Sony shows new 3D camcorder at CES. hDR TD30 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 191 Old 01-08-2013, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony showed the latest upgrade to the original HDR TD10. The TD30

Last year Sony surprised everyone with a smaller full featured 3D camcorder, the TD20. This year's TD30 looks about the same, with better quality imaging ( 20.4 m pixels) and even better image stabilization. The price was lowered at MSRP $999. The way they achieved the cheaper price was to eliminate the internal memory and you supply your own SD card for recording. I did check out a few features and these seem to remain the same, such as only one 3D recording mode, 1080 60i. No 1080 24p or 1080 60p. These two modes are only available in the 2D function of the camera.

One other interesting deletion from the TD 10 and (correct me if I am wrong here) also the TD 20, is the manual adjust knob. All settings are from menu or touch screen on the TD 30. As I recall, the TD 20 had a manual knob and it was upgraded from the TD 10 with one more feature, but I don't recall which. Now the knob is gone altogether.

There were no professional 3D cameras shown at CES. those will be shown at NAB in April.

I shot some video of the TD30 and will upload that when I get home next week.

As I learn more, I will post here.
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post #2 of 191 Old 01-08-2013, 09:31 PM
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http://www.camcorderinfo.com/News/Sony-Announces-TD30V-3D-Camcorder-Priced-Under-1-000.htm?utm_source=outbrain_recirc&obref=obinsite
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post #3 of 191 Old 01-08-2013, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 191 Old 01-08-2013, 11:30 PM
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Thanks for the info.
I don't mind missing the internal memory, because i can copy that very slow to my PC
compared with class10 sdhc cards. Memory cards are cheap nowadays.

But i wonder still:
no manual settings in 3D mode? like ae shift, white balance..
no 24p in 3D for bluray?
no more than 28mbit recording? not enough for waterfalls, etc.
no filter ring?
no 3D photo?

Then it's just a "TD21"..
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post #5 of 191 Old 01-09-2013, 10:28 AM
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Did the hd20 have a filter ring?
Reminds me of when Sony replaced the hdv camcorder HC1 with the HC3. The HC 3 had slightly better sensor, but dropped features from the HC1, Sony said it was "better".
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post #6 of 191 Old 01-09-2013, 10:34 AM
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You mean TD20?

This would be also an improvement.
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post #7 of 191 Old 01-11-2013, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Learned today that the new TD30 is made of recycled materials for the housing. The rep said there was no cost advantage of doing this. It was done, mainly as a way to demonstrate they could do it and hopefully win over some Green enthusiasts.
Ill post a picture of this recycled display info next week when I get back in town.
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post #8 of 191 Old 01-12-2013, 09:58 AM
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While you are at, could you post a comparo of the different 3d glass free demos in the 3d display forum?
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post #9 of 191 Old 01-12-2013, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I have not been able to achieve any success shooting 3-D of any of the glasses free 3-D TV sets.

But I will post some pictures in 2-D In the 3-D displays forum next week. I'm still traveling and have no way to upload video and pictures at this time.
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post #10 of 191 Old 01-12-2013, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I have not been able to achieve any success shooting 3-D of any of the glasses free 3-D TV sets.

But I will post some pictures in 2-D In the 3-D displays forum next week. I'm still traveling and have no way to upload video and pictures at this time.

No need to shoot pics, just look and report back what you think of them, which look better than others, etc.
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post #11 of 191 Old 01-12-2013, 01:03 PM
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Don, Any notable new still/movie 3D cameras, ala the Panasonic 3D1 show up this year?
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post #12 of 191 Old 01-12-2013, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Only thing I saw other than the Sony TD30 is a new 3D lens from Samsung.

This lens is pretty slick. It fits on their NX300 DSLR . Inside it has two individual lenses with an IA said to be 15mm by the Samsung rep. I does a pretty good job of 3D out to about 15 ft or so. Beyond that, as expected, the scene goes flat. They had a live video demoing running.

