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post #121 of 147 Old 06-13-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
I'm running 50% on hour long project renders in Vegas - six attempts but only three completions. Vegas crashed late last night without giving me anything useful to track down the problem. After this first render attempt failed, I upgraded to the latest version of Vegas 12 (still haven't installed Vegas 13 yet), hoping it might resolve the problems. The next render completed, but I have about 10 render anomalies I've never seen in this project. In sections that never tripped up Vegas before, I see very serious blocking artifacts. I'll do the upgrade to Vegas 13, but if I can't resolve the issue, I may be forced to revert to an older version of Vegas 12. The quality of the exports from Edius hasn't changed - left/right AVCHD streams at 25 mbps average, 50 mbps peak. Vegas has always handled the Edius exports extremely well, losing minimal image quality in previous renders to Blu-ray 3D 24p at 25 mbps.

So, the question is, has anyone else experienced blocking artifacts or a decrease in the quality of renders in newer versions of Vegas? This is a very disturbing development. It's the kind of thing that makes me so reluctant to make any changes to a system mid-project. But Vegas' frustrating tendency to crash after hours of rendering made me risk it. As usual, I'm regretting the decision.
I must be lucky never has vegas pro crash on me I use v12, I have downloaded trial of v12 will try over the weekend to see if it gives me any problems. I have render 1 -2hour edits no problem unlike v11 seemed to hate me.
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post #122 of 147 Old 06-14-2014, 01:23 PM
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Joe- I, once again hadunknown crashing in Vegas 13 on a 90 minute project. You know I am well aware of the temp files hog when doing Blu Ray iso renders. So that was not an issue either. I remember that some time back Woolfgang had suggested shutting off the GPU so I tried that and the render completed although it was about 33% slower for the video part. At least I got completion consistently on about a dozen 9 hour renders. When I began to have preview issues on the timeline playback with NewBlue Titler Pro3, it suggested my graphics card driver was out of date. So I went to the AMD website and sure enough they just released a new driver compatible with Vegas 13. I updated the driver and the Catalyst display software and now all those long renders complete as well using the GPU render engine and that 9 hour render is complete in 5.5 hours! Of course the NB Titler also works and no longer have issues on the secondary monitor.

I have the opinion now that I need to keep alert on the graphics card driver status as well as Vegas updates.
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post #123 of 147 Old 06-15-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
I'm running 50% on hour long project renders in Vegas - six attempts but only three completions. Vegas crashed late last night without giving me anything useful to track down the problem. After this first render attempt failed, I upgraded to the latest version of Vegas 12 (still haven't installed Vegas 13 yet), hoping it might resolve the problems. The next render completed, but I have about 10 render anomalies I've never seen in this project. In sections that never tripped up Vegas before, I see very serious blocking artifacts. I'll do the upgrade to Vegas 13, but if I can't resolve the issue, I may be forced to revert to an older version of Vegas 12. The quality of the exports from Edius hasn't changed - left/right AVCHD streams at 25 mbps average, 50 mbps peak. Vegas has always handled the Edius exports extremely well, losing minimal image quality in previous renders to Blu-ray 3D 24p at 25 mbps.

So, the question is, has anyone else experienced blocking artifacts or a decrease in the quality of renders in newer versions of Vegas? This is a very disturbing development. It's the kind of thing that makes me so reluctant to make any changes to a system mid-project. But Vegas' frustrating tendency to crash after hours of rendering made me risk it. As usual, I'm regretting the decision.

Try to switch off the GPU acceleration when rendering.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
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post #124 of 147 Old 06-16-2014, 03:02 AM
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My opinion about Vegas Movie Studio 11 and Vegas Pro 12 is that they are not very stable. In order to get the final render without hanging or glitch problems in 3D you have to be cautious. My experience is that I should not work with external disks and GPU acceleration should be switched off. Moreover, the footage should not be in separate (left and right) files, but, preferably, in left-right configuration. Moreover Sony Vegas does not like xvid avi files (glitches and other problems are more frequent when using such files). I still have not found video codec which would run fluidly in Sony Vegas (non-pro and pro) for files in left-right configuration.

On the other hand, Edius (6.5) runs smoothly.

