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post #1 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi after playing around with the gimmick DSG I got free with my LG 3D tv I have decided to get something a lot better. Looking in the second hand market and old stock sales as funds low being retired. Needs to do a reasonable job for say countryside walks, seaside visits family get togethers nothing in professional line. Have seen choice between JVC GS-TD1, and Sony HDR-TD10 / TD20, the JVC being the cheapest does that mean best bang for money as its brand new and almost half the price of other two. Any suggestions from users of either cam or someone with experiences of all three or other models to consider. Editing wise I have power director 12, Vegas Pro 12 with dvdarchitect etc, Corel and Pinnacle studios and corel 3Dmotion.
Thanks in advance for any help in deciding
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post #2 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 07:11 AM
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The JVC footage cannot be edited in Vegas Pro 12 - so from that side the TD10/20 will be the better choice.

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post #3 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought you could by splitting mvc to left and right images for full hd or avchd for squished sbs both of which could then be imported to vegas, PD 12 makes mvc mts and vegas sees those as 3d file, I maybe wrong and they not true mvc but of made 3d from my dsg in pd12 and exported from folder mvc mts to vegas and made bluray 3d disc which auto switches my LG in 3d mode and plays, but quality nowhere near what jvc or sony will be like.
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post #4 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 12:42 PM
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Yes, you can shoot footage in sbs mode with the JVC TD1 and edit that immediately in Vegas. Or, you can use PD to convert the JVC's MVC files to 3D m2ts files that can be edited in Vegas. There's also a Pixela utility that lets you convert JVC 3D MVC to left/right files, which can then be paired as 3D stereoscopic in Vegas and edited normally. SbS mode in the JVC is decent, but if you're not put off by the extra conversion step, preparing JVC MVC files to work in Vegas isn't that tough. The TD1 is a great little camera, with tons of features. It creates images of outstanding quality, especially if you shoot in the highest bitrate MVC mode (34mbps).

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post #5 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, you can shoot footage in sbs mode with the JVC TD1 and edit that immediately in Vegas. Or, you can use PD to convert the JVC's MVC files to 3D m2ts files that can be edited in Vegas. There's also a Pixela utility that lets you convert JVC 3D MVC to left/right files, which can then be paired as 3D stereoscopic in Vegas and edited normally. SbS mode in the JVC is decent, but if you're not put off by the extra conversion step, preparing JVC MVC files to work in Vegas isn't that tough. The TD1 is a great little camera, with tons of features. It creates images of outstanding quality, especially if you shoot in the highest bitrate MVC mode (34mbps).

That's fine I don't mind having to fiddle with an assortment of editors to get final production onto 3db discs as most of my home movies etc probably 1hr long on average and have a load of 25gb bdre to test with before burning to a bdr. Its really a case of which camera the jvc or one of the sony's is the best bet to use regards quality video, ease of use battery life etc. What sort of price I should be paying for these as they are about 3yr old models I believe.
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post #6 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 04:30 PM
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That's fine I don't mind having to fiddle with an assortment of editors to get final production onto 3db discs as most of my home movies etc probably 1hr long on average and have a load of 25gb bdre to test with before burning to a bdr. Its really a case of which camera the jvc or one of the sony's is the best bet to use regards quality video, ease of use battery life etc. What sort of price I should be paying for these as they are about 3yr old models I believe.

I can't comment on price - have no idea. The JVCs are no longer being made, but as far as I'm concerned, they're as rugged as any gear I've ever owned. I've logged many hundreds of hours on my original TD1, in conditions varying from 19 degrees and snowing, to 105 degrees and high humidity, for hours on end. There was never a glitch through any of this. Buying used shouldn't be a problem. Just be sure to inspect it for the defect which makes one image less sharp than the other - should be the first thing you check for. A few of the JVC TD1s (and Sony TD10s) had this problem. Personally, I've always favored the image quality of the JVC over the Sony, but of course YMMV. The JVC has a wide range of manual, automatic and semi-automatic controls which make it quite flexible. And the auto controls work very well in general. Setting convergence manually or automatically takes just a few seconds. Battery life is exceptional with the larger batteries. The smaller one that comes with the unit is OK, but not great.

The one issue you may not have thought about yet is the conversion of 1080/60i 3D video to 1920x1080/24p 3D for burning to standard Blu-ray 3D. There's been a lot of talk about it here, but we can recap if it's something you want to discuss. One way to avoid the problems such conversion creates is to get a JVC HMZ1, which is a pro version of the TD1 that also shoots at 24p. Shooting native 24p skirts the conversion issue, and the HMZ1 can sometimes be found for not much more than the TD1. It's a no brainer if you can find it. You may still choose to shoot at 60i, but you have the choice if you want or need to be able to shoot at 24p.