While many of you would turn your nose at this due to the IA, I see the potential for a photographer who just may want to capture a 3D version of his shot and can quickly swap to his 3D lens. The camera. Body produces a sidebyside exposure for left and right eye image. You would need to pair the images in software I guess. the Rep didn't think the camera had a 3D output in frame pack but we need to check specs. He really didn't seem to know too much about that end of the technology.

There is a review of this lens and this person seems to think the camera has to process the 3D, so maybe it does pair the two images in camera.

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/Features/Optional-Dimension-Hands-On-With-Samsung-s-2D-3D-NX-Lens.htm
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post #13 of 191 Old 01-15-2013, 04:44 AM
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I have been watching all these cameras like a hawk and let me tell you. The TD20 and 30 are marketing junk. They are a step down in quality and without the manual 3D parallax ring you can't get really good "pop out in your face effects" and most everything goes in depth or behind the screen. The td20 and td30 also are way smaller and the lenses closer together while the td10's lenses more mimic real eye space.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO7P8SOf3dE&hd=1

shot on sony hdr-td10 and also HXR-NX3D1 and I can tell you the hxr-nx3d1 shows NO imrpovement... and is about 1500 more.

Also, you CAN make 24p 3D-blu-rays that play fine in all 3D-blu-ray players and usually will play in 2D in a regular blu-ray player, you must have Sony Vegas 12 for this to work properly.

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post #14 of 191 Old 01-15-2013, 06:16 AM
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TD20 sharpness is better than TD10..
TD20 has manual know for parallax.
Are you sure TD30 touch screen cannot do this?

And why Vegas10 or 11 isn't good? redface.gif
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post #15 of 191 Old 01-15-2013, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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The td20 and td30 also are way smaller and the lenses closer together while the td10's lenses more mimic real eye space.

Not quite! The TD20 and 30 offer just a fraction closer interocular than the TD10. The TD10 is about half the I.O. of the average human. It's not a single number for interaxial distance that is important, but rather the PROPER interaxial distance to achieve the proper depth for the lens size and stage size of the shot.

With each newer version of the TD series camcorders, the state of the art of the imager has improved permitting higher quality recording. There is more than one factor in determining the overall quality of the shot. Its why serious photographers carry a variety of cameras to be able to select the best system for each shot. I shoot cameras with 18mm IA to 1000mm.

relaxman- FWIW- I have Vegas 12 but prefer 11 right now. I think 12 doesn't cooperate with my video card as well as 11 does. I do just fine with Vegas 11. Vegas 12 does offer some nice improvements, however. Its just not as stable on my hardware as 11.
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post #16 of 191 Old 01-25-2013, 03:13 PM
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I found just the opposite to be true. Vegas 11 crashed all the time and Vegas 12 actually makes it through a full 24p 3D blu-ray render for me.

Sorry if I am a little angry at sony - it is just that they themselves could easily make this technology work better as they have an edited 60p 3D clip right on the camera so obviously they have the software to do it... not this playmemory kaka workaround. They are the makers of blu-ray and they don't release a camera that shoots real 24p 3D? How ridiculous is that? Oh wait.. the outrageously over priced HXR-NX3D1 will do it so you have to spend $1500 more to get xlr and 24p - come on. It's the SAME camera I did not see ANY increase in sharpness.

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post #17 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 03:13 AM
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If you wish to shoot s3D in 1080 24p, well then you have to buy a camera that is cabalbe to shoot in 1080 24p. And EVERY company that offers that seems to price 1080 24p significantyl higher then 1080 50i/60i. That is the same for Panasonic, that is the same for JVC, and for sure the same for Sony. Sure you can ask if that is fair or not - but it is as it is. Love it or leave it.

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post #18 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackoutsBox View Post

I found just the opposite to be true. Vegas 11 crashed all the time and Vegas 12 actually makes it through a full 24p 3D blu-ray render for me.

Sorry if I am a little angry at sony - it is just that they themselves could easily make this technology work better as they have an edited 60p 3D clip right on the camera so obviously they have the software to do it... not this playmemory kaka workaround. They are the makers of blu-ray and they don't release a camera that shoots real 24p 3D? How ridiculous is that? Oh wait.. the outrageously over priced HXR-NX3D1 will do it so you have to spend $1500 more to get xlr and 24p - come on. It's the SAME camera I did not see ANY increase in sharpness.

