM
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side-by-side half is NO option for me - since we drop here 50% of the quality! Sure, that can be authored with every 2D authoring software. But we got Vegas with an MVC encoder - and that is fine for me.

To use mulistreams is fine too - but only if one has an AVCHD 2.0/3D capable BD-Player. What is still an issue for distribution of s3D.

That is the reason why I stick to Vegas and MVC based 3D-BDs!

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post #105 of 191 Old 07-30-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

side-by-side half is NO option for me - since we drop here 50% of the quality! Sure, that can be authored with every 2D authoring software. But we got Vegas with an MVC encoder - and that is fine for me.

To use mulistreams is fine too - but only if one has an AVCHD 2.0/3D capable BD-Player. What is still an issue for distribution of s3D.

That is the reason why I stick to Vegas and MVC based 3D-BDs!

The 50% loss of quality is a good estimate. Although the quality is lower, there are other factors.

For example I sent my "son in law" a file clip of his wedding in 3D in three forms including the following:
  1. Original 1080i60 AVCHD2.0-3D M2TS
  2. Vegas 12 encoded 1080p24-3D in iso form
  3. Dvdfab produced 1080p24-HSBS-3D in mkv form

He has the ability to play each of these, but chose (3) because it was easiest.

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post #106 of 191 Old 08-02-2013, 02:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Richard- I would think sending a 3D BD from the iso file via snail mail would be the easiest for an edited video. For most people being able to handle a "DVD" like a rented movie would be the easiest. How does he view #3 easier than a 3D BD?

FWIW- I have a couple family members too who can view 3D and find the burned disk BD-R is the easiest. One family has an AppleTV box with their Vizio 3DTV and I showed them how to view 3D on youtube with that setup but they still prefer the disk. The latest YT app on vizio TV's now does 3D so no AppleTV box needed.
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post #107 of 191 Old 08-02-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

How does he view #3 (HSBS file) easier than a 3D BD?

This was a test clip of 30 seconds. Most of son-in-law's use of 3D is for PS3 games. He already has a media PC hooked up to his TV, so using the routine VLC for the HSBS file and with the TV set to SBS mode let them watch the 3D clip in 3D instantly, without installing, burning, configuring or buying anything yet. There was a lot of rendering to make the HSBS clip.

Right now the best solution, to instantly select from expanding volumes of unedited family videos, could be the Mede8er RTD1186 based player that purportedly will play 3D files from the TD10 camcorder without rendering. I just ordered one to see if I can make it do that job.

Don and I have older versions of the RTD1186 based media players that play rendered 3D isos from our camcorders just fine, though without any menus.

Thanks to a tip from "slaver42" I've tracked down that the SDK for these RTD1186 players has in fact been updated to directly play 3D camcorder 1080i60 MVC files in 3D mode without rendering to a bluray standard. I see that this was the case for Mede8er 3D players since the release of their version 1.0.5 about 7 months ago. Here is a link that identifies the existence of the new SDK. Brief explanation is that the SDK is written by the Realtek RTD1186 chip maker, and it controls the core features of which types of 3D files all of the vendors who use the RTD1186 can play back. http://www.mede8erforum.com/index.php/topic,9714.msg61100.html#msg61100.

For further information from Mede8er, scroll down to number (8) at this link http://www.mede8erforum.com/index.php/topic,9743.msg61258.html#msg61258

Where Mede8er refers to "AVCHD Lite" for playback, all they are really saying is that they can play back in two modes, that comply with the bluray standard, which are 720p60-3D and 1080p24-3D. I speculate that they are converting all 1080i60-3D to 720p603D for playback, which is ultimately very compatible with 3DTVs that play bluray, and this is really what they mean by AVCHD Lite. That speculation is based on the following observation by a Mede8er user.. http://www.mede8erforum.com/index.php/topic,9739.msg61270.html#msg61270

It looks like HiMedia and Micca have dropped the ball and never incorporated this new SDK in their firmware, but Mede8er did. Not a happy thing for Micca and Himedia owners.

It was over a year between when I slapped RealTek with the fact that their SDK didn't support camcorder files before they came out with the new SDK, but at least they eventually did. I never heard that Oppo updated their firmware for the camcorder 3D. They too would need an upgrade of the SDK, but from Marvel instead.

I wonder if I can cross burn the 1.0.5 into a different brand player. I seem to recall that the Mede8er has a larger memory than the HiMedia and Micca, so maybe not a good idea. There is also a newer Mede8er firmware version 2.0.0, but I doubt if that one will cross burn since the boot loader was updated, and it is the boot loader that contains data tables that are unique aspect of each RTD1186 vendor's product. In any case, with the emergency mode, the original firmware can be restored since the emergency mode recovery is hard coded.