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post #7 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't comment on price - have no idea. The JVCs are no longer being made, but as far as I'm concerned, they're as rugged as any gear I've ever owned. I've logged many hundreds of hours on my original TD1, in conditions varying from 19 degrees and snowing, to 105 degrees and high humidity, for hours on end. There was never a glitch through any of this. Buying used shouldn't be a problem. Just be sure to inspect it for the defect which makes one image less sharp than the other - should be the first thing you check for. A few of the JVC TD1s (and Sony TD10s) had this problem. Personally, I've always favored the image quality of the JVC over the Sony, but of course YMMV. The JVC has a wide range of manual, automatic and semi-automatic controls which make it quite flexible. And the auto controls work very well in general. Setting convergence manually or automatically takes just a few seconds. Battery life is exceptional with the larger batteries. The smaller one that comes with the unit is OK, but not great.

The one issue you may not have thought about yet is the conversion of 1080/60i 3D video to 1920x1080/24p 3D for burning to standard Blu-ray 3D. There's been a lot of talk about it here, but we can recap if it's something you want to discuss. One way to avoid the problems such conversion creates is to get a JVC HMZ1, which is a pro version of the TD1 that also shoots at 24p. Shooting native 24p skirts the conversion issue, and the HMZ1 can sometimes be found for not much more than the TD1. It's a no brainer if you can find it. You may still choose to shoot at 60i, but you have the choice if you want or need to be able to shoot at 24p.

I'm in Uk so will probably be getting a pal vversion, though I know my viewing equipment tv and BD player will play either, hope to get something along these lines.
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post #8 of 95 Old 06-07-2014, 11:04 PM
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I love the little Panasonic 3D1 for family stuff. It's a flat little 3D camcorder that does a nice job and has 3D stills. Whenever we have a visit with family, I toss that one in my pocket because it doesn't require any special effort to carry along. Has 5:1 zoom too. Video is SBS.

Still sold new for $289 in US. Was new for $549
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMC-3D1-Camera-3-5-Inch-Screen/dp/B0063CZ8OM/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1402207184&sr=1-1&keywords=panasonic+3d1

If you do find a TD10 or 20 for good used price having that for more serious productions will not obsolete the benefits of the 3D1 as a second pocket camera..
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post #9 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I love the little Panasonic 3D1 for family stuff. It's a flat little 3D camcorder that does a nice job and has 3D stills. Whenever we have a visit with family, I toss that one in my pocket because it doesn't require any special effort to carry along. Has 5:1 zoom too. Video is SBS.

Still sold new for $289 in US. Was new for $549
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMC-3D1-Camera-3-5-Inch-Screen/dp/B0063CZ8OM/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1402207184&sr=1-1&keywords=panasonic+3d1

If you do find a TD10 or 20 for good used price having that for more serious productions will not obsolete the benefits of the 3D1 as a second pocket camera..

Would you recommend the td10/20 over the GS-TD1 and is the TD10 better or worse than the TD20 seeing you're listed as a pro 3D stereographer your knowledge greatly appreciated.
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post #10 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Here in the uk these camcorders are between about £500 and £600 new. which about my financial limit at the moment
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post #11 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 06:09 AM
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I use the TD10. But I believe the TD20 shoots just as good, maybe better for home use because it is smaller making it even easier to tote around in a crowded theme park. The JVC, IMO, has a couple disadvantages which makes it a "never own" in my kit. First, as Joe explained, it requires you to take extra steps to begin editing due to it's files not being compatible with your best editing tool, Sony Vegas Pro. It offers no 5.1 audio which I personally like. The OIS is not as good as the Sony technology. The advantage is that the JVC does have a higher bit rate mode in it's saved camera files which you may or may not see in your final output. However, the camera video will need color adjustment as it seems all agree it tends to have red push adding a warmer look. I think it reproduces greens and yellows better than the Sony however.

In the end, you'll have to decide what is important to you as both JVC and Sony will produce great looking video.

When it comes to support, you should also recognize that Sony supports the complete 3D package from consumer to broadcast, from consumer editing tools to Hollywood editing tools, consumer 3D camcorders to broadcast. JVC only made those two camcorders and they are not directly compatible with Sony Post products. Panasonic is directly compatible but only makes consumer to Broadcast level 3D camcorders all supported by Sony editing products. Don't expect much support from JVC after they discontinued the product. Probably the best support you'll get is from Joe Clark here on AVS. Example- At trade shows, JVC, nobody can even talk 3D. At Panasonic, they have a couple of engineers to show and demo their 3D camcorder lineup. At Sony that have a whole team who knows 3D and offer free training classes in 3D editing, both group sessions and open one on one work stations to help you with specific issues.

