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post #61 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Did some rendering in 4k3D SbS half and TB. I set the bitrate too low on first render 30mbps and it came out blocky. I set to 60mbps and it looked good but won't play back smoothly on PLEX. The machine there has a standard 5400 rpm desktop drive too slow. I could compress it later with handbrake to get better compression with lower bitrate and playback compatiblity. Of course my 3D viewing is just in 1080p right now, only my editing screen is 2160p but no 3D. 4k3D looks decidely better than 1080p after scalling down to fit the screen, trying to decide if I should bother with 1080p renders or just make 2160p with hardware scalling for now and future proofing for at least 4k half 3D.

I will say that rendering does take 4x's longer. I can't remember where the posts were, some had claimed it wasn't that much longer, but one render set to 3840x2160 was showing over 12 hours to render a 1.5 hour project, when I set it to 1080p it dropped to 3 hrs. And since we're roughly talking about 4x's the resolution the required rendering time is also 4x's longer.

This is on an upgraded Mac Pro, 3.33ghz 12 Core with 960GB SSD for Windows 8.1 28 GB memory. The faster SSD drive appears to have fixed my audio issues in Vegas Pro, I can now render greater than 15 minutes projects without loosing audio.

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post #62 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 04:44 PM
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Tom, as nice as it would be to be able to effectivly work with and view 4K 3D, unfortunately, as your efforts seem to be indicating, there are perhaps too many hurdles at this point, not the least of which is the inability to watch native 4K 3D content- other than perhaps(?) half frame sbs, and the difficulty in working with and rendering such large files. Unfortunately, I'd say the chances of anyone coming out with a native 4K capable 3D monitor, projector, TV, or camera in the forseeable future are slim and none. Quite the pity!

As for rendering 4K, I prefer to set my bitrate at VBR so it will average around the 100mbps or so that the camera shoots. I think that even an average of 100 is about as low as you should really go with 4K. Yes, it may look pretty good with less, but it really will be noticably better if higher.
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post #63 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 05:11 PM
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Tom, regarding your earlier post about frame math, you might be seeing a rolling shutter issue. One sensor might be scanning at a different rate than the other. Most digital cameras don't use mechanical shutters, so they fake a shutter by scanning the sensor at a given rate. So let's say your shutter speed is 1/100th of a second. One "shutter" could be in the pause between scans while the other is in the middle of a scan. I've witnessed this problem with gopros. However, some cameras do "global shutter" and take a full sensor shot at once. Again, if this is what your cameras are doing it might be that one camera is capturing the scene (open shutter) while the other camera is preparing to scan (closed shutter). http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/global-rolling-shutter. I can see a big issue if you are using a high shutter of 1/100 of second (bright sun, low f/stop perhaps). Then they could be off by what appears to be 1/100th of a second. Try forcing a low shutter speed and see what happens--then your math might be right. Perhaps using neutral density filters until you do not see a frame mismatch or frame skipping issue.
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post #64 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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My only hope for 4k3d for the foreseeable future would be for 4k3d half resolution. I've said this before: I think top/bottom would be the correct format for Youtube uploads, that way passive would get full 3840x1080p per eye same as active. Unfortunately Power Director doesn't offer top/bottom, so would have to work fully in Vegas Pro. Full 4k likely will never happen at least not this decade. But I think the differences between full and half resolution are likely the same as full and half resolution 1080p, which I've never noticed much difference or any mainly because you're expecting each eye to distinguish between 540p and 1080p and I can't tell the difference when I have both eyes open, closing one eye I can begin to see the difference.

I'll probably set my next 4k3d half render to 100mbps equal to the raw file then compress with handbrake. I did that with one of the raw files from 100mbps down to 33mbps and I couldn't tell the difference, that's with handbrake though which handles compression better than VP output.

My next screen purchase will be a passive 4k screen so that way I'm ready to go. The files will be a little bigger but with a reduced bitrate it should be compatible on all my devices and the device can scale it to 1080p which will provide a superior image than direct 1080p renders.