However, Edius auto-3D-align option (rectify) is not accurate and cannot be compared with Vegas auto alignment option which is very accurate.
Moreover, after aligning the files, Edius output is not as sharp as Sony's one. Go figure.

The results of auto aligning are attached below (see left-bottom part of the picture produced by Edius).

The relatively bad auto-align of Edius and slightly more blur video is a no-go for me, so I am still using Vegas (both versions). If only Vegas is more stable and fluid... :-(

Damir
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post #125 of 147 Old 06-16-2014, 11:25 AM
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I'm finding Vegas 13 the most stable of all for 3D. In Vegas 12 it was pretty stable too on the last update except if I started to move things around real fast this would soon cause it to hang and get the "Not responding" notice. needing to reboot. V13, I can run for days of editing complex projects and never a problem.

I am suspecting something odd, however. Whern shooting 29.97 Fps and rendering to 23.976 FPS for ISO file, the result tends to judder more than I recall in the past. Shooting 23.976 and output 23.976 is no problem of course.

I put my Z10k in 29.976 FPS for a project recently at Disneyland and now wish I had not done that. But I needed to see how it did with the conversion. It only judders a small amount while panning right to left. I had hoped to be able to capture the motion in the scene more effectively.
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post #126 of 147 Old 06-16-2014, 12:18 PM
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In Vegas 12 it was pretty stable too on the last update except if I started to move things around real fast this would soon cause it to hang and get the "Not responding" notice. needing to reboot. V13, I can run for days of editing complex projects and never a problem.
Which update (build) are you using and have you noticed the difference from the previous builds? I became very cautious about updates after installing new updates on Movie Studio 11. Only the basic version (220) of MS11, after saving, "remembered" all the keyframes for text position, size and stereoscopic depth. When I upgraded to higher build, some of the keyframes were missing after loading the project (including the projects which were saved by that higher builds). Always and without exceptions! Bummer! I (and some other guys) let Sony know about it, but it was never solved in MS11, at least in my best knowledge.

I noticed the problem with Edius 3D aligning since the program was in a testing phase. I never understood why nobody mentioned that problem before. The auto-aligning function is really bad (it seems by the rule). Wolfgang (or other guys using Edius), have you ever auto-aligned (rectified) clips from two cameras on Edius?

Damir
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post #127 of 147 Old 06-16-2014, 02:47 PM
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Vegas Pro 13 is on it's initial release.

I don't recall ever experiencing your problem with keyframes disappearing with updates and I do quite a few in my projects. But as you have had that bad experience, I would suggest you can always revert to the veg backup file. Or, get into the habit of making a copy of your VEG files before updating your only one with new software version which would also save out an updated veg.BKU. There is sometimes one other backup veg file in the temp folder you can access and rename it. You'll need to find it by the date it was stored because the file name is rather cryptic in the temp folder. There are the ones used when your Vegas crashes and you need to restart from the last auto save. They can be renamed with a *.veg and then you can open them to see if your keyframes can be recovered. With these two levels of auto backup you may be able to recover the keyframes more easily by opening these in the earlier version of Vegas Pro.
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post #128 of 147 Old 06-16-2014, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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The most disturbing thing I noticed when upgrading to the latest build of Vegas 12 is that 24p MVC files rendered from 60i footage look considerably softer than in the build i was using before, not to mention the severe blocking problem in some shots. I have shots of waterfalls that look like a blurry mess compared to the results I was getting before the upgrade. I'll triple check the settings, of course, but I'm extremely disappointed in the latest renders.

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post #129 of 147 Old 06-16-2014, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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In Vegas 12 it was pretty stable too on the last update except if I started to move things around real fast this would soon cause it to hang and get the "Not responding" notice. needing to reboot. V13, I can run for days of editing complex projects and never a problem.
Which update (build) are you using and have you noticed the difference from the previous builds? I became very cautious about updates after installing new updates on Movie Studio 11. Only the basic version (220) of MS11, after saving, "remembered" all the keyframes for text position, size and stereoscopic depth. When I upgraded to higher build, some of the keyframes were missing after loading the project (including the projects which were saved by that higher builds). Always and without exceptions! Bummer! I (and some other guys) let Sony know about it, but it was never solved in MS11, at least in my best knowledge.

