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post #61 of 144 Old 06-28-2014, 10:18 AM
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[quote=shearer69;25335098]
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Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
Sounds like the custom option would be an advantage for 1080 24p since the maximum PD default setting for producing 24p is 16mbps. 28 mbps bluray burning of a custom at that same bitrate should definitely be an advantage


Cyberlink got back to me and said either next update or version of PD will comply fully with avchd 2.0 3D and they looking into making all templates have customisable bit rates.
That's good news, but I'll breathe easier when they actually do it. It's starting to come back to me now: the other big reason (besides bitrate) I didn't use PD for 24p Blu-ray was that de-interlacing was much worse than Vegas. PD output looked choppy. Sony improved 60i to 24p conversion dramatically with the version 12 update. Before that, Vegas output was similar to PD - choppy when even moderate motion was present in the video. I used an external Vegas plug-in for a while to overcome the limitation (but it was slow and tedious). It was great when Sony eliminated the need to do that. PD needs to include processing that will do what Vegas does. If it becomes possible to render in PD at a higher bitrate and have 3D menus, it becomes a lot more attractive to me for final output to Blu-ray 3D.

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post #62 of 144 Old 06-28-2014, 10:33 AM
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Not sure if this will help you, but when I use PD, I have to put the 3D TV in 2D mode and then send the video using Line alternate mode. The 3D is great looking. I still only use PD for projects I want DTS and 3D menus.
I use my LG passive TV in 2D mode for 3D editing. It's a great way to work, with the only caveat being that I have to wear the passive glasses upside down. They're so light that I can't tell the difference, so it's not an issue. Both the small program monitor and the full screen program preview mode show full-color 3D. It's almost like watching a Blu-ray 3D disc, because the preview is so smooth in Edius. I can't imagine going back to anaglyph or an active 3D display.

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post #63 of 144 Old 06-28-2014, 11:13 AM
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Unfortunately, after my experience with Cyberlink customer service- I actually paid for 2 rounds of the phone version- I wouldn't believe them if they said that it is dark at night and light in the day. They like to patronize you and tell you exactly what you want to hear. They were saying these things to me almost 2 years ago. They always promise that its coming out in the next update. I'm fairly convinced that, as far as 3d goes, we've been cast adrift since they know that there is almost no demand for it anymore. Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. I must have talked to these people at least a dozen times a year or 2 ago. Joseph will remember this!
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post #64 of 144 Old 06-28-2014, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Joseph Clark;25335570]
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Originally Posted by shearer69 View Post

That's good news, but I'll breathe easier when they actually do it. It's starting to come back to me now: the other big reason (besides bitrate) I didn't use PD for 24p Blu-ray was that de-interlacing was much worse than Vegas. PD output looked choppy. Sony improved 60i to 24p conversion dramatically with the version 12 update. Before that, Vegas output was similar to PD - choppy when even moderate motion was present in the video. I used an external Vegas plug-in for a while to overcome the limitation (but it was slow and tedious). It was great when Sony eliminated the need to do that. PD needs to include processing that will do what Vegas does. If it becomes possible to render in PD at a higher bitrate and have 3D menus, it becomes a lot more attractive to me for final output to Blu-ray 3D.
The first clip I did was choppy when deinterliced in pd12, it seems ok now though but can't understand colour change when done with vegas 12
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post #65 of 144 Old 06-29-2014, 08:41 AM
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I use my LG passive TV in 2D mode for 3D editing. It's a great way to work, with the only caveat being that I have to wear the passive glasses upside down. They're so light that I can't tell the difference, so it's not an issue. Both the small program monitor and the full screen program preview mode show full-color 3D. It's almost like watching a Blu-ray 3D disc, because the preview is so smooth in Edius. I can't imagine going back to anaglyph or an active 3D display.
Never had to flip the glasses. But I use a Vizio in 2D and just set the output on secondary monitor to Line Alternate. I keep the primary monitor (2D) with it's windows set for Left only display.

Why don't you just swap the polar inserts in your glasses. Must get uncomfortable wearing them upside down for edit sessions.

I had my Lens Crafters tech make a pair of reading glasses to sharply focus from 12" to 5 ft for my two monitors distances. Then I just use the clip on polar glasses that flip up. Amazon sells them. These really help to focus on the fine text in the editing screen timeline.