Really it isn't that much more trouble save for the extra render times. I checked in task manager and it's showing average 50 percent CPU usage, wish I could get it to go higher, at times it wil hit 60 percent but that's about it. Shows max speed 3.49 GHZ, 12 Cores 24 logical processors.

Happy to report Vegas Pro 13 imports Sony XAVC-S files nicely without pre-converting. Supposely VP 12 you had to convert first. And my audio issues are gone! I think it was that 5400 RPM drive.

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post #65 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 06:25 PM
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My understanding is Handbrake is good but this one I think is the very best and most versatile rendering software out there. It always gets very high praise over on the GV Edius forum. Take a look at it and see if this might help you. I'm probably going to get it at some point for my 4K timelapse projects. It doesn't do 3D, but of course, you're working with SBS so I assume it would be OK.

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw6.html
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post #66 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 06:40 PM
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Still, if the phone is only 30 frames per second I don't see how the app could be acurate enough for hundreth's timing at least while displayed.
That thought had crossed my mind; which is partly why I asked whether you'd done a real life test to see what residual discrepancy there might be.

As people contributing to this part of the forum would know, if simply starting two video cameras manually, in post it's always possible to achieve a match in the action to within no worse than half a frame, by moving the left or right footage along the timeline. And often you might get around a quarter-frame discrepancy purely by chance. If shooting at 60fps that's often good enough for sedate scenes, and very slow pans. The footage paired up in the editor at 60fps can be converted to 24fps if desired when rendering. This approach can work well with wide inter-axial shots of mountains and other scenery. However it can easily break down with close-ups of snow falling, or rain, or people walking briskly.

The holy grail of getting two video cameras to lock that are not equipped with genlock (usually restricted to expensive professional equipment) appears to have been achieved by crunchy3d, judging from his uploaded footage of two Lumix DMC-GH4s showing a boy doing activities that required very high 3D sync precision for successful results. (See his post #56 above.)

Another approach is using a pair of GoPro HERO3+ Black Edition cameras with the 3D Hero system and its synch cable. This gives a similar result to genlock. However not everyone is happy with the GoPro lens barrel distortion for non-sports use.

As for 3D conversion lenses, reviews are few and far between but I gather there may be difficulties in achieving really good results optically. I have seen only a handful of reviews and they have been lukewarm.

The quest continues!
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post #67 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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For half 4k resolution it wouldn't matter. Handbrake is free and I've used it for years so it's pretty much my go to tool for compression.

Just got thru viewing a 1080p output of my St. Patrick's Day footage from the AX1003D rig. It was exactly 2 frames off on the right camera. I moved it over and deleted those two added the stereoscopic adjustment tool and redendered it out. I would have done 4k but it's a much longer render time. Wanted to check and see how it looked first. After fixing the sync it was in time from start to finish 1 hr 32 minutes. Looks to be perfect sync that's entirely done with the IR remote including zooming at times. I had the I.A. a little wide at 3.8" because the subject point was out about 15'20', so at times there is some up close action which you go cross eyed a bit. I'm going to cut it down to a 5-10 minute segment and upload to YT in 4k3d half.

As far as rolling shutter issues, I haven't noticed them yet. It could be an issue, I would think only when panning the camera side to side or fast movement in front of camera. Didn't notice it in parade footage. I did notice on some other footage when I was doing hand held work the cameras were moving around differently which I thought might be the image stabilization not working in tandem. I need to test that with on/off and see which looks better for 3D. These cameras almost have to have image stabilization on when doing hand held work though so I hope that's not the case. So far I'm pretty happy with the results on the parade footage, rail setup worked perfectly and so did the remote at least as far as getting them pretty close in sync. 2 frames off but after post correction they're perfect.

