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post #1 of 52 Old 08-19-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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how to sync video in Vegas from two cameras for stereo

I'm using two gopro-like cameras for stereo.Vegas will create a sub clip in stereo from the two files but they are off by several frames. What is best way to sync them? I tried trimming the files but still didnt work. Thanks.
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post #2 of 52 Old 08-20-2014, 08:22 AM
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I follow a sync procedure that begins with the shoot. But first you absolutely must have two identical cameras with identical lenses and shooting identical frame rates. None of that 1080i60 on one with 1080p60 on the other. Or, 1080i non drop frame with 1080i drop frame on the other. Everything must match up!

So when you shoot, start both cameras rolling video and then get in front of both cameras and clap board the start. Use a clap board that you can see a moment in time when the boards come together and hear a recorded sound "clap!" Other tools used are a strobe flashed, and I have even used just a sound by clapping my hands together. I also do the clap board routine at the end of the shoot before pausing the video recording as a safety check to be sure both are still in sync.

Next in post, put your two clips on the timelines one above the other and line up the wave form of the audio tracks. Be sure you have "quantize to frames" checked. Don't worry if on is louder than the other, it's the timing that you need. After they are really close as you can get them play the timeline and listen for an echoslide one clip in reference to the other to get the echo to disappear. Now you are in sync. I usually trim off the excess of one or the other clips so both are the same length. Also check the tail of the clip. If the heads are in sync and the tails are out, you have a problem that one camera didn't record properly and you will need to hunt down where they went out. After you find that trouble spot, you can split the clips making two on each. After the clips are lined up you can now proceed to pair them with the 3D stereo effect.

Limitations- Understand that since you cannot sync your cameras' timing oscillators in genlock, you will not be able to sync closer than the timing of your frame rate. That is 1/60 of a second for video shot at 1080p60 or 1/24 of a second for video shot at 1080p24. To get timing closer you will need genlock cameras like are used in broadcast work. As long as your video is not trying to capture high speed motion the image will be close enough for amateur work and 3D will be good. That is, the slower the action in 3D shooting with non genlocked cameras the sharper your 3D will appear. As you shoot higher speed action, the blurrier the action will look.

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post #3 of 52 Old 08-20-2014, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Don. I'm taking some action video this next week on vacation. I've rigged a bar with the two cameras that are in waterproof cases, and I will mount to my jet ski. Because of the action, aligning will be tough, but splitting the video into smaller aligned clips is probably the answer. I will try to get some video posted after Labor Day. Again, thanks, this really helps. This is going to either be a lot of fun, or a real frustrating bust .
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post #4 of 52 Old 08-20-2014, 02:32 PM
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Learn from those that have suffered through the failures.

If will have subject material in the foreground within 10 ft from the lens, try to keep your lenses no wider than 65mm IA. Better even at 40mm. This has always been a problem shooting 3D of close up subjects. Of course the saving grace on this is to use wider angle lenses which will help push the close subjects farther away. You didn't say what lenses you are using. You just said "gopro like" If like the Gopro I bought the lens is quite wide.

Actually, you will not have a problem lining up long clips and then pairing the two. This will be easier than working with lots of smaller clips and there is no sync advantage to either. If your cameras support it, you will be better off shooting as high a frame rate as you can. try to use 1080 60p. Once you edit in that frame rate you can always render at 24 fps or 30i for presentation and you'll have the best you can get without going to the genlock system.

I have had good success of frame accurate sync on clips running for as long as 45 minutes and it holds accurate. Once you pair you can slice and dice for your editing.

If you had in mind of doing slomo, the slomo will probably go soft due to intra frame sync problems, but this can only be resolved by using the genlock system. Even the LANC sync devices can't resolve lack of genlock. All they do if start the local oscillators in the camera about the same time and then some will give you a readout how far out the two are. The genlock will have both cameras running on the same oscillator so the timing is perfectly matched.


