Fuji W3 3D Camera - Poor 3d Images on TV - Crosstalk (major) - AVS Forum
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Everyone,

Loving my new 3d camera - the pictures on the rear LCD are great - but however I view the images on my Samsung 3d TV (USB, PS3 or direct HDMI) I get some major crosstalk making them unviewable.

Anyone got any thoughts? I assume its the camera since everything else 3d wise on the TV is ok.

Cheers

Mark
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:42 AM
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My opinion is that it isn't likely to be the camera, except if something is terribly wrong with the camera or connection. Common problem with "domestic" footage is that it is usually too deep, especially when compared to professional production (3D movies). In pro movies (made for large screens), the parallax between the cameras is usually not much more than 1% of the picture width, while it's recommended that home movies should not exaggerate with parallax as well (max. about 3%).

Moreover, the freshmen in 3D are usually taking videos/movies too close to the nearest object (let's say, the nearest object on the picture/video is closer than about 2.5m on Fuji W3). If adding some zoom, it becomes even worse. Professional production is also trying to avoid highly contrasty objects, especially if they are in the background or much closer than stereo window.

Please, check your footage first if the parallax is low enough (let's say less than about 1/30 of the screen width).
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:48 PM
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If you close one eye with the glasses on do you still see this crosstalk? If so then there is something wrong with the image recording or the display... but if the crosstalk goes away then it's just you are shooting too much paralax for your eyes to resolve as crunchy said.

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Old 02-17-2013, 12:31 AM
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Are you sure? As far as I know, the crosstalk is measured so as to close one of the glasses and see how much of the opposite picture "comes through". I think that there are no TVs which are perfect in this sense. Maybe in the last few years they improved, though. Several years ago I've bought my Panasonic plasma just because it was a way better than Samsung and Sony 3D TVs concerning crosstalk. However, I can still see crosstalk on "deep" contrasty scenes
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy3d View Post

Are you sure? As far as I know, the crosstalk is measured so as to close one of the glasses and see how much of the opposite picture "comes through". I think that there are no TVs which are perfect in this sense. Maybe in the last few years they improved, though. Several years ago I've bought my Panasonic plasma just because it was a way better than Samsung and Sony 3D TVs concerning crosstalk. However, I can still see crosstalk on "deep" contrasty scenes

I believe DLP are perfect in the crosstalk sense with proper glasses and technically crosstalk as a result of the display is something wrong with the display however since OP says oher 3D material exibits no crosstalk issues I have ot assume his display is good enough on the crosstalk that it will "go away" whne he closes one eye assuming his camera isn't doing something bad to the image.

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Old 02-18-2013, 06:32 PM
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have you tried stereophoto editor to try re-allign the photos?
Could be the tv too
I bought a 55" LG lcd 3d tv awhile back and the photos were horrible with ghosting to the point I did'nt want to view them. I took my sd card into the store where I bought the tv and tried it in the Panasonic plasma and the photos were perfect.
Neddless to say, I went home re-boxed the LG, took it back and swapped it for the panasonic.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:32 AM
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The Fuji tends to create photos with a significant offset of the right/left eye views. You can adjust the parallax in the camera. You should do that first and see if it helps. It should. A DLP display will not ghost (given the timing between the display and the glasses is correct), even when the left/right views are widely offset. All the LCD and plasma displays ghost, sometimes badly. You may not notice it with most commercial movies, but even there you will see it in some scenes of some titles.

First order of business, adjust the parallax manually on the Fuji. And as crunchy3D says, make sure the closest object is not too close, especially if you can see objects well into the distance. That's almost guaranteed to cause ghosting.

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Old 02-19-2013, 12:20 PM
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You don't notice the crosstalk as much on your W3 screen because the screen is so small.

Bigger screen = more screen parallax (on screen separation of the overlapping left and right eye images)
More parallax = increased chance of crosstalk.

Cheap camera sensor = worse dynamic range.
Worse dynamic range = more highs and lows and not as much mids. In other words, more contrasty and less life-like.
More contrast = increased chance of crosstalk.