I noticed the problem with Edius 3D aligning since the program was in a testing phase. I never understood why nobody mentioned that problem before. The auto-aligning function is really bad (it seems by the rule). Wolfgang (or other guys using Edius), have you ever auto-aligned (rectified) clips from two cameras on Edius?

Damir
So, the problem you've seen has been when using "Rectify" in Edius with dual camera left-right files? I thought you were talking about using the function with JVC MVC files. My experience with "Rectify" and the JVC files has been pretty good. Most of the time, I've found it unnecessary, so long as I was careful when leveling the shot and setting the convergence. But, when I have used it (as is sometimes necessary when using the SBE), it's worked pretty well. Of course, using any stereoscopic correction or scaling softens the image, but generally I get good results because the TD1's native image is so crisp.

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post #130 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 12:48 AM
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Vegas Pro 13 is on it's initial release.
I thought about Vegas Pro 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
I don't recall ever experiencing your problem with keyframes disappearing with updates and I do quite a few in my projects. But as you have had that bad experience, I would suggest you can always revert to the veg backup file.
Thanks for the info. It might be useful when upgrading.

Damir
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post #131 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 12:52 AM
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The most disturbing thing I noticed when upgrading to the latest build of Vegas 12 is that 24p MVC files rendered from 60i footage look considerably softer than in the build i was using before, not to mention the severe blocking problem in some shots.
Can you "downgrade" to earlier build and check? If this is true I won't upgrade to higher build of Vegas Pro 12.
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post #132 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 12:55 AM
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So, the problem you've seen has been when using "Rectify" in Edius with dual camera left-right files.
Yes. I did not mean JVC files, since those are, usually, quite well aligned and there should be no problem to align them.
By the way, haven't you noticed any difference in sharpness when comparing Vegas and Edius output (after aligning them)?

Damir
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post #133 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 01:04 AM
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Of course, using any stereoscopic correction or scaling softens the image, but generally I get good results because the TD1's native image is so crisp.
I always use sharpening filter together with stereoscopic adjustment filter (for video clips, not for pictures). The annoying thing is that it seems that sharpening filter is usually too strong.

Concerning crisp image of HMZ1, left part of the right picture is frequently slightly blurred (not always!). Have no idea why, except that codec maybe takes too large portion of the available bitrate for the left picture and the right part of the right picture. :-)

Damir
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post #134 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you "downgrade" to earlier build and check? If this is true I won't upgrade to higher build of Vegas Pro 12.
What happened when I upgraded to the latest build was that the install changed 1920x1080 24p output to 1280x720 60p output. Other project and export personalization settings seemed the same, and I didn't notice. It was getting late, and the first render attempt had already failed with the earlier build. I quickly did the upgrade and tried again. That time it finished, but the results looked bad. I'm rendering again and hopefully the results will be more like what I'm used to seeing.

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post #135 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes. I did not mean JVC files, since those are, usually, quite well aligned and there should be no problem to align them.
By the way, haven't you noticed any difference in sharpness when comparing Vegas and Edius output (after aligning them)?

Damir
It's really apples and oranges comparing Vegas and Edius after adjusting the JVC files. In Vegas, they have to be split before they can be used, then paired, adjusted, and exported. There are lots of opportunities for the results (Vegas vs Edius) to look different, depending on the codecs and bitrates used for the exports. I get extremely good results when exporting separate left/right files in Edius after adjustments, and those results hold up well when Vegas does the de-interlacing to MVC at 24p. I haven't noticed any excessive softness that I don't attribute to the 60i to 24p conversion process. "Rectify" has done a good job getting the left/right sides close. I use "Rectify" first, then make minor adjustments manually. That way "Rectify" handles the subtle and difficult rotation and I adjust horizontally or vertically if I need to.

Since it's a much more round-about process to work with the JVC files in Vegas, I don't do it. My workflow in Edius/Vegas is fine tuned to my satisfaction. I was spooked by the softness in the latest Blu-ray 3D burn, but that was my mistake. I didn't notice that Vegas changed the output setting after the install of the latest build. I suspect things will be back to normal with the next render that completes.

Both my TD1 and HMZ1 have good focus in left and right files. There's a mechanical problem in some units (with the JVC and Sony camcorders from reports I've read) which causes one side to be out of focus. I got lucky. Both of my JVC camcorders are excellent.

