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post #31 of 45 Old 07-08-2014, 07:06 AM
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What your company seems to copy is the Panasonic 3D1 style while adding the ability to get closer IA for close up shooting than what the Panasonic 3D1 is capably of doing without ghosting out on the very close objects in the shot.
According to their specifications, Cue should be the entirely different product offering much higher video quality than 3D1. It seems that Cue is more aimed at "prosumer" market - let's say 3D enthusiast - prosumer. :-)
Concerning video quality, I would expect it to be on a par with let's say Panasonic HDC-Z10000 camcorder. However, I might be wrong. Aviteri, any thoughts?

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post #32 of 45 Old 07-08-2014, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not sure about the need for a close up camera. My 3D1 shots, and even Fuji W3 close ups are great. I just need to change the separation with stereomaker. And this can be done for video as well in post processing using Vegas, etc. Without wide angle, zoom and stills, I don't see the need for the camera at that price point, and granted, I'm just an advanced amateur, not a prosumer.

A very easy solution would be to create a better case for the hero system that allows the two cameras to be separated more or less. http://gopro.com/camera-accessories/3d-hero-system. Oh, and I almost forgot, the Hero 3+ does a version of 4K as well. Two of those cameras, plus a 3D box is around $900 US. And here is more about the possible Hero 4 full 3D capable camera chip and sensors.




If I were doing this, I would take it to Kickstarter.com or similar, and see what the market is willing to put up in $ or euros for development of the camera. You will get more feedback and ideas and money to make a product acceptable to a wider audience.

I admire your pursuit and integrity to produce something of excellent quality, though, and to that end, I will keep watching and waiting for the review of the end product.

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post #33 of 45 Old 07-08-2014, 10:23 AM
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According to their specifications, Cue should be the entirely different product offering much higher video quality than 3D1. It seems that Cue is more aimed at "prosumer" market - let's say 3D enthusiast - prosumer. :-)
Concerning video quality, I would expect it to be on a par with let's say Panasonic HDC-Z10000 camcorder. However, I might be wrong. Aviteri, any thoughts?

Damir
Damir- Matching the image quality of the Z10K will be quite a jump in technology as the Z10K has significantly better glass and 3 chip per camera imagers. It's on a different level than even the Sony TD10.

A prosumer is a term applied to a person who shoots work for hire, a professional, but does it with consumer level equipment. With equipment the Prosumer equipment is mostly applied to some limited technology standard that is less than Broadcast, ENG or EFP, and that of consumer. For example- 4:2:0 video vs. 4:2:2. Camera interfaces directly with pro sound boards using XLR vs all digital audio mounted in the camera and only analog connections for external mics. The specs are all over the place but Prosumer is really more about how the product is used. By the shape alone of the intended design, I saw it as a consumer level product and therefore felt it deserved a consumer market analysis. If this goes Professional or Broadcast Market, the price will be much higher due to a smaller number in the production run and higher quality video. Then as I know broadcasters, they are real fussy about what you have in your Kit. Some won't even let you on the set unless you shoot with Ikegama or Sony Cine Alta. It's a tough business to get respect. The first step is your equipment and second is what and who you last worked for. Consumers and Prosumers don't have that problem.


threed123- I bought a Hero3 Black for my SIL's birthday in May with all sorts of accessories. He is having a blast with it. I plan to stay current with their product line. I remember when they were just a little hole in the wall company at NAB. Today they have a huge booth and are always packed. I also bought some stock last week in their IPO. I've already doubled my investment and then bought it back on a small pull back. I love this company and where they are going.


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post #34 of 45 Old 07-08-2014, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Don--I'm kicking around buying 2 of the Hero3+ and stereo case. I might wait until Hero 4 is out though. Of course my days of dynamic (read reckless) skiing and snowmobiling are pretty much over, but for scenery video it seems to have a lot of promise. Especially if it will show well on my 159" Highpower screen. I guess I should download some 3D youtube and see how that goes first. Have you watched any Hero video on your big screen?