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post #66 of 144 Old 06-29-2014, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
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Never had to flip the glasses. But I use a Vizio in 2D and just set the output on secondary monitor to Line Alternate. I keep the primary monitor (2D) with it's windows set for Left only display.

Why don't you just swap the polar inserts in your glasses. Must get uncomfortable wearing them upside down for edit sessions.

I had my Lens Crafters tech make a pair of reading glasses to sharply focus from 12" to 5 ft for my two monitors distances. Then I just use the clip on polar glasses that flip up. Amazon sells them. These really help to focus on the fine text in the editing screen timeline.
There's no need to swap the lenses. These particular LG glasses are featherweight. I can barely feel them on my head. I used to use a special pair of prescription glasses, too, but since I started using a 47" LG for 3D editing, that's not necessary, either. There are multiple benefits to using such a big passive 3D screen, not the least of which is that the display is always in "3D mode" without having to do anything. It's a nice side effect of how the passive technology works in Edius when you switch to "line interleave." If I used dual monitors, it would probably work the same as it does in Vegas. In Vegas, the small preview window doesn't appear in 3D when using a single passive monitor. It switches to 3D when I go full screen, of course, and the glasses can be used normally. I actually prefer my current setup to using dual monitors. Overall, it works better for me.

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post #67 of 144 Old 07-02-2014, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, after my experience with Cyberlink customer service- I actually paid for 2 rounds of the phone version- I wouldn't believe them if they said that it is dark at night and light in the day. They like to patronize you and tell you exactly what you want to hear. They were saying these things to me almost 2 years ago. They always promise that its coming out in the next update. I'm fairly convinced that, as far as 3d goes, we've been cast adrift since they know that there is almost no demand for it anymore. Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. I must have talked to these people at least a dozen times a year or 2 ago. Joseph will remember this!
Well cyberlink got back to me today, PD 12 is compliant with avchd2.0 3D, creating an mvc avchd 2. 3d wth 3D menu but not to an optical disc. I told them they failed to mention how to use this format in the manual or any tutorials. Any I made one with a 3D menu to a removal drive/sd card then created disc with imgburn by copy the BDMV folder and it works no problem in my LG bluray player, bit rate was 26 with overall max of 28
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post #68 of 144 Old 07-02-2014, 01:04 PM
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Well cyberlink got back to me today, PD 12 is compliant with avchd2.0 3D, creating an mvc avchd 2. 3d wth 3D menu but not to an optical disc. I told them they failed to mention how to use this format in the manual or any tutorials. Any I made one with a 3D menu to a removal drive/sd card then created disc with imgburn by copy the BDMV folder and it works no problem in my LG bluray player, bit rate was 26 with overall max of 28
Thanks for the update. I'm curious as to why you would choose to shoot in the AVCHD format instead of 34mbps mp4?
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post #69 of 144 Old 07-02-2014, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the update. I'm curious as to why you would choose to shoot in the AVCHD format instead of 34mbps mp4?

I don't shoot in avchd I do shoot in mp4 34mps the highest quality of the camera. The avchd 2.0 3D allows the mp4 to be encoded in full hd @ 28mps with menus as is and burn to either dvd/bluray and for short films a dvd is ideal to me it keeps fps same as original also. If I was making long film over say an hour I do rencode to 24p and use bluray disks. My 2D stuff was all done in vegas pro 12 or dvdarchitect 6. I did get trial of edius pro7 but couldn't get it to work waiting on grass valley getting back to me.
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post #70 of 144 Old 07-05-2014, 09:39 PM
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I don't shoot in avchd I do shoot in mp4 34mps the highest quality of the camera. The avchd 2.0 3D allows the mp4 to be encoded in full hd @ 28mps with menus as is and burn to either dvd/bluray and for short films a dvd is ideal to me it keeps fps same as original also. If I was making long film over say an hour I do rencode to 24p and use bluray disks. My 2D stuff was all done in vegas pro 12 or dvdarchitect 6. I did get trial of edius pro7 but couldn't get it to work waiting on grass valley getting back to me.
Great! You have a workflow that maintains both high quality video and the original frame rate - with 3D menus! Thanks for sharing. When I'm finished with my Garden project, I'm going to render it from Edius as a dual stream file (28mbps/60i) and try to create an AVCHD 2.0 disc with 3D menus in PowerDirector. Sounds like that version has the potential to be significantly better looking than the Vegas version. Of course, it won't be commercially viable, but it certainly would be good to have.