FYI- the main disadvantage of shooting at 1080 60p vs. 24p (which is what you'll want for Blu Ray compatibility) is that the editing requires a much faster computer than working with the slower, smaller files. I rarely use this mode for non action shooting for this reason.
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post #5 of 52 Old 08-20-2014, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again, Don. Unfortunately, my cameras only do 1080/30p. But the video still looks good.
This is the camera I got (2 of them): http://www.nabitablet.com/nabicamera

Woot had a special going for $50 a camera (all sold out now, though), including all the accessories. Couldn't pass it up. And all of the Gopro mounts work with it. I thought this would be a great way to try out action 3D with waterproof cameras without spending the big bucks for 2 Gopros. The video won't be as good, but I will have at least conquered the learning curve before I spend any more.


I'm retired and still love this stuff--yah, I know--grow up!
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post #6 of 52 Old 08-21-2014, 12:27 AM
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Wow! that sure is a GoPro knockoff. They claim it uses a 175° angle lens which is incredibly wide. Only lens I've ever seen do that wide would be a circle in the middle of the frame. I found some review You Tube live of what it shoots and I would say it is more like 75°, not 175° But even 75 is quite wide.

Anyway, you should be able to mount the two side by side to a bar of aluminum. Make sure the cameras are aligned vertically as accurately as you can.

You sure did get a good deal.
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post #7 of 52 Old 08-21-2014, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree, I think the wide angle is more like 75 degrees--actually wide enough with reduced distortion. I have a bar and a suction cup holder for my jet ski, but might rig up an aluminum rod sticking out of the rope hole in front to get a much clearer front view of the rider, we will see. Well, if anything, I should get some good 2D footage if not 3D.
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post #8 of 52 Old 08-21-2014, 03:25 PM
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If you don't use a spud mount like the surfers use, then be sure to attach a safety lanyard as a backup in case the suction cup comes off.
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post #9 of 52 Old 09-04-2014, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I finally had a chance to hook up my two Nabi cameras to my jet ski last week. I made a spud mount of sorts out of aluminum square tubing with braces on corners and a base to put a bolt through the rope tie hole in the front and a twin camera mount with camera bolt screws I got off of Amazon for cheap. The camera cases have a camera screw mount on the bottom, which made them very easy to quick-mount. Getting them mounted perpendicular to the boat was a slight issue, but not noticeable in the end result stereo videos, which I'm still working on. The quality if very good--much better than I expected, considering both cameras had to have the video started separately with no sync, the video turned out to easily align. The cameras have a wake up feature, so you start them with that feature, put them into the plastic cases, them wake them up when you start shooting--couldn't be easier. I hope to get the video loaded to youtube tomorrow. Note that I separated the two cameras to eye-width, and that appeared to work very well.


More to come..
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post #10 of 52 Old 09-05-2014, 07:53 AM
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Looks good!

If you have a problem with sideways movement, you could use guy wires from the top angle bracket to both the port and starboard bow that would stabilize that swing. Been many years since I was on a jet ski so I don't recall how much vibration there is. The distance to your head in the seat and the inter axial distance between the lenses may pull your face way in front of the screen. You can try to push that back for a more natural look in Vegas with the Horizontal slider in stereoscopic adjustment, but that may cause some ghosting. That's why close in foreground stuff can be difficult to handle with wide IA's. The savior here may be the wide angle lens on the camera. The wider the angle the more forgiving the IA is to pulling into the foreground. Hope all that makes sense. The more you gain experience with 3D the more you will be able to predict the exaggerated look in stereo.
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post #11 of 52 Old 09-06-2014, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally got the two videos loaded into Sony Movie Studio. The sync-up was easy, since the frames matched up perfectly first time. I did have to do some alignment, vertical and rotational. I set the window on myself, so the front of the jetski sticks out in your face. I made an SBS copy of part of the video and uploaded to youtube. I must say, the youtube version has a lot more vertical judder than the original, although I was on rough water. The cameras appear to have stabilization, which I can see in the original videos. I was totally wowed by the originals being these cameras only cost $50 each. The stills have more wide angle than the videos, and the distortion seems less than the gopros. I would say the video is definitely on par with the current gopros except for the Hero3+ black version. You can also see in the SBS video, that one camera has a colder white balance than the other.


This was a quick effort. I'm going to do a complete redo to correct some rotational alignment that is still there and push the window back to get more stereo effect in the distance.


Make sure you chose 1080pHD and full color Anaglyph or whatever. The Dubois Anaglyph looks very flat to me. You can hear the sound of the engine, but there is also a clicking sound that I can't quite figure out.