I'm retired, I shoot 3D for fun and hobby!
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post #12 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I use the TD10. But I believe the TD20 shoots just as good, maybe better for home use because it is smaller making it even easier to tote around in a crowded theme park. The JVC, IMO, has a couple disadvantages which makes it a "never own" in my kit. First, as Joe explained, it requires you to take extra steps to begin editing due to it's files not being compatible with your best editing tool, Sony Vegas Pro. It offers no 5.1 audio which I personally like. The OIS is not as good as the Sony technology. The advantage is that the JVC does have a higher bit rate mode in it's saved camera files which you may or may not see in your final output. However, the camera video will need color adjustment as it seems all agree it tends to have red push adding a warmer look. I think it reproduces greens and yellows better than the Sony however.

In the end, you'll have to decide what is important to you as both JVC and Sony will produce great looking video.

When it comes to support, you should also recognize that Sony supports the complete 3D package from consumer to broadcast, from consumer editing tools to Hollywood editing tools, consumer 3D camcorders to broadcast. JVC only made those two camcorders and they are not directly compatible with Sony Post products. Panasonic is directly compatible but only makes consumer to Broadcast level 3D camcorders all supported by Sony editing products. Don't expect much support from JVC after they discontinued the product. Probably the best support you'll get is from Joe Clark here on AVS. Example- At trade shows, JVC, nobody can even talk 3D. At Panasonic, they have a couple of engineers to show and demo their 3D camcorder lineup. At Sony that have a whole team who knows 3D and offer free training classes in 3D editing, both group sessions and open one on one work stations to help you with specific issues.

I'm retired, I shoot 3D for fun and hobby!

I prefer 5.1 sound as I have that with my av rig. Sony is the way to go then, just got to decide which one as around £600 I get get any model TD10/20 or 30. Size or weight won't be a problem to me. I have a couple of good tripods if need for steadier shooting an panning should it be need. Its basicly which is the best buy of the three and whats the pros and cons difference between so any views from users who have used all three of them would help me decide as the sellers aren't close to compare myself or get demo.
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post #13 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 12:57 PM
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In order of features and best to worst:

1. TD20
2. TD10
3. TD30

TD30 is a cut down version of the 20 and has no internal memory. Try to get a 20 even if you find it for a few bucks more.
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post #14 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 01:25 PM
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Those are all good points, Don. The biggest negative for me is that Vegas doesn't support native JVC 3D files. That's a big deal for me. Fortunately, Edius does, but to burn to Blu-ray 3D disc at the highest quality available (at the "AVS level" anyway) you still have to finalize in Vegas. That makes the workflow more complicated, and for someone just getting into 3D that's probably not something they want. 5.1 sound (during acquisition, not final output) and the Sony video eco-system are not important to me in day to day work.

All that said (and from the sample footage I've reviewed), I still prefer the image quality of the JVCs over the Sonys. Also, the JVC HMZ1 shoots at 24p and may be found for less than the consumer Sony 3D cameras. So, in terms of image quality, flexibility, reliability and cost effectiveness, I still have no trouble recommending the JVC to many new users, and thus to the original poster (who has budget concerns and says he's willing to use different editors). Given the quality of footage I've been able to record with my TD1, I have no regrets that I jumped at the JVC in 2011. Had the Sony TD10 come out first, before the JVC, I would have bought one. I didn't (and still don't) mind being on the bleeding edge. biggrin.gif The lack of support in Vegas caused me some anxiety in the "early days." But today, way down deep, I'm glad things happened the way they did. I like the image quality of the JVCs that much. Based on my experience using them (and given that my teaching background in video production makes me an atypical user), I still wouldn't trade my TD1 or HMZ1 for one of the comparable Sonys. I agree the Sonys are an easier recommendation for many users, but there are significant rewards in owning the JVCs that some users will appreciate.

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post #15 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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well my choice in uk is down to a jvc GS-td1 @ £526 or a Sony TD10 @ £490 can't find other jvc hmz and only td20 were Japanese language. I have downloaded don's seaworld took with TD10 and some other clips with same camera and some JVC ones will run onto rewritable bluray and view them, and take into conceration the loss from youtube to original footage.
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post #16 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 02:25 PM
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shearer69,

I'm not pushing the JVCs. You should make the decision based on your budget and needs. The lack of direct support in Vegas for the JVC clips may or may not make a big difference. If Vegas were my only editor, it would be a very big deal for me and would sway me toward the Sony. I based my comments on yours. IMO, the easiest thing for you to do is buy the Sony, start shooting and edit in Vegas. You probably won't be unhappy with that choice. The JVC might make your 3D life more complicated. The JVC may be a better choice for some users, but you have to figure out what's best for you.