Edit: Missed the IPO, dang it...
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post #35 of 45 Old 07-09-2014, 01:22 AM
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A very easy solution would be to create a better case for the hero system that allows the two cameras to be separated more or less. http://gopro.com/camera-accessories/3d-hero-system. Oh, and I almost forgot, the Hero 3+ does a version of 4K as well.
Concerning Hero systems, I just can't stand its barrel distortion, especially not in 3D. Moreover, extremely wide angle shots in 3D produce non-natural depth of objects (too deep) when viewed on ordinary TV screens or projection screens (even 24mm focal length equivalent is usually problematic from my own experience). I would first change lenses on GoPro and then check the synch if it is OK (I've seen many shots on GoPro 3D which were not in synch!). Moreover, I would try to prolong the 3D cable as well. All together would cost much more than 900 USD. By the way, I think that Hero 3+ does not take 4K in 24p, 25p or 30p, but I might be wrong.

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Damir- Matching the image quality of the Z10K will be quite a jump in technology as the Z10K has significantly better glass and 3 chip per camera imagers. It's on a different level than even the Sony TD10.
I have 3D1 and JVC HMZ1U and friend of mine has Panasonic 10K. I also had 3CCD cameras (Sony TRV 900E) which were genlocked with 3D LANC Master:
http://www-e2.ijs.si/3dlancmaster/

None of them can be compared to a pair of Panasonic GH2 with good lenses (I am talking about the video). My experience is that sensor size matters much more than 3 chips. I expect that Cue's PQ should be somewhere between Panasonic 10K and GH2. However, since Aviteri did not respond yet, so it's hard to know which chip and glass they are going to use.

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post #36 of 45 Old 07-09-2014, 01:33 AM
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If I were doing this, I would take it to Kickstarter.com or similar, and see what the market is willing to put up in $ or euros for development of the camera. You will get more feedback and ideas and money to make a product acceptable to a wider audience.
I agree. This seems a reasonable proposition. Of course, description of the product should be more detailed than the one given on http://transcend-vs.com/.
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post #37 of 45 Old 07-09-2014, 06:47 AM
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Don--I'm kicking around buying 2 of the Hero3+ and stereo case. I might wait until Hero 4 is out though. Of course my days of dynamic (read reckless) skiing and snowmobiling are pretty much over, but for scenery video it seems to have a lot of promise. Especially if it will show well on my 159" Highpower screen. I guess I should download some 3D youtube and see how that goes first. Have you watched any Hero video on your big screen?


Edit: Missed the IPO, dang it...
Yes, even 3D GoPro. I use the WDTV box which will do 1080p YT to my Projector ( Sony VP90ES on a 92" wide screen. )
A good video using GoPro is on Netflix 3D, Art of Flight. It is snow boarding adventure from the Red Bull series. While many shots are done with large format cameras in 3D it is easy to pick out those shot with GoPro with it's signature look of the lens. You should not have a problem. With the right equipment, YouTube does a great job on the big screen. I have other ways to look at YT too but those don't offer the quality ( eg. PS3, Apple TV, ) that the WDTV box has. For the price it is a no brainer to have in the Home Theater.

The GoPro 4 looks exciting. I suspect Nicholas will give us an all in one 3D camcorder with 4K 1080 60p in the near future with that new chip. That likely will be my next GoPro purchase, for my son-in-law. Beyond desert hiking, I have to pass the torch of high adventure shooting now. Wish he would take up scuba diving. Might have to seed the spirit with a little exposure in my pool. But for now surfing is his passion.


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post #38 of 45 Old 07-09-2014, 07:23 AM
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"Concerning Hero systems, I just can't stand its barrel distortion, especially not in 3D."

Problem solved. There is a fix for that in Vegas 13. Works just like the one in Photoshop for still photography. Haven't tried it yet but its on my to-do list.
Not sure how that will work with 3D depth distortion but that too is something I want to play with.I'm not so concerned with the barrel distortion anyway. I'm not one to throw out a whole class of video and still photography because it deviates from the real world. If it is used right in a project with good editing, by a popular vote, I would give it a thumbs up. But, that's just my opinion.