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post #12 of 52 Old 09-06-2014, 08:47 PM
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If the cameras use image stabilization, you need to shot that off since they will stabilize individually and that will throw things off between the left and right cameras. IS works on most single 3D cameras but not on twin cameras. Color correct the right camera, it is way too red, unnaturally.

I liked the 3D placement. For that setup it looked perfect and there was no ghosting I saw.

I think you have a really good setup, near perfect with a few tweaks but the mechanical mount looks good with enough bounce to add realism to the ride

Only thing missing are the beautiful girls. .
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post #13 of 52 Old 09-07-2014, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I share the sentiment of your last comment--.

After looking at the documentation, it doesn't appear that the videos do have IS, but what I might be seeing is a rolling shutter stretch in some of the scenes. As for the reddish tint. Any suggestions on how I color correct just the right eye without having to process that video first, then trying to match them up? I think I will lose something in the process. Can I do that somehow in the 3D subclip?

I was surprised that the sideways sway of the bar holding the cameras did not take away from the image and added more realism. I did do a run with the cameras turned forward, so I'm going to try and splice that in with the footage to get even more realism.
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post #14 of 52 Old 09-07-2014, 10:21 PM
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Color correction:

First try to get your cameras matched using whatever tools they offer. Start by not using auto white balance. Instead set both cameras to outdoor, or color temperature of 5600k or higher but do the same in each camera. Use 5600 k for bright sunny sky at high noon and 7200k for overcast cloudy sky. It is highly unlikely those cameras offer that level of adjustment. Usually they will offer manual white where you can set to outdoor.

If the colors still do not match, you can color correct in Vegas using color adjustment tool effect. Then apply to that track or apply to that clip. If you have already paired and adjusted the clips, you can apply the same color adjustment effect tool to the paired clip, but this time look at the top of the color adjust screen and you will see two check marks, here you can remove one check mark so your color correction affects only the other original video clip that is checked. You can even do a split screen on your preview monitor to help match the colors between each. Now you can do a final render to output format.
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post #15 of 52 Old 09-07-2014, 10:27 PM
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So you understand what may have happened in your color problem, one camera may have been set to indoor color temperature while the other was in auto white while the camera happen to see some invading bad light that caused the auto white to make a radical adjustment.
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post #16 of 52 Old 09-08-2014, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I read through all the docs and the camera is all automatic, so no white balance selector. I will try the method above to change just the right eye. Thanks. The cameras work well beyond my expectation given the price. They also have a timelapse function, but not sure how well that would work for stereo. It takes individual pictures and they would need to be stacked into video frames and syncing the images would almost be impossible. I know the gopro software does that, so I will fool around with it. As for the jetski, the summer is over, so no more videos from it until next year.
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post #17 of 52 Old 09-11-2014, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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This one is from an earlier shoot when the sun was shining at low angle. You can see the lens flare and a weird vertical line every now and then when the sun gets into the lens. Tough to avoid the sun when you are spinning around the lake though.

I took footage with the cameras facing forward and spliced that in (you'll note the difference in the clock times). Watching tilting images without a stable reference causes motion sickness to me, so be prepared. There is also a lot of jiggle in this, and it appears I'm about a half-frame off in the syncing of the images. I tried to adjust the color, but the two cameras have slightly different auto white balance issues, so I guess I will have to live with that. I also added more separation and depth. (And ignore the stupid grin on my face ).


My next venture will be a stop motion time lapse--should see it here in about two weeks.

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post #18 of 52 Old 09-15-2014, 02:31 PM
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3DBob-

I'm joining your ranks in the Nabi Platoon.

I was so impressed with your results with those Nabi underwater cameras, I went ahead and ordered a pair. I did get a water proof bag for my Panasonic 3D1 but the Nabi has a better lens for underwater and I am a little worried about using a "bag" underwater. It's OK for a splash protection but I plan to use the Nabi for snorkeling mostly.
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post #19 of 52 Old 09-15-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Don, I recommend you get some fog absorbers to put inside the cases when underwater. I did in mine and it greatly helped. What happens is you might be working in a high humidity environment before you encase the cameras, and then when they go into cool water or out into the cool air--fog on the lens cover. This happened to me once, and since I've used the fog absorbers, never happened again. http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Fog-Inser...water+absorber


Also, you can get floaties for cheap and put on the backs with Velcro, but it does hide the LCD screen somewhat unless you get creative. The slide bar with two cameras should be useable underwater with a camera handle.