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post #71 of 144 Old 07-06-2014, 03:36 AM
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As far as I remember the AVCHD 2.0 output by Edius is also limited in the data rate - as you write with 28 mbps. But that is a multistream option and not an mvc output - means that the higher datarate compared to Vegas is necessary to compensate for two full streams, compared to mvc of Vegas. So I wonder if that is an advantage really.

But there is another main advantage - you can generate an AVCHD 2.0/3D output with 50i/60i - so you are not limited to render to 1080 24p/720 50p/60p as that is the case for the mvc based 3D-Blu-ray. So here one wins some significant quality.

Maybe the PD12 is still the only one application that can generate multistream based AVCHD 2.0/3D discs - at least with some simple menus. That is something that we have discussed long time ago in the AVCHD 2.0 discussion here. I see no disadvantages here - beside the fact that the player must be AVCHD 2.0/3D compliant. But that is not a huge issue really.

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post #72 of 144 Old 07-06-2014, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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As far as I remember the AVCHD 2.0 output by Edius is also limited in the data rate - as you write with 28 mbps. But that is a multistream option and not an mvc output - means that the higher datarate compared to Vegas is necessary to compensate for two full streams, compared to mvc of Vegas. So I wonder if that is an advantage really.

But there is another main advantage - you can generate an AVCHD 2.0/3D output with 50i/60i - so you are not limited to render to 1080 24p/720 50p/60p as that is the case for the mvc based 3D-Blu-ray. So here one wins some significant quality.

Maybe the PD12 is still the only one application that can generate multistream based AVCHD 2.0/3D discs - at least with some simple menus. That is something that we have discussed long time ago in the AVCHD 2.0 discussion here. I see no disadvantages here - beside the fact that the player must be AVCHD 2.0/3D compliant. But that is not a huge issue really.
That's the main bogie you must have a compliant bd player which a lot of people don't have, on the plus side you can import from td1 straight into pd 12 simple editing with 3d menus and apart from lower bit rate everything else is the same the options.In PD12 for avchd2.0 options are 1920x1080p x 24p or 50/60i, 1280x720 x50/60/24p, 1440x1080x50/60/24p or 50/60i and sd 720x 576/480 x50/60i
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post #73 of 144 Old 07-06-2014, 11:12 AM
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At 28 mbps, multiplexed AVCHD 2.0 L/R streams are 14 mbps each. At 24/25 mbps, MVC video is roughly 16 mbps for the primary stream and 8 mbps for the dependent right eye stream. So, it's really 14 vs 16 mbps, and AVCHD video at that data rate can look very good. Add in the fact that you don't compromise the frame rate (no 60i to 24p conversion to muck up the motion), and I wager the AVCHD 2.0 streams will still look significantly better if the encoding is good.

My problem in the past was that I had problems with 3D displays and players not being able to handle the AVCHD 2.0 "standard." I ran into compatibility issues, where the video on the disc wasn't read by the player or the resolution took a hit on the display. I gave up. I went back to my current workflow - edit in Edius, export L/R AVCHD 1080/60i files for Vegas, then let Vegas do the de-interlacing from 60i to 24p and create the Blu-ray 3D. The biggest benefit is that I don't have to worry about compatibility, because Vegas creates Blu-ray 3D discs that will play on virtually any Blu-ray 3D player.

These reports from shearer69 give me hope that I might have more success now. It's worth a try. If I run into the same old issues, I'm no worse off than before.

PS - it's generally assumed that AVCHD is roughly equivalent to MPEG2 encoding, but uses only half the data rate. So, a 14 mbps AVCHD stream should be about the same quality as a 28 mbps MPEG2 stream. Current broadcasts in the US use the ATSC standard, which is MPEG2 at about 20 mbps. If the full bandwidth is used (almost never anymore ), the quality is quite good. The point is that video can be encoded with lower bitrate AVCHD with excellent results, especially considering that encoding techniques have improved since the standard was released. Not having to worry about motion issues created by the 60i to 24p conversion step is a huge plus.

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post #74 of 144 Old 07-11-2014, 06:49 PM
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Hey, Barry,

Please send me your address via PM. I haven't been getting my PMs, because it's a personal setting you had to change with the new AVS format. I didn't do that until today.