I would so much rather have a display that could show the 1080p 30fps 3D these cameras produce (or 1080i 60). I don't think 24fps is fast enough for pans or other motion. Lets pester Sony and the other manufacturers to add this option to their displays instead of adding 24fps 3D to their cameras.
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post #19 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I think many (here) were disappointed in Sony's TD30 from a serious 3D video maker perspective. But we need to respect that Sony made this offering to expand the numbers of people who would like to shoot 3D of their home movies and easily show that on their 3D TV. They know this group wanted lower price and everything easy and automatic.

They had no intention in making an upgrade to the TD10 or 20 for the serious 3D stereographer or low end professional. Sony is one company that has a line of equipment that has a logical upgrade path for more professional tools. You may not like it that going from consumer to professional to industrial to Broadcast to EFP and ESP has an ever increasing price tag but that is just how it works on this planet.

Sure, I would have liked to see a Sony consumer product for the serious amateur, something similar to Panasonic's Z10k but I understand they may reserve such an offering for the NAB show as these higher end camcorders at higher pricing may not have appeal to the average consumer.

I understand that personal hobby budgets are greatly limited and most of us can't afford to just go out and spend $100,000 on a Red Epic and Roberts rig or similar EFP with all the bells and whistles. Believe me, I've been there in the 2D flat world of owning a field TV production company and it ain't cheap. Today, in retirement, I have a much smaller budget and must make do with consumer cameras.
But, what we CAN do with these consumer camcorders is produce some very creative content by making simple modifications and getting educated as to what will make the biggest impact on our videos. Like pairing two TD10's with variable IA and shooting in 24p and 60p, adding filters to the lens for enhanced contrast, learning how to turn on and use X.V. color option. Adding an XLR converter box for using professional microphones, light kits, remote wireless BT microphones to name a few.

Considering that the industry has done fine for many decades with 24 fps to tell stories, who are we newbies to the craft to say it doesn't work? If you get a little education and avoid doing things that offer little to no value in your story and work within the confines of your equipment you can achieve satisfactory outcome. Once you learn those confines, then you can begin to push the limits, start to think outside the box, to see what can add to your story without creating a distraction that ruins it. If you try to do this before learning the craft, you become frustrated and start blaming the experts for not knowing what they are doing.
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post #20 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 09:23 AM
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Using 1080 24p in the Z10K, I think that it is fine for most situations. The Z10K adds some blur to movement, what makes that acceptable for me. Sure, I would like to see a camera similar to the Z10K with 1080 50p/60p, but I am not sure if that is possible in terms of bandwidth given our hdmi interfaces.

The TD10, 20, 30 are consumer cameras, for the budget of consumers. Similar to Don I use two paired TD10s on a sbs rig too, but be aware that this is much more complicated compared with shooting with one single TD10. There is no one perfect camera for every sitatuation -for some projects sbs-rigs are great, for others the IO is too large and you can use a beam splitter rig or such a Walley like the TD10/Z10K. Up to your budget, upto your decision.

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post #21 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 09:53 AM
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The thing I noticed about the TD30 at CES was the fact you have to open the view finder to access your mic & headphone jacks... with the TD10 they in back and you can save battery by shutting it down between takes ...
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post #22 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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There is no one perfect camera for every situation

That's why I carry 5 cameras that are 3D capable with a variety of lenses and and filters on most of my projects. smile.gif

dfergie- Good point on the audio I/O. I saw that too but then again, most consumer shooters won't ever use the camcorder that way. In my case I can squeeze the two camcorders together for a 4" I.A. when shooting with two and still connect my other equipment, like sync cable remote mic mixer, headphones all from the back and out of the way.
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post #23 of 191 Old 01-26-2013, 09:59 PM
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I own both the TD-10 and TD-20.

The TD-20 definitely has better image quality and is better for close-ups, but medium distances that look great on the TD-10, look kind of flat on the TD-20 because of the slightly narrower lens distance. So yeah, it's a matter of choosing the right tool for the job.