I don't think I've had this much fun since I received my first role of mounted Realist slides in the 60s.

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post #20 of 52 Old 09-15-2014, 06:09 PM
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Thanks for the suggestion on the fog absorbent. I know all about that sort of thing. I used to build underwater camera housings. But there is an easier way to prevent the foging of the lens. Never assemble the camera in the housing in hot humid outdoor weather. Instead, assemble it in the dry air conditioned room and then there is no temperature difference when in the water that causes the condensate. Also, the cool room should be dry too, if not, I would blow the housing with a hair dryer as hot air is drier.

I bought the floating back for the GoPro but since he now has a permanent mount on the surfboard, he hasn't been using it. Those don't work well with the weight of the mount and in deep water they squeeze down and don't work anyway. A backup lanyard is better, IMO. I went to great lengths to make my underwater cameras neutral and properly balanced in sea water.

I did notice the lens system on the Nabi appears to be better than the GoPro for underwater. The close up pictures show it to be a dome ported lens which is superior to the flat ports. They give you better color saturation.
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post #21 of 52 Old 09-16-2014, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, the hair dryer is a good suggestion. I didn't have a way to avoid the humidity at the time--no AC.

I look forward to seeing some underwater footage soon and what else you do with the NABIs.
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post #22 of 52 Old 09-16-2014, 10:37 AM
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Not too much underwater stuff from me anymore. I don't dive these days. But I'm interested in having something for surface water shots plus the wide angle offered is always interesting to me. I can get down to 10mm with my NEX5n rig but this Nabi is rated for 2.5mm. I'm thinking of dry caving in Carlsbad Caverns or similar.

Bob- when you have the two Nabi's can you trigger both at the same time to record with the remote control? I couldn't tell from the research I did if that will work that way. What all can you control with the remote?
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post #23 of 52 Old 09-16-2014, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Bob- when you have the two Nabi's can you trigger both at the same time to record with the remote control? I couldn't tell from the research I did if that will work that way. What all can you control with the remote?

Each remote is apparently code-keyed to one camera as far as I can see. There is a process for coding the remote to a camera, but when I tried coding one remote to both cameras, it wouldn't work. Would have been a great feature. The remote starts and stops video and also takes single shots--that's it. The cameras have a standby mode and the remote can wake the camera up--so can pushing a button on the water-tight case. They also have a continuous shutter control that goes from 2 to 30 seconds for time lapse photos. You can also zoom in in picture mode, but not video mode. It took me a while to get used to all the features, and you need the LCD attached to make changes. There is also an attachment for the camera to be used outside of the underwater case with a gopro-like adaptor. Video does 1080/30p and some other reduced resolution modes, and is surprisingly good video--produces .mov files only, though. PM me and I can email you the PDF manual. I tried attaching here, but too big.

Also has a VOX mode for sound activation and recording--haven't tried it yet, though.
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post #24 of 52 Old 09-16-2014, 03:34 PM
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That's good info for now. The first one should arrive tomorrow so no need to email the manual. I understand it is on a CD in the box. I picked up both for $82ea. including shipping but from two different sources. Quite a savings compared to what I paid for the Hero 3 for my soninlaw. It is supposed to come with a 4Gb micro SD card too.

BTW- last evening I tried to watch your videos in my HT on the projector but I could not get the link to work. You must have the videos set to "private" I found your YT channel but it said no videos published. I don't have a 3D computer in my HT so I need to use a You Tube app from my WDTV Live and it doesn't allow the URL access. Only your channel and videos by name if public in the search entry are allowed.
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post #25 of 52 Old 09-16-2014, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Don, I made two public. Try now. I had them unlisted. You got a good price! The adventure continues . Bob

By the way, they come in a big plastic case that will baffle you for a while to get all of the stuff of it. Lots of little parts, and some spare parts I don't know what they belong to.


Another thought. I bought two 16 gig cards for cheap off Amazon, but the 4 gig cards hold a lot more than I thought they would. And every time you download from the card, you can simply go in a reformat the card and start over--very easy to do.