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post #75 of 144 Old 07-12-2014, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
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That's the main bogie you must have a compliant bd player which a lot of people don't have, on the plus side you can import from td1 straight into pd 12 simple editing with 3d menus and apart from lower bit rate everything else is the same the options.In PD12 for avchd2.0 options are 1920x1080p x 24p or 50/60i, 1280x720 x50/60/24p, 1440x1080x50/60/24p or 50/60i and sd 720x 576/480 x50/60i
Sure, but the major disadvantage is that you have to use the pd to edit the footage. And compared to tools like Vegas or Edius the editing in the pd is still limited, especially with a more complex hardware setting as I have here (3 monitors, two graphic cards) - even if the software has some clear advantages on other aspects like good encoding, here AVCHD 2.0/3D and also on the authoring side.




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At 28 mbps, multiplexed AVCHD 2.0 L/R streams are 14 mbps each. At 24/25 mbps, MVC video is roughly 16 mbps for the primary stream and 8 mbps for the dependent right eye stream. So, it's really 14 vs 16 mbps, and AVCHD video at that data rate can look very good. Add in the fact that you don't compromise the frame rate (no 60i to 24p conversion to muck up the motion), and I wager the AVCHD 2.0 streams will still look significantly better if the encoding is good.
The major pitfall is that SCS has limited the data rate for the Sony AVC/MVC encoder - but that is an expensive technology, so I am happy that we have at least some stable and affordable MVC encoder. Compare that with other tools like Edius where we had an MVC encoder in the early testing days of 6.5 - and what was taken out again. Or compare that to Magix ProX where the Mainconcept MVC encoder made a lot of problems.

But fact is that the AVCHD 2.0 stream from Edius looks really great - since we have not to resize the picture or change the frame rate.

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post #76 of 144 Old 07-16-2014, 11:15 AM
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Just to put in my own 2 cents here, I use JVC TD1s and find that Power Director is perfect for my needs. It is generally stable and offers some good custom rendering options. I currently have set a custom option to render mp4s at 34mbps at 59.94fps. Also- and quite significant- is the fact that it works hand and hand with a supplemental program that Cyberlink sells called Color Director. It has a very robust tool set which rivals probably just about anything else out there. You can do your corrections in Color Director and export directly to Power Director. Color Director- at least for me- can be a bit unstable at times however, but not enough to be a deal breaker. I've been using it extensively over the last couple of weeks to enhance some underwater video I took last month in somewhat murky conditions. It really does a pretty good job. Here's a link to a just completed YouTube of moray eels.

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post #77 of 144 Old 07-17-2014, 11:35 AM
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That's a very cool video, Barry! I watched it on my 47" LG passive display in interleaved mode. The resolution looked very good, despite the murky conditions. Color was outstanding, especially compared to underwater footage I've seen from other sources. The eel looked like it was just a few inches from my face.

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post #78 of 144 Old 07-17-2014, 11:54 AM
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I'm going to play around with your video in Edius, Barry. I think some key-framed convergence correction would help keep the left-right divergence from becoming too great on bigger screens. I don't think I could handle the separation on my 110" projection screen when the eel comes closest to the lens. With a 47" screen, it's pushing the limits of what my eyes can deal with. You were using the Cyclopital3D 25mm lens adapter, right?

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post #79 of 144 Old 07-17-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
Just to put in my own 2 cents here, I use JVC TD1s and find that Power Director is perfect for my needs. It is generally stable and offers some good custom rendering options. I currently have set a custom option to render mp4s at 34mbps at 59.94fps. Also- and quite significant- is the fact that it works hand and hand with a supplemental program that Cyberlink sells called Color Director. It has a very robust tool set which rivals probably just about anything else out there. You can do your corrections in Color Director and export directly to Power Director. Color Director- at least for me- can be a bit unstable at times however, but not enough to be a deal breaker. I've been using it extensively over the last couple of weeks to enhance some underwater video I took last month in somewhat murky conditions. It really does a pretty good job. Here's a link to a just completed YouTube of moray eels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD9vk...1HSnaT3WocsH-g

Just watched this love it great clip.
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post #80 of 144 Old 07-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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I've seen commercial 3D videos that don't look nearly as good as Barry's underwater footage.