The TD-20 is smaller and lighter, but not built as well as the TD-10. Mine just burned out after a weekend of heavy shooting and is currently at the Texas service center for warranty repair. The newest TD-30 looks to be even more delicate.

Now I'm eying the NX3D1 as a more robust solution.
I have been rendering the 3D 60i footage of the TD-10/20 to 3840x1080p24 3D.mp4 clips without any noticeable glitches, using Vegas Pro 10, but I'm wondering if recording in 24p3D would be any improvement in image quality?

Don, I also wanted to ask you if you've heard any rumors of an upgrade to NX3D1, or any other new pro 3D cameras being announced at NAB?

I notice that there is a $500 mail in rebate on the NX3D1 that runs until March 31st, just before the show.
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post #24 of 191 Old 01-27-2013, 02:18 AM
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... but I'm wondering if recording in 24p3D would be any improvement in image quality?

That is a significant improvement. It makes a difference if one shoots progressive, edit progressiv, and stays progressive when rendering to the final product.

If you shoot in 1080 50i/60i, you will loose some resolution due to interline flicker - both in a static picture, but also more significant in a video with more movement. Then you edit that in 1080 60i/50i. When you render that to 1080 24p, every frame has to be calculated new in Vegas - what is another significant loss in quality.

So if you have the choice, shoot in 1080 24p, edit with that project settings, and render to 1080 24p.

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post #25 of 191 Old 01-27-2013, 04:18 PM
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Took these at the Sony booth...
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post #26 of 191 Old 01-27-2013, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not in the loop to get rumors but I will be attending NAB. Saturday, I purchased my airline tickets and reserved the room.

On the TD30- Interesting your comment on construction quality. I also know that the new TD30 is made with recycled plastic from shredded CD's Sony had a display of it. I took a picture and will post that later. They had the TD30 broken down to various parts with a display on the recycle claim.

Also, on the NX3D1 you should know that it does not support 5.1 audio. Personally, I think for the money the Panasonic Z10K is a better deal. 3 chip, 5.1 audio 24p recording and 2CH pro audio too. It's a bit front heavy but seriously a better system, I think. Wolfgang has one so he's our resident expert on comparisons.
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post #27 of 191 Old 01-28-2013, 12:00 AM
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Well, I do not know the NX3D1 really - but at the end it seems to be the same camera like the TD10, but with some additional possibilities for 1080 24p or manual white balance. But the base is the TD10. Here I agree with Don - I would always take the Z10K before I take the NX3D1...

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post #28 of 191 Old 01-28-2013, 03:19 AM
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The NX3D1 is the EXACT same camera with an xlr box. Overpriced ripoff and sony knows it.

I'm not an amateur or hobbyist newb. I live off of acting / writing /DPing / drecting /editing and everything to do with the film world in NYC. What this companies do is cripple the low end cameras to try and keep the high ends selling when sometimes (many times there is NO DIFFERENCE) in quality or internal hardware. Look at the panasonic gh1 and gh2 hack. it produced videos better than the multi million dollar Sony Cine Altas and it was under $2000.

I am an expert on this pop out thing and I can tell you that there was an active decision by the blu-ray 3D standards group to move towards less pop out and more depth because pop out effects can cause headaches in some people if done to long or not done right. This is why imax 3D movies with those huge active shutter glasses were the best and usually stayed to under 45 minutes originally - at least the 3D ones.

Many many of these 3D titles were not shot in 3D and were converted and I wouldn't give a dollar to see them as they can't do 3D correctly because the information is not there from the second lens recording at a different angle.

I have talked to pro guys and been on the pro news groups and directors are encouraged to stay away from those effects which I think is ridiculous because it's one of the magical things that people bought a 3D tv for to be able to reach out for things like the shows at epcot or disney (but remember these shows are usually under 10 minutes.. terminator 2 3D ect....