Occasionally I post a tangential response such as this one, but I know this subject is of interest.

It may turn out that "slaver42" has helped to uncover the Holy Grail of 3D camcorder enthusiasts, and that some people will spend a quite a while to ponder and decipher all that I wrote in this post. Take your time. You've been waiting over 2 years for this one. biggrin.gif

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post #108 of 191 Old 08-03-2013, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Richard- Thanks for your "tangential response." It's good for me to keep up on what's happening.

I don't use the Himedia in my HT these days. It has found a home here in the edit suite as a player for rendered ISO files from Vegas. I use the OPPO to play those same ISO files from Vegas of my finished productions, including ISO files of 3D productions with structured menus from Power Director which the HiMedia is not capable of doing. These low cost players will never be menu capable as the OPPO does due to the licensing restrictions. OPPO stuck their neck out and got smacked for it and had to reverse their capability in subsequent firmware updates. I simply pulled the plug to the internet on my OPPO and have never updated so my OPPO plays everything. What it can't do is other internet related BluRay stuff like Vudu, Netflix and java updates. But, I have other players in the HT for that if desired. My OPPO today has a bank of 6 2TB USB drives with all my edited videos. The OPPO supports multiple USB drives in a hub so it is easy to select what I want. I can also use it for 2D productions too. The OPPO does not support GUI selection with picture icons like the HiMedia does. It is just a list of file names so I have to be descriptive in the file names and then use folder names to group productions.

What the OPPO can't do is play the raw camcorder MVC files in original form. But, I have never had a desire to watch my raw video for entertainment purpose in the HT. Only rare times have I done that when showing others something just shot and then it is much easier to plug in the camcorder HDMI cable to the AVR. The way I shoot is more like pros do than consumers. Normally, I shoot with "slate" info either at the heads or tails of the clip for cataloging purposes for the edit session which would not be entertaining, but rather annoying to casual viewers. Plus I often shoot a scene many different ways in a clip. I may shoot a pan of landscape 7 times at different speeds and directions. Who would be entertained by that style? smile.gif
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post #109 of 191 Old 09-07-2013, 03:33 PM
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Hi folks, I've just bitten the bullet and got a Sony TD30. I have been a 3D enthusiast for about as long as I can remember (viewmaster lol) and got my Optoma HD33 3d projector two years ago. My first 3d cam was the Aiptek then a Sony Bloggie 3d. like everyone else here I am striving for better quality. Experimenting with my Samsung 3d Blu-ray playing AVCHD 2 was a non starter. Side by side on normal AVCHD works on the Samsung and my WDTV player but is little better than the Bloggie. I dont know what my next step should be. It looks like I have a choice between a Blu-ray burner or a 3D media player. The burner looks an idea but as far as I can see it'll skip frames making it jerk if I burn to 24p - the media player not too sure because I like my WDTV streaming player. Is Power director 11 good enought quality (mind I have a 120" screen) or would Sony movie studio give better results? I am flying to Florida in two weeks and hope to get some good footage and would welcome some expert advice ;0) Wolfgang mentioned slowing down the footage (1080 50i PAL to 24p) has anyone done this or any advice on how too do it? Thanks
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post #110 of 191 Old 09-08-2013, 11:41 PM
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There is some discussion about formats and specifically Sony MovieStudio Platinum 12 that might be of some help here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1355443/3d-mts-files-from-a-sony-hdr-td10/240#post_23705936
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post #111 of 191 Old 09-12-2013, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by guitarman512 View Post

Wolfgang mentioned slowing down the footage (1080 50i PAL to 24p) has anyone done this or any advice on how too do it? Thanks

Sure, I have done so and have also written a report about that. Unfortunately, it is in German and was published in the Videoaktiv digtial.

But the basics are (in Vegas):
- render your 1080 50i footage to 1080 50p for L and R
- pair the streams again
- stretch the stream. A good way is to have a look how many absolut frames the stream are. Then you change the projekt properties in Vegas to 23,976 fps - and stretch the footage to the same number of absolut frames that you had before.
- do the same for audio (using pitch shifting)
- render the footage to 1080 24p

If everything is done in a correct way, now recalculation of the frames will take place.