I wouldn't count on being able to filter out the YouTube image degradation issue when making a decision. It's the great equalizer, or destroyer, if you want to look at it that way. smile.gif

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post #17 of 95 Old 06-08-2014, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I think sony is better regarding warranty and backup service and there is a sony centre near me, I can afford either its just debating which to plump for the td10 is unopened and sealed with 1yr warranty with offers to extend it, don't now about jvc needs further looking into as to wether its new or ex display etc. and what warranty it has, but reading other threads it seems 50-50 depending wether you prefer warm or cooler looking colours. maybe after a few days more responders of either camera will give their views, but seems I'll get one or the other, there seems more td10 available and new if I later wanted a pair or get jvc first as they scarcer and if not happy resell or just get a sony later on.
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post #18 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 03:31 AM
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You will get a better Idea of picture quality from a video posted by bergj69 on the TD 10 or Vegas 13 forum a few weeks ago as its full HD blu - ray quality. I have a Pal TD30 and I love it. Youtube kills the quality big time!!! Check my Videos on youtube just search 256daddycool. ;0)
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post #19 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 03:41 AM
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I also have a seaworld video uploaded if you want to compare it with Don's NTSC TD10
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post #20 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 07:33 AM
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With respect to You Tube, the quality difference also is based on how you render the video for your 1080p project. Generally, it will need to be SBS half, so that right away causes a 50% resolution issue. Then we have the codec used. All my YT videos were rendered with either WMV or MP4 SBS Half. I generally used the bit rate default in the Vegas Pro Render AS settings. I know some stereographers who have posted claims using much higher bit rates and even uncompressed uploads for YT content and claim while it greatly increases the upload and process time, the results are superior. Point being, don't expect to use You Tube to compare cameras since you won't know what the render settings were. At least with an iso file you know the standard Blu Ray render process was followed which is pretty standard unless someone has access to the commercial encoders, highly unlikely. These Blu Ray standards I refer to are very similar with Vegas Pro, Studio, Power Director. But these renderings can't be used for You Tube.


I think as far as YouTube is concerned, it might be interesting to see how those of us have rendered for uploads to YT. Maybe I'm not doing it the best way. A separate thread on 3D You Tube discussion might be very educational.
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post #21 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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With respect to You Tube, the quality difference also is based on how you render the video for your 1080p project. Generally, it will need to be SBS half, so that right away causes a 50% resolution issue. Then we have the codec used. All my YT videos were rendered with either WMV or MP4 SBS Half. I generally used the bit rate default in the Vegas Pro Render AS settings. I know some stereographers who have posted claims using much higher bit rates and even uncompressed uploads for YT content and claim while it greatly increases the upload and process time, the results are superior. Point being, don't expect to use You Tube to compare cameras since you won't know what the render settings were. At least with an iso file you know the standard Blu Ray render process was followed which is pretty standard unless someone has access to the commercial encoders, highly unlikely. These Blu Ray standards I refer to are very similar with Vegas Pro, Studio, Power Director. But these renderings can't be used for You Tube.


I think as far as YouTube is concerned, it might be interesting to see how those of us have rendered for uploads to YT. Maybe I'm not doing it the best way. A separate thread on 3D You Tube discussion might be very educational.

Well I have finally took the plunge and bought a Sony HDR-TD20 brand new for £525 including postage, so eagerly awaiting delivery so I can get cracking learning all about it, I doubt I need updating vegas pro suite as v12 does fine on my PC. Ivybridge I7 3770k, 16g ram and Nvidia 2gb 760, thanks to all but as everyone says final choice is mine and price wise this was best value. Just need practice with it before my holidays in August.
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post #22 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 08:02 AM
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I use best quality 2 pass Sony avc to m2ts HSBS bit rate is max 22000 on movie studio. I tried wmv but was lower quality to me.
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post #23 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Didn't realise different versions existed TD20E and TD20VE mines going to be a TD20E and doesn't have GPS not that I'd use that facility but does store more video on board about 20 -30 mins and its lighter apparently.
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post #24 of 95 Old 06-09-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Those are all good points, Don. The biggest negative for me is that Vegas doesn't support native JVC 3D files. That's a big deal for me. Fortunately, Edius does, but to burn to Blu-ray 3D disc at the highest quality available (at the "AVS level" anyway) you still have to finalize in Vegas. That makes the workflow more complicated, and for someone just getting into 3D that's probably not something they want. 5.1 sound (during acquisition, not final output) and the Sony video eco-system are not important to me in day to day work.