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post #68 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Just got thru viewing a 1080p output of my St. Patrick's Day footage from the AX1003D rig. It was exactly 2 frames off on the right camera. I moved it over and deleted those two added the stereoscopic adjustment tool and redendered it out. I would have done 4k but it's a much longer render time. Wanted to check and see how it looked first. After fixing the sync it was in time from start to finish 1 hr 32 minutes. Looks to be perfect sync that's entirely done with the IR remote including zooming at times. I had the I.A. a little wide at 3.8" because the subject point was out about 15'20', so at times there is some up close action which you go cross eyed a bit. I'm going to cut it down to a 5-10 minute segment and upload to YT in 4k3d half.
An upload would be great. If a single IR remote controlling your two cameras can give perfect or near-perfect sync it provides hope that this approach might also work with some of the cheaper 2D cameras.

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post #69 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
That thought had crossed my mind; which is partly why I asked whether you'd done a real life test to see what residual discrepancy there might be.

As people contributing to this part of the forum would know, if simply starting two video cameras manually, in post it's always possible to achieve a match in the action to within no worse than half a frame, by moving the left or right footage along the timeline. And often you might get around a quarter-frame discrepancy purely by chance. If shooting at 60fps that's often good enough for sedate scenes, and very slow pans. The footage paired up in the editor at 60fps can be converted to 24fps if desired when rendering. This approach can work well with wide inter-axial shots of mountains and other scenery. However it can easily break down with close-ups of snow falling, or rain, or people walking briskly.

The holy grail of getting two video cameras to lock that are not equipped with genlock (usually restricted to expensive professional equipment) appears to have been achieved by crunchy3d, judging from his uploaded footage of two Lumix DMC-GH4s showing a boy doing activities that required very high 3D sync precision for successful results. (See his post #56 above.)

Another approach is using a pair of GoPro HERO3+ Black Edition cameras with the 3D Hero system and its synch cable. This gives a similar result to genlock. However not everyone is happy with the GoPro lens barrel distortion for non-sports use.

As for 3D conversion lenses, reviews are few and far between but I gather there may be difficulties in achieving really good results optically. I have seen only a handful of reviews and they have been lukewarm.

The quest continues!
I saw a video on YT where a guy synced up two GH4's with a single power source. I don't think it went into detail on the setup. I'll find the video and post it here. I'm not a huge fan of the GoPro mainly because I don't shoot many scenes which would require action cameras. If I was doing underwater work or I was an adreneline junkie that would be different. From what I've read they work fine with the sync cable but if you're using them side by side you'll get rolling shutter issues because the sensors scan left to right but with the cable by default it causes the inverted camera to sync opposite so you pretty much have to use them with the official 3D case or you're lines will be off. And yes, the ultra wide is fine but I don't like it all of the time. I like to use it sparingly.

Found it:

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post #70 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I saw a video on YT where a guy synced up two GH4's with a single power source. I don't think it went into detail on the setup. I'll find the video and post it here. ...

Found it:
Thanks, Tom. So inouek3d and crunchy3d have independently shown that practically perfect 3D sync is possible with a pair of GH4s by connecting then to an external power supply at the same time.

And I recall with crunchy3d's setup he had the refinement of a control interface that could introduce a time offset in applying power to the cameras. That could prove useful if the particular pair of cameras differed slightly in their startup speed.
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post #71 of 306 Old 05-02-2016, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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The only problem with the GH4 setup like this is the wide I.A. restriction with SbS setup. I'm not sure on exact distance but I would estimate minimum would be no less than 4.5-5 inches. I can get 3.3 inches with the AX100's and I could get 3 inches even with the redundant charging cable removed. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to remove it. A mirror rig would almost be required for any DSLR setup as the bodies are wider on those at least for close up work. But a mirror rig is anything but run and gun.

I'm going to do some more testing with the closest I.A. (3.3") and see how close up works. 3.8" in the parade video, anything under 6 feet was noticably too much disparity. It didn't hurt my eyes that much, but did force them to cross eye more. This is about an inch more I.A. than my largest camera the 3DA1 at 2.3 inches. I do have some wide angle lenses which should help bring the minimum subject distance down a few feet.