And another thing. A person on another forum pointed me to this Multiplexer software. Haven't used it, but might give it a try to see how I can use it. http://www.3dtv.at/Index_en.aspx

Last edited by 3DBob; 09-16-2014 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Add a couple more thoughts.
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post #26 of 52 Old 09-16-2014, 03:52 PM
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Thanks, Bob. I'll check it out later tonight.

I have a couple 32 Gb Micro SD cards here I can use. Had them from my smart phone when I upgraded to 64Gb. Never ever throw anything away. Not even those little parts.
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post #27 of 52 Old 09-17-2014, 07:16 AM
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Bob- I watched both your videos last evening now that you made them public. They popped up in the search on your name number 2 and 3 in the list like magic.

On my 92" wide screen I could see some defects in the negative parallax. On your jet ski there are two turquoise ears that stick out in front of your handle bars. From these forward toward the cameras the image began to diverge and was the worse around 6 o'clock at the bottom center. You may be able to fix this in post but I have had minimal luck doing that. Better to get the lenses closer together if possible, or get them higher up and aim down angle more. It's not bad, just not perfect. If it wouldn't be for the wide angle lenses I think it would be more of a problem. 80% of the image is well converged and looks really good.

I'm still impressed with the quality of those nabi cameras for the money. If they ever advertised, they would kick GoPro's butt for the regular consumer. The pros would still stick to the GoPros. I can see the higher quality in the Hero3 Black model but the Nabi's look as good as, maybe better than the older Hero 2's

On my last trip, there were about as many GoPros as iphones. Even the ship's photo store sold out of them.
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post #28 of 52 Old 09-18-2014, 11:10 AM
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Got both Nabi's yesterday and made a simple bench for the UW housings so the cameras can be quickly mounted and aligned with no adjustments.

According to my math the IA spacing with the 2.5mm lens came to 90 mm so that is what I made it for. That works out nice for the housing spacing and not needing to remove them to open up.

I did some testing of the run times and found the batteries will last for 2 hours record time so I ordered two more to use as backups. That with the pair of 16Gb micro SD cards should balance out just fine for a couple days shooting.

The mov files record for 30 minutes or 2 Gb
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post #29 of 52 Old 09-20-2014, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Don, I used about a 3" spacing for the jetski mount, so it looks like you can't have anything closer than about 5 feet to maintain convergence. I haven't looked at my videos on the big screen, but I did notice a slight convergence issue on the computer.


I set up a time lapse this past weekend. I set the lenses about 6 inches apart as there was nothing in front of the camera out to about 10 feet. I pushed the shutters at the same time and they made a loud shutter sound so I could tell if they were in sync. They were out of sync, so I tried again and this time they both clicked at the same time. However, after about 5 shots they started to get out of sync, and then about 10 shots later they were in sync again. This with a 2second setting--which obviously is off by milliseconds on both cameras. I'm sure there will be a slight difference in each shot, but we'll see how bad it is. I've looked through the images and they appear okay, but one image was stored sideways--what the?? Must be a software glitch in there somewhere. I now need to create a pageflip video from each camera and try to sync them for stereo. I set the jpg setting to 3meg for closer resolution to 1080p and to conserve SD card space. After 2.5 hours, the cameras starting beeping low battery and turned off. More to come...
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post #30 of 52 Old 09-20-2014, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I downloaded the time lapse images, and I must say they look good. Since they are stored in files on the SD card up to 1000 images per folder (file name starts over with 0001 again), I had to combine into one folder, and rename them in sequence by date with IrfranView. I then loaded them into Gopro software. But Gopro is on to us (ugh), and they start repeating the first frame every 20 frames or so, then they repeat the first part of the file over. I checked the images on windows preview and they are all nicely in sequence with sequence numbers. I looked on online and people are getting black screen files when they try to final render the video from non-gopro files, so back to the drawing board.


What are you all using for time lapse jpgs to video???


Okay, I got gopro software to work. Took a little while to figure it out, but you must name your jpgs using the Gopro file naming convention. I created .MOV files, but they seemed to have glitches in them. I tried AVI and they worked fine. So far, I've got one eye, now on to the other...

Last edited by 3DBob; 09-20-2014 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Update on getting timelapse video to render properly.
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