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post #112 of 191 Old 09-13-2013, 12:20 PM
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Thanks Guys, I tried a couple of test burns with my PC to m2ts side by side 1080 50i and I was well impressed with the picture quality - even the render time on PD 11 for a 4min test shoot with half a dozen dissolves only took about 40 min, I might try downloding the vegas trial after my Florida holiday as the only fault I found with the file was playing on my Optoma projector I had to tune my emiter for the 3d glasses as most stuff - Blu-ray and my other camcorders are in 24P or 60i. I will probably get a new 3D media player and a Blu-ray burner anyway as it will be good to back up as well.
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post #113 of 191 Old 10-09-2013, 05:13 AM
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Hi Guys, Back from Florida with about 5 hours of 3d video from my TD30.(even after losing a 16bg Sandisk pro SD card)I plugged into my passive 55" toshiba and picture quality is great. Only problem seems to be when I press the stop record button the camera still records for about half a second or so. Now most clips I've recorded have a whip pan effect at the end - more editing required now. Anyone else find they have similar problems?
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post #114 of 191 Old 10-09-2013, 08:01 AM
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It's normal. You just need to account for it while you're shooting and hold the camera steady a bit longer.
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post #115 of 191 Old 10-10-2013, 04:54 AM
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Ok 35min of Disney studios edited set to burn onto Blu-ray 3d with PD11 - 15 hours later it tells me 70 hours to go. I think an upgrade is required somewhere. I'll try another hard drive first. Its win 7 32bit so I've got the max 4gb I can use. thinking the prossesor 3ghz core duo may be a problem too. If I put another drive in what is the best way to set up assets, temp and produced file folders if anyone can help please ;0)
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post #116 of 191 Old 10-10-2013, 12:09 PM
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3D is very demanding on a computer. I have a 6-core processor, 16GB RAM, Win 7 64-bit, and use SSD's instead of hard drives. Upgrading your system will probably be necessary if you plan to do much 3D editing. Sounds like you have several bottlenecks in your computer.
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post #117 of 191 Old 10-10-2013, 01:49 PM
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Yeah looks like I've got a bit of upgrading to do - I think best bet for now is a medi8r box if that'll play 1080 50i 3d I dont have to render all the frames to 720 50p. That should do me for just now. Thanks Joe
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post #118 of 191 Old 10-12-2013, 01:06 AM
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Well, I use an i7 2600K overclocked to something like 4.2 Ghz 16 GB Ram - and supported by a nvidia GTX570 for CUDA. In Veags Pro 12 that is a nice system to edit nativ TD10 footage.

I think you will need an new PC for s3D editing. Maybe a solution could be a software that uses proxy files, but the rendering of the proxy files will take also a long time.

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post #119 of 191 Old 10-12-2013, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Sure, I have done so and have also written a report about that. Unfortunately, it is in German and was published in the Videoaktiv digtial.

But the basics are (in Vegas):
- render your 1080 50i footage to 1080 50p for L and R
- pair the streams again
- stretch the stream. A good way is to have a look how many absolut frames the stream are. Then you change the projekt properties in Vegas to 23,976 fps - and stretch the footage to the same number of absolut frames that you had before.
- do the same for audio (using pitch shifting)
- render the footage to 1080 24p

If everything is done in a correct way, now recalculation of the frames will take place.

This is all too complicated for a 3D novice who simply just wants to burn camcorder footage onto BD. To me there is a massive incompatibility error that Sony made between their 3D camcorders and the 3D blu-ray specification, and a blind eye to the consumers who buy a 1080 50/60i 3D with lack of an easy way to get the footage stored onto BD in original quality.

I know a lot of you go for the hard disc media player option, but for many of us this totally restricts the freedom of movement between rooms and houses when it comes to wanting to watch your finished video else where, not to mention, theres something special about having the finished video in a physical form, with a nice printed disc and cover!

I just sold my TD20 for the above reasons. the video was only good when played from the camcorder direct, as soon as it's put onto BD there is a MASSIVE compromise in quality.
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post #120 of 191 Old 10-12-2013, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin68 View Post

This is all too complicated for a 3D novice who simply just wants to burn camcorder footage onto BD. To me there is a massive incompatibility error that Sony made between their 3D camcorders and the 3D blu-ray specification, and a blind eye to the consumers who buy a 1080 50/60i 3D with lack of an easy way to get the footage stored onto BD in original quality.

I know a lot of you go for the hard disc media player option, but for many of us this totally restricts the freedom of movement between rooms and houses when it comes to wanting to watch your finished video else where, not to mention, theres something special about having the finished video in a physical form, with a nice printed disc and cover!

I just sold my TD20 for the above reasons. the video was only good when played from the camcorder direct, as soon as it's put onto BD there is a MASSIVE compromise in quality.

I agree with all this, except I don't think it's a compatibility "error." I think it's deliberate that they've made it next to impossible to maintain the original quality. It's been two years since these camcorders were first released. It should be easy by now to transfer our 60i footage to disc and play it back without image degradation on a compatible player. It's not. If anyone wonders why 3D has not been the runaway success some predicted, it's partly because of blunders like this. It's hard to imagine how the introduction of digital 3D to consumers could have been bungled more profoundly than it was. But that's just my angry opinion. biggrin.gif

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