The Hero 3 Silver, I recall, does 1080p15fps, the Hero3+ Black does the 1080p 30 fps. I looked at the specs when I bought it for my SIL and remember making a sigh having to spend the extra bucks for the Black to get 30p. The new Hero4 is rumored to be 108060p for 3D and even 120fps in 2D for better slomo.


"None of them can be compared to a pair of Panasonic GH2 with good lenses (I am talking about the video). My experience is that sensor size matters much more than 3 chips. I expect that Cue's PQ should be somewhere between Panasonic 10K and GH2. However, since Aviteri did not respond yet, so it's hard to know which chip and glass they are going to use."

I don't like to compare cameras in radically different classes. I agree that the image quality of my NEX5n's is better than the image quality of the video of my Z10K too. But that does not mean that I will only shoot everything with the NEX5n twin rig. There are other factors at play when telling the story that the NEX5n just fails at, such as sound capture, zoom and run and gun shooting. If I need super wide angle with no barrel distortion and wide IA, the NEX5n fills the bill. I have different cameras that specialize doing different tasks.
I also can't speculate on future cameras such as the Cue proposal. Talk is cheap, drawings cost a little more, when the prototype is shown to the public we can start to compare, not before. At this point in time, I give credit to Aviteri for a dream and the smarts to do some market research as to what is important. Comparing to GoPro is also not fare. GoPro has the experience and now with the IPO behind them has the budget to make what they want. GoPro is on a roll having paid their dues. The camera is a huge success, both with the pros and consumers, regardless of any of it's shortcomings.


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post #39 of 45 Old 07-09-2014, 08:04 AM
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None of them can be compared to a pair of Panasonic GH2 with good lenses (I am talking about the video). My experience is that sensor size matters much more than 3 chips. I expect that Cue's PQ should be somewhere between Panasonic 10K and GH2. However, since Aviteri did not respond yet, so it's hard to know which chip and glass they are going to use.
I tend to agree - that is why I have purchased a GH4. However, I have not invested in a second unit up to now. The major disadvantage is that it is much harder to pair two Panasonic units. There is a controller for the GH3/GH4, but I am not sure how well this would work out - and it is more expensive to invest in 4K units (together with all the additional equipment required).

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post #40 of 45 Old 07-09-2014, 11:26 PM
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Problem solved. There is a fix for that in Vegas 13. Works just like the one in Photoshop for still photography. Haven't tried it yet but its on my to-do list.
Not sure how that will work with 3D depth distortion but that too is something I want to play with.I'm not so concerned with the barrel distortion anyway. I'm not one to throw out a whole class of video and still photography because it deviates from the real world. If it is used right in a project with good editing, by a popular vote, I would give it a thumbs up. But, that's just my opinion.
The problem is still not entirely solved:
- fixing barrel distortion (e.g. with Vegas 13 or some other editor) decreases resolution
- the extreme wide-angle causes extreme prolongation of subjects in z-axis (depth) on "normal" 3D screens
- many 3D GoPro clips I've seen are not synchronized sufficiently

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The Hero 3 Silver, I recall, does 1080p15fps, the Hero3+ Black does the 1080p 30 fps. I looked at the specs when I bought it for my SIL and remember making a sigh having to spend the extra bucks for the Black to get 30p. The new Hero4 is rumored to be 108060p for 3D and even 120fps in 2D for better slomo.
I was talking about 4K.
How did you mean that Hero4 would be 1080p60 for 3D and 1080p120 for 2D? Isn't 3D achieved by pairing two Hero cameras? Why would they decrease rate for 3D? Problems with synching the cameras?
By the way, 1080p100/120 is not so exotic anymore. It seems that it exists in Panasonic FZ1000 (4K) as well.