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post #81 of 144 Old 07-17-2014, 12:43 PM
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Thanks guys, much appreciated!
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post #82 of 144 Old 07-18-2014, 12:50 AM
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I'm going to play around with your video in Edius, Barry. I think some key-framed convergence correction would help keep the left-right divergence from becoming too great on bigger screens. I don't think I could handle the separation on my 110" projection screen when the eel comes closest to the lens. With a 47" screen, it's pushing the limits of what my eyes can deal with. You were using the Cyclopital3D 25mm lens adapter, right?
Joe,
Let me know how that works out in Edius. I don't think I have that capability with PD. The 1st scenes with the spotted morays were done using the Cyclopital 28mm. All others were with the standard lens. The green moray, at the end, was standard. I knew I would be pushing the envelope- and beyond- with convergences in this piece but was really going for the maximum pop-out effect. So far, I've only watched it on my 27" Asus monitor I use for editing. I haven't burned it to bluray yet to watch it on my 133" screen. Hope I can handle it!!
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post #83 of 144 Old 07-19-2014, 08:19 PM
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I tried watching Barry's youtube video on my Panasonic Plasma and for some reason it wouldn't recognize it as in 3D.
Couldn't switch the mode manually also. Not sure why as I can watch other 3D clips on youtube without issues..
Any suggestions?
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post #84 of 144 Old 07-21-2014, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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My Player packed in yesterday, went out and got a sony BDP-S4200 good player for £70 new. Made a full HD AVCH 2.0 3D 50i onto a SD card then transferred BDMV folder to rewritable DVD at UDF 2.50 with imgburn. Played back perfectly auto switched my TV 2 3D mode so I'm a happy chappy.
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post #85 of 144 Old 07-21-2014, 05:50 PM
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My Player packed in yesterday, went out and got a sony BDP-S4200 good player for £70 new. Made a full HD AVCH 2.0 3D 50i onto a SD card then transferred BDMV folder to rewritable DVD at UDF 2.50 with imgburn. Played back perfectly auto switched my TV 2 3D mode so I'm a happy chappy.
Excellent. You need to post some clips of your work. We'd love to see them.

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post #86 of 144 Old 07-22-2014, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Excellent. You need to post some clips of your work. We'd love to see them.
Here is a link for you just a quick test piece run off that I took to shop to try in the different players to make sure it played avchd 2.0 3D at 50i about 11mins at local park. https://www.dropbox.com/s/fuzknbkn22...gate%2050I.iso
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post #87 of 144 Old 07-22-2014, 09:56 AM
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Downloading now. Thanks for sharing.

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post #88 of 144 Old 07-22-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shearer69 View Post
Here is a link for you just a quick test piece run off that I took to shop to try in the different players to make sure it played avchd 2.0 3D at 50i about 11mins at local park. https://www.dropbox.com/s/fuzknbkn22...gate%2050I.iso
Thanks. I just burned this to a DVD-R disk hoping to use it as a test to see whether my Panasonic
player is capable of reading it. (DMP-BDT220). It played but only with sound.
Then I realized maybe the issue is because this is a PAL video sample and my player is NTSC.
Still waiting for my camcorder and I was eager to find out ...
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post #89 of 144 Old 07-22-2014, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by termite View Post
Thanks. I just burned this to a DVD-R disk hoping to use it as a test to see whether my Panasonic
player is capable of reading it. (DMP-BDT220). It played but only with sound.
Then I realized maybe the issue is because this is a PAL video sample and my player is NTSC.
Still waiting for my camcorder and I was eager to find out ...
It maybe that, but I doubt it as most players will play either as its a region coding stops play without multi-region, I can play either If you want can transcode the clip to NTSC 60i for you try, Does the manual of your player state it supports avchd 2.0

Last edited by shearer69; 07-22-2014 at 04:28 PM.
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post #90 of 144 Old 07-22-2014, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by termite View Post
Thanks. I just burned this to a DVD-R disk hoping to use it as a test to see whether my Panasonic
player is capable of reading it. (DMP-BDT220). It played but only with sound.
Then I realized maybe the issue is because this is a PAL video sample and my player is NTSC.
Still waiting for my camcorder and I was eager to find out ...
Just read your manual says plays avchd 3D but some only do it via usb here's an NSTC Link of same file.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/guyl24g52x...ate%20NTSC.iso

Last edited by shearer69; 07-22-2014 at 04:30 PM.
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