That being said without a doubt the two biggest "pop out effect" blu-rays discs are #1 - Imax Under the Sea and #2 Journey To the Center of the Earth.. it all goes down hill after that with most of these cgi generated movies being very skimpy with bringing 3D out of the screen. You want some 30p with pop out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO7P8SOf3dE&hd=1

Check that out on your blu-ray enabled 3d projector or TV or even with cheapo red / cyan comic book 3d glasses

The best 3D blu-ray movies and films should POP and come out of the screen as well as go in. Unfortunately most of the current generation of flat screen lcd, led, and plasmas 3D TVs just don't do 3D very well to begin with and on top of that many blu-ray 3D titles are just converted 2D which looks lame. This shows off what proper full HD 3D should look like, with layers of depth BEHIND the screen, then the awesome POP OUT of the screen effects that everyone loves but most 3D TVs. blu-rays, and movies lack because of how the parallax optics were set. Viewed properly on a 3D tv with active shutter glasses (best choice) passive (2nd best) Evo 3D or Evo V (3rd best) or even colored red /cyan (4th best way to view) - this small clip should be fairly mind blowing and the straw and my cell phone should come out far from your screen while the people behind me should be behind the 'md level' of your screen.

Now, this is youtube mind you but, this was originally shot in 4K dual lens / dual chip systems. It is a combination of manufacturers so I am not going to go into full spec talk but the focus should be that THIS will show off what 3D should look like, with layers of depth BEHIND the screen, then the awesome POP OUT of the screen effects that everyone loves but most 3D TVs. blu-rays, and movies lack because of how the parallax optics were set. Viewed properly on a 3D tv with active shutter glasses - this small clip should be fairly mind blowing and the straw and my cell phone should come out several feet from your screen while the people behind me should be several feet behind. Mind you this is going to lose a lot from youtube compression and will most likely be down converted to 30p.. which is close enough to 24p so I am not going to bother uploading that one. I can do 24p 30p 48p ad 60p full 4K resolution or dual 2k.

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post #29 of 191 Old 01-28-2013, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackoutsBox View Post

I am an expert on this pop out thing and I can tell you that there was an active decision by the blu-ray 3D standards group to move towards less pop out and more depth because pop out effects can cause headaches in some people if done to long or not done right. This is why imax 3D movies with those huge active shutter glasses were the best and usually stayed to under 45 minutes originally - at least the 3D ones.

I agree that a negative parallaxis generated additional stereoscopic stress. But I do not think that the Blu ray consortia cares about pop-outs really. That is more a question of content and the adjustment of the disparity in the near-point, while the Blu-ray consortia cares about the formats and disc standards.

I for my part do not love pop outs really. Yes, we can go slightly in the range of negative disparities, but that has to be hanled carefully to stay in the low stress range. If one takes care to those and other rules, there is no reason why a s3d production cannot reach the range of 90 minutes or more.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
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post #30 of 191 Old 01-28-2013, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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For some, negative parallax is an ongoing fascination. I guess I would include myself in the same camp as Michael regarding what I find entertaining. Wolfgang et al, knows I have experimented for over a year on producing large landscape documentaries that include extreme ranges of negative to positive parallax even in the same shot. vis a vis Valley of Fire I understand it as a science to create and understand the math involved to execute. How I use the science is the art. It's not about a straw or cell phone in between the camera lenses. Anyway, artists have been creating positive and negative parallax since about the 1830's so there is nothing to invent here, just a process to learn and use in our craft.

But I am not an expert, nor one who earns a living doing 3D. I'm a student of the craft and at this stage of my life I make it a practice to not work professionally, but that is a business decision.

Wolfgang, I agree with you that the Blu Ray consortium has no interest in dictating to the artist how to compose his scene. I find that notion quite funny, actually. What is likely is that artists often come to an agreement as to what works and what doesn't to achieve certain results. What places the viewer in the comfort zone, where the safety is and where the risk is.


But as for movie popouts, Michael, have you seen the movie by Robert Rodriguez, Spy Kids: Game Over ? I recently added this title to my own library after being blown away by the quality of 3D and the entertaining story of this older movie from a rental. You would be entertained by the quality and abundance of negative parallax ( a.k.a. popouts ) He keeps the scenes short in time and doesn't violate the edges of the screen frame which make for a relaxing presentation with plenty of impressive images to fill your viewing room, objects that sit right in front of your nose you can reach out and try to touch.
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