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I also can't speculate on future cameras such as the Cue proposal. Talk is cheap, drawings cost a little more, when the prototype is shown to the public we can start to compare, not before.
I agree.
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I tend to agree - that is why I have purchased a GH4. However, I have not invested in a second unit up to now. The major disadvantage is that it is much harder to pair two Panasonic units. There is a controller for the GH3/GH4, but I am not sure how well this would work out - and it is more expensive to invest in 4K units (together with all the additional equipment required).
It should work out. At least I've got an information that it also works on a pair of GH4s.
I've made a controller (for Panasonics) by myself, since I wanted to have a control over time differences while powering up and sending commands to the cameras. However, commercial controllers should also work. If you want, once I can bring my controller and you can check if it works for you.

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"I was talking about 4K.
How did you mean that Hero4 would be 1080p60 for 3D and 1080p120 for 2D? Isn't 3D achieved by pairing two Hero cameras? Why would they decrease rate for 3D? Problems with synching the cameras?
By the way, 1080p100/120 is not so exotic anymore. It seems that it exists in Panasonic FZ1000 (4K) as well.
"

I may not have the specs accurate as I was going from 2 month old memory, but some recent developments in the circuits that are used by GoPro indicate an all in one solution chip design for a 3D 4K solution. Few details but some specs are released. Still depends if GoPro will use this in a future camera. Considering the enthusiasm of the CEO for 3D it is a strong possibility.

"The problem is still not entirely solved:
- fixing barrel distortion (e.g. with Vegas 13 or some other editor) decreases resolution
- the extreme wide-angle causes extreme prolongation of subjects in z-axis (depth) on "normal" 3D screens
- many 3D GoPro clips I've seen are not synchronized sufficiently
"

When it comes to excuses for why one doesn't want to shoot something based on a reduction of edge resolution or scene cropping ( also a side effect of the barrel distortion correction, similar to post image stabilization) I don't want to hear it. In my company, I have fired more assistants who came back from assignment with just a couple shots, claiming the opportunity for quality was not good enough. I reminded them the assignment was "Get the Shot!" If I don't have it, I have nothing. The guys who came back with a hundred shots but half of them were out of focus, some over exposed/under exposed or even captured with a lower res camera, had 50 I could use in the project. Even if 40 of those needed reframed, that guy kept his job because he got the shot and I had something to work with. I respect the attitude toward perfection, but perfection rarely gets the paycheck. It's the story that matters and I operate, even as an amateur with this philosophy. So, I will never pooh pooh a solution to a problem because of some minor deviation from perfection when the option is we have nothing.
If you wait for perfection, you will wait forever and never have anything, meanwhile others will be using what they have and telling the story. None of the defects you mentioned bother me, I'm too busy enjoying the show!


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post #43 of 45 Old 07-10-2014, 01:58 AM
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I may not have the specs accurate as I was going from 2 month old memory, but some recent developments in the circuits that are used by GoPro indicate an all in one solution chip design for a 3D 4K solution. Few details but some specs are released. Still depends if GoPro will use this in a future camera. Considering the enthusiasm of the CEO for 3D it is a strong possibility.
Don, is the above link the right one? I cannot find any 3D 4K solution there.

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When it comes to excuses for why one doesn't want to shoot something based on a reduction of edge resolution or scene cropping ( also a side effect of the barrel distortion correction, similar to post image stabilization) I don't want to hear it. In my company, I have fired more assistants who came back from assignment with just a couple shots, claiming the opportunity for quality was not good enough!
I agree if you desperately need the footage (especially 2D).
On the other hand, I would rather see one excellent 3D video/movie (sharpness, picture quality, stereoscopic alignment, story, ...) than ten average videos. I would rather see no 3D videos at all than bad ones. In my experience, only high-quality stereoscopic videos can improve public opinion about 3D. Shows with lower resolution, bad stereoscopic alignment/depth or badly synched footage do not do any good for 3D (you can find plenty of them on YouTube). I have also seen some 3D videos which were otherwise excellent (the content, story), but few badly aligned or synched clips spoiled everything. Did I want to see those videos again? No way!