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post #136 of 147 Old 06-17-2014, 11:40 PM
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I'm rendering again and hopefully the results will be more like what I'm used to seeing.
Just let me know about the result.

Damir
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post #137 of 147 Old 06-18-2014, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Just let me know about the result.

Damir
Back to normal.
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post #138 of 147 Old 06-21-2014, 02:07 AM
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It's really apples and oranges comparing Vegas and Edius after adjusting the JVC files.
In fact I was comparing the results got from the same pair of clips (made by GH2s) when rendered by Vegas or Edius. Moreover, I rendered Edius footage into uncompressed video, just to be sure that there is nothing lost "in translation". However, the footage was softer.
So, besides sloppy automatic alignment nobody noticed slightly more blurred picture in Edius?

This is really interesting. The same happened when I compared 60i and 24p clips from HMZ1U. Nobody noticed before that 24p clips were softer (with lower resolution) than 60i. Maybe I am really too sensitive concerning the resolution, but I am convinced that 3D always gains from higher resolution.

Will try to make an experiment with JVC files (to split them for Vegas and adjust them stereoscopically in both programs) when I catch some time...

Damir
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post #139 of 147 Old 06-21-2014, 02:07 AM
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Back to normal.
Thanks!
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post #140 of 147 Old 06-21-2014, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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In fact I was comparing the results got from the same pair of clips (made by GH2s) when rendered by Vegas or Edius. Moreover, I rendered Edius footage into uncompressed video, just to be sure that there is nothing lost "in translation". However, the footage was softer.
So, besides sloppy automatic alignment nobody noticed slightly more blurred picture in Edius?

This is really interesting. The same happened when I compared 60i and 24p clips from HMZ1U. Nobody noticed before that 24p clips were softer (with lower resolution) than 60i. Maybe I am really too sensitive concerning the resolution, but I am convinced that 3D always gains from higher resolution.

Will try to make an experiment with JVC files (to split them for Vegas and adjust them stereoscopically in both programs) when I catch some time...

Damir
I haven't done tests as carefully as you, Damir, although I remember your comments about that issue from several months ago. Based on the limited anecdotal "comparisons" I've done, I think you're probably right about 24p looking softer than 60i. I don't know why this happens, although I suspect it's probably just differences in how the JVCs process interlaced vs progressive footage during the capture process. So as not to have to mix 60i and 24p footage in my Garden project (which complicates renders), I still prefer to shoot footage for that project at 60i. I simply move the camera very slowly. Other projects I prefer to shoot at 24p, as long as the motion I'm recording isn't too fast. 24p from the HMZ1 looks very good and it simplifies editing. As for comparing renders from Vegas and Edius, I don't have any dual camera footage to do direct comparisons. Since I can't use native JVC 3D footage in Vegas from the TD1 or HMZ1, it would still have to go through that one additional conversion step. That's unnecessary for the way I work, so I don't concern myself with it. My workflow is to edit in Edius at 10 bit resolution, export dual stream left/right to AVCHD at 25 mbps average, 50 mbps peak, then use Vegas to convert the interlaced footage during the Blu-ray 3D/24p iso file creation process. I've rendered a lot of footage in Edius this way, and I'm very happy with Vegas' conversion (which has improved dramatically over the last couple of software versions). I think the quality holds up well. I've done many comparisons of the 60i exports from Edius with the 24p Blu-ray 3D footage, and all I can say is that they appear very close except for the obvious softening due to the "reduced-frame rate/reduced-bit rate" conversion process. It took a lot of experimenting to get to this point, but it's a workflow that gives me acceptable results. At this level, with this consumer grade gear, it's as much as I expect.

Joe Clark

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post #141 of 147 Old 06-24-2014, 04:40 AM
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This week I finally had the chance to watch some of my recordings of my two Sony cams (HDR-TD10 fitted with a SBE and a HDR-TD20). I used the HDMI cable that Sony supplied to play back with my Optoma 3D HD beamer. Strangely enough, playing back the footage of the TD20, I had to switch L and R to get proper 3D image using the beamer's remote. TD10 footage plays back perfect as is and does not require a L/R switching. Does this mean that I have to switch L and R of the TD20 clips in Vegas as well? Or is this just a play back issue and will it not bug me using it in Vegas since, obviously, I intend to use footage of both cams in one project...