Contrast or wide parallax alone won't necessarily guarantee crosstalk. It's the presence of BOTH in one area that will typically cause it. The reason Hollywood can have a high-contrast movies with strong depth without lots of crosstalk is because the cameras have a smoother dynamic range, fine control over lens spacing, the stereographers have a trained eye for how to compose a problem-free shot, and the post-production team know how to tweak the convergence and levels just the right amount.

Adjust the parallax wheel so that there is an equal amount of popout and depth. If it's all depth, like you're looking out a window, then it will increase the likelihood of crosstalk.

But even if you adjust the parallax just right, you're still going to have crosstalk in most content shot with a W3, because of the camera's wide lens spacing and average dynamic rage.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:07 AM
 
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A simple guide is that objects in the distance (e.g. at infinity) should have a parallax separation of no more than the width of your eyes--typically 2.5 inches. If it is larger than that, you might not be able to join the two images and ghosting or eyestrain happens. So display an outdoor scenic image that has objects between 10 feet and at least a hundred feet, and measure the distance between the farthest object left and right images. If it is greater than 2.5 inches, then adjust the separation of images in the camera before you take pics, or use an external program like Stereomaker after you take pics--I have to do this with my Fuji W3 pics since they show up with around 10 inches of separation on my large 159" screen. Another issue is the two images can get out of alignment through rough handling of the camera, and there is a 3D adjustment alignment feature to realign the 3D images in the camera. A good thing to do before taking any group of pictures. Also, try not to have objects closer than 6' feet from the camera, although I do take closeups once in a while and I make sure there is nothing beyond 3 feet in my line of sight, then I set the separation closer, and usually readjust the images in Stereomaker--the final image can be breathtaking, such as a closeup of a butterfly--I'll try to find a good pic, and post here.

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Old 02-26-2013, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

A simple guide is that objects in the distance (e.g. at infinity) should have a parallax separation of no more than the width of your eyes--typically 2.5 inches. If it is larger than that, you might not be able to join the two images and ghosting or eyestrain happens.

Yes, if the separation is larger than 2.5 inches than it's physically impossible to fuse the pictures (slight divergence of about 1 degree is possible, though). However, ghosting is already visible at smaller separations (it depends on the particular TV screen, though).
Moreover, separation of 2.5 inches on the average TV size might be too large for the average viewer. Even though the eyes are still converging or are in parallel, the average viewer cannot fuse such picture easily (depends on a distance to display as well) due to excessive depth. Personally, I can view really "impossible" 3D pictures (by the way, the above pictures have excessive parallax for background objects when viewed on larger screen). However, most of my colleagues are complaining that their eyes are hurting or that they cannot fuse the picture if the parallax is too high (even though the separation is less than 2.5 inches). I never received any complaints if the parallax was less than 1/30 of the screen width for many different screen sizes.

So, Lamaman1971, have you tried with pictures will smaller parallax? Maybe you can upload one of the "problematic" pictures, so we can see if parallax/contrast is OK?
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy3d View Post

Personally, I can view really "impossible" 3D pictures (by the way, the above pictures have excessive parallax for background objects when viewed on larger screen

Yup, these were meant for a 23" monitor or less. I have to adjust these for projection so they end up as popouts to keep the parallax in check.
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:51 PM
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As others have already mentioned, crosstalk is usually 3D display related and not caused by the camera (although there are exceptions).
The following technical paper (written by me) provides a background on the presence, causes, perception and reduction of crosstalk in stereoscopic 3D imaging systems - you may find it helpful:
Andrew J. Woods "Crosstalk in Stereoscopic Displays: a review" Journal of Electronic Imaging, 21(4), 040902 (December 05, 2012).
The paper is available open access here: http://electronicimaging.spiedigitallibrary.org/pdfaccess.ashx?ResourceID=4839553&PDFSource=21
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:43 AM
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Andrew- Thank you for that reference to your paper. It's one of the best technical articles, not just for "crosstalk" but for a complete review of the state of the art for stereographic technology I have seen in a long time. It's not a quick read but I have placed a copy on my desktop for complete study and reference.
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