That said I still think that you can make very good footage out of GoPros (being careful when "de-barreling" it, having smaller stereo parallax and measuring the actual synch between the cameras). Namely, I am regularly following GoPro advancements and the pages related to modifying it's optical performance, like:
http://www.back-bone.ca/

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post #44 of 45 Old 07-10-2014, 06:41 AM
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Don, is the above link the right one? I cannot find any 3D 4K solution there.
Yes, it is correct link to the web page. Scroll down to the A9 chip specifications. Here you will see a link to a pdf file. Open that up and page through it until you come to a block diagram of the 4K system board. it is shown with just one sensor and lens assembly plugged in but if you understand how to read it, it shows circuitry for sensor #1 and for sensor #2 . The CEO when asked about the A9 system said it "may include options for 3D stereo if needed by the customer ( aka GoPro) but it would need to limit the frame rate in 3D due to processing speed limitations.". Point being, this technology is a hint of future capability. I would not be surprised if Cue isn't planning to use Ambarella parts to make their version. No company makes every component for a finished product these days, not Apple, not Ford, not Maytag and not even Samsung.

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I agree if you desperately need the footage (especially 2D).
On the other hand, I would rather see one excellent 3D video/movie (sharpness, picture quality, stereoscopic alignment, story, ...) than ten average videos. I would rather see no 3D videos at all than bad ones. In my experience, only high-quality stereoscopic videos can improve public opinion about 3D. Shows with lower resolution, bad stereoscopic alignment/depth or badly synched footage do not do any good for 3D (you can find plenty of them on YouTube). I have also seen some 3D videos which were otherwise excellent (the content, story), but few badly aligned or synched clips spoiled everything. Did I want to see those videos again? No way!
I don't beleive you! I'd bet a ton of money once you saw your perfect/excellent 3D video a few times you would be asking for more. I know a couple hobbyists who work on a video project for years striving for perfection and are never satisfied. Meanwhile I have produced dozens of stories, none perfect by even my standards, but at some point I say it tells the story I want, and I need to move on. Then after 25,000 YT views, not one with a comment that my image wasn't high resolution ( because I maybe recropped the 1080i frame) but people still watch them. It's not easy to get more than a couple hundred views of a hobby video of your vacation, and even less in 3D. But tell a story that entertains and informs, and the audience will watch and enjoy.

I did have one negative comment that my Bellagio fountain video was out of sync by a fraction of a frame. I don't disagree. But, in the overall picture it doesn't matter. To demonstrate that sync problem the complainer had to blow up a frame grab many times and zero in on a water droplet in a frame that was a couple hundred yards wide stage. Had I shot a video of the interesting flapping of the wings of a humming bird, then precise sync does matter and I would have chosen different equipment. What I wanted to achieve in the wide shot is the entire scene without panning.

But that is just my experience, ie. it's the story stupid! The story trumps everything else. The quality only matters if it seriously detracts from the story, like underexposed and dark 3D. Or 3D with severe double images on popouts. I have a few of those too in my experiments in the early days. If the story is interesting, a couple bad scenes makes no difference to me and I would watch it again. The way to get 3D popular is not perfection in one movie. Heck, there was even a debate about the classic 3D game changer, Avatar. It is to offer a 3D medium in a wide variety of content that has adequate quality, read as 'acceptable' to the mass population. Entertain and inform them and 3D will sell! The junk will always be there but the bar for really good will be constantly rising.

Strive for perfection, but be satisfied with excellence. Excellence is a combination of the story that entertains and informs, combined with enough quality that doesn't detract from the story. If the audience is only a bunch of perfectionists, then they will be the judge. If the audience is the world's population, then the numbers is what matters.


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post #45 of 45 Old 07-11-2014, 06:03 AM
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Excellence is a combination of the story that entertains and informs, combined with enough quality that doesn't detract from the story.
I completely agree. Very good definition! :-)

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