Thanks!
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post #142 of 147 Old 06-26-2014, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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crunchy3d,

It occurred to me that when you render in Edius and get blurry results, you might not be using Lanczos 2 resampling. IMO, it's by far the best method to use for interlaced footage.

Menu>Settings>Project Settings to Setup>Resampling method>Lanczos 2.

I don't know if this will help, but it's worth a try.

Joe Clark

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post #143 of 147 Old 06-27-2014, 11:34 AM
 
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This week I finally had the chance to watch some of my recordings of my two Sony cams (HDR-TD10 fitted with a SBE and a HDR-TD20). I used the HDMI cable that Sony supplied to play back with my Optoma 3D HD beamer. Strangely enough, playing back the footage of the TD20, I had to switch L and R to get proper 3D image using the beamer's remote. TD10 footage plays back perfect as is and does not require a L/R switching. Does this mean that I have to switch L and R of the TD20 clips in Vegas as well? Or is this just a play back issue and will it not bug me using it in Vegas since, obviously, I intend to use footage of both cams in one project...

Thanks!
I'm assuming Vegas works Like Sony Movie Studio. I just load the 3D video into the project and then watch it in anaglyph mode. If it needs switching you will easily know then. The Optoma should not invert, but sometimes it does, and I've had that problem with my Optoma as well. Both cameras shoot 3D in 1920x1080/60i so it might be the interlacing that trips up the projector.
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post #144 of 147 Old 07-03-2014, 11:02 AM
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crunchy3d, It occurred to me that when you render in Edius and get blurry results, you might not be using Lanczos 2 resampling. IMO, it's by far the best method to use for interlaced footage.

Menu>Settings>Project Settings to Setup>Resampling method>Lanczos 2.

I don't know if this will help, but it's worth a try.
In fact the footage was progressive from two Lumix GH2s. I still did not have time to make the comparison with original HMZ1U footage... So for interlaced video you propose using Lanczos 2 resampling? I suppose that this option should be somewhere among project options (currently I am not on the PC with installed Edius)?
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post #145 of 147 Old 07-08-2014, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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In fact the footage was progressive from two Lumix GH2s. I still did not have time to make the comparison with original HMZ1U footage... So for interlaced video you propose using Lanczos 2 resampling? I suppose that this option should be somewhere among project options (currently I am not on the PC with installed Edius)?
Yes, you choose Lanczos 2 when you start the program, or under Menu>Settings>Project Settings. IMO it does a good job when you render out the final video.

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post #146 of 147 Old 07-08-2014, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I have to give credit where credit is due. The first serious draft of my Garden project finished rendering this evening in Vegas 13 - on the first try and without a hitch. On the other hand, Vegas 12's latest build choked on several of the files and I couldn't proceed on my main edit computer, which didn't have Vegas 13 installed. I had been afraid to risk an upgrade, so I left my main rig alone until I finished the draft. When 12 crashed repeatedly while trying to load the files, I tried them in Vegas 13 on my everyday system. It didn't have a problem, so I installed 13 on the edit rig. I didn't have any more problems getting the project assembled.

I dropped the rendered L/R video files and audio from Edius into Vegas, added chapter markers and let it burn. It still needs considerable tweaking (especially audio), but it feels good finally to have something I'm relatively happy with. Of course, it's a niche subject that won't appeal to a lot of people. Avatar it ain't. However, I think people who are interested in horticulture and/or iconic cultural institutions will find it worthwhile. At about 1:20 in length, and at 25 mbps, it takes up only half a 25GB Blu-ray disc. The quality still looks quite respectable, because almost every shot was taken with the JVC TD1 set to MVC mode at 34 mbps. However, even though I shot with slow pans and tilts, I slo-mo'ed many shots so they wouldn't blur or judder unacceptably. That makes it more static than I'd like.
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Joe Clark

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post #147 of 147 Old 07-09-2014, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
When 12 crashed repeatedly while trying to load the files, I tried them in Vegas 13 on my everyday system. It didn't have a problem, so I installed 13 on the edit rig. I didn't have any more problems getting the project assembled.
Good to know. I might upgrade in the near future...

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