All that said (and from the sample footage I've reviewed), I still prefer the image quality of the JVCs over the Sonys. Also, the JVC HMZ1 shoots at 24p and may be found for less than the consumer Sony 3D cameras. So, in terms of image quality, flexibility, reliability and cost effectiveness, I still have no trouble recommending the JVC to many new users, and thus to the original poster (who has budget concerns and says he's willing to use different editors). Given the quality of footage I've been able to record with my TD1, I have no regrets that I jumped at the JVC in 2011. Had the Sony TD10 come out first, before the JVC, I would have bought one. I didn't (and still don't) mind being on the bleeding edge. biggrin.gif The lack of support in Vegas caused me some anxiety in the "early days." But today, way down deep, I'm glad things happened the way they did. I like the image quality of the JVCs that much. Based on my experience using them (and given that my teaching background in video production makes me an atypical user), I still wouldn't trade my TD1 or HMZ1 for one of the comparable Sonys. I agree the Sonys are an easier recommendation for many users, but there are significant rewards in owning the JVCs that some users will appreciate.

I found a jvc hmz1 for sale but price was £1200 tooooooooo much for me
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post #25 of 95 Old 06-12-2014, 10:27 AM
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I saw several of our traditional 3D camcorders on sale in Amazon. TD10, 20 and 30 are all going for near list price but available. The JVC TD1 was offered for $788 and the Panasonic 3D1 for $268. The Z10k was $2672. I got an email with these camcorders featured. Probably because I'm on the 3D list.
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post #26 of 95 Old 06-13-2014, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I saw several of our traditional 3D camcorders on sale in Amazon. TD10, 20 and 30 are all going for near list price but available. The JVC TD1 was offered for $788 and the Panasonic 3D1 for $268. The Z10k was $2672. I got an email with these camcorders featured. Probably because I'm on the 3D list.

Good pricing but not on this side of the pond. Looking forward to the arrival of my TD20E, also require pal over here though my own gear plays either friends and family may not then there would be extra hassle of converting ntsc to pal. If it were not for bit rates pal a better system than NTSC (never the same colour twice) that's we call it over year when I used to repair TV and Video machines etc. Been trying out powerdirector 12 good but what a hassel to make custom menus even nero menu system easier to alter pity sony dvdarchitect didn't do 3D menus. or allow menu import say from photoshop/after effects or similar. there doesn't seem to be a program other than pd12 without spending a fortune that authors 3D with 3D menu.
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post #27 of 95 Old 06-14-2014, 12:36 PM
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Don't worry NTSC is long gone here in the US too. We use ATSC now.

The big issue is the frame rate difference. PAL is 25 FPS and ATSC is 24FPS FILM conversion Or 50 FPS vs. 30 FPS for TV etc.
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post #28 of 95 Old 06-14-2014, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't worry NTSC is long gone here in the US too. We use ATSC now.

The big issue is the frame rate difference. PAL is 25 FPS and ATSC is 24FPS FILM conversion Or 50 FPS vs. 30 FPS for TV etc.

I agree but it's also the consortiums as well as they can't decide on a completely universal rates, dvd not so bad but bluray standards and cameras etc would help if the ran all format an old jvc camcorder I used to have could record in either pal or ntsc. Most TV play either as do players like all region switch, no reason either format can't have same rates, all cams able to do 24p across all models, that's just greed by makers. My 2d Panasonic can switch to either and 24p.
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post #29 of 95 Old 06-14-2014, 09:05 PM
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I think a PAL and ATSC frame rate combo cam would be of little use to most buyers. I know I would never use a PAL frame rate here. You still propose NTSC/ added. Here in the US the format has been replaced with all digital video. NTSC is just not used. There are some small production houses using betacam SP still but they have to convert to digital early on to be compatible with the present day requirements.

Come to think of it, we DO HAVE an analog output on our camcorders with a special cable for Y/C-A or A/Vcomposite analog stereo using special cable adapters. So we do have modern ATSC with analog NTSC output. You could feed this to your VHS tape recorder and have video just like the old days.
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post #30 of 95 Old 06-18-2014, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I didn't get the sony I ordered the company was a rip off pleased I used c/card to safe guard payment. So I managed to order a JVC GS-TD1 complete with bag and memory cards etc from amazon uk with guaranteed delivery tomorrow. as sony prices exorbitant over here, but thanks all for help and views.
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