Also want to test toe-in. Yes, of course that introduces keystoning but I still want to try it. I might be able to defocus the background since it has a larger 1 inch sensor and/or keystone correction in post. Would like to do some macro work, from my measurements I should be able to get as close as 6 inches to subject vs 18 inches on the Z10k.

I've made a 14 minute edit slimmed down from the 1.5 hour parade footage. It's rendering now in 4k3D half. I'll upload it to YT when it's done. I suggest playing the 4k version as that will have the highest bit rate and your hardware should properly scale it down to 1080p unless you have a passive 4k screen. I currently don't have anything to view this is 4k3d half yet, only my edit monitor is 4k2D.

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post #72 of 306 Old 05-04-2016, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, upload is done. Rendered at 100 mbps. I think I may need to compress first before uploading going forward. It took forever to upload. I thought there might be a slight vertical misalignment in the first few clips but I was using my first rail which wasn't as good as the one I'm using now.

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post #73 of 306 Old 05-04-2016, 08:01 AM
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Tom, I just watched on my 27" passive 3D monitor in 1080p and it looks great! There were only a very few anomalies that I could see, and I watched closely. I would say it was very watchable and enjoyable--loved the masons or whatever they were in the race cars--cracked me up. Also, the zoom worked well. I am amazed at how sharp this looked. When I looked at the stats, the connection rate got up to as high of 172,000 kbps (???yup, how is that possible???). YouTube must be doing something right these days. I've got to rewatch some of my old stuff now. Your 4K rig works!
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post #74 of 306 Old 05-04-2016, 08:56 AM
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I did a quick check of just the first few minutes of the 1080p YouTube version (will download and and view the 2GB 4K version later). I thought the interaxial distance worked well: a nice 3D effect without being exaggerated.

The timing as between the left and right views? Spot on as far as I could see.

For example I examined the frames at around 2m 42.8s of a man throwing coloured objects into the crowd. The fast movements of his arm and hand appeared to be in perfect sync.

Thanks for this Tom, a very nice result.
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post #75 of 306 Old 05-04-2016, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Tom, I just watched on my 27" passive 3D monitor in 1080p and it looks great! There were only a very few anomalies that I could see, and I watched closely. I would say it was very watchable and enjoyable--loved the masons or whatever they were in the race cars--cracked me up. Also, the zoom worked well. I am amazed at how sharp this looked. When I looked at the stats, the connection rate got up to as high of 172,000 kbps (???yup, how is that possible???). YouTube must be doing something right these days. I've got to rewatch some of my old stuff now. Your 4K rig works!
Remember, YT must do a batch processing, the original file is replaced at some point with the compressed file. From what I've seen 4k content avg's around 12-14 mbps. The raw was 100mbps so it might still be using that file. At some point the original file will be gone, usually within 24 hours.

I went back and compared the image quality of the Z10k 3D footage I took in 2014 of the same event St. Patrick's Day and I was blown away by how much better the AX100's are just viewing in 1080p.

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post #76 of 306 Old 05-04-2016, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Macro 3D-

Did some testing with minimum subject distance at 6" with the AX1003D rig, this was with heavy toe in for both cameras to intersect at the 6" cross point. Unfortunately this won't work at least not with video. I've seen it with still cameras but there's some post rendering work to get the images to look right. Problem is that the two views are too widely different angles combined with too much dispairity. Angling the cameras in doesn't shorten the I.A. distance either. Keystone distortion in the background wasn't too bad with the shallow DOF hiding most of the inconsistancies, but overall the image (cross-point subject) isn't a satisfactory 3D image. I tried zooming in post and adding keystone correction which helped some of the extreme dispairity but not the overall problem with the two drastic angle of views.

Of course macro 3D has always been difficult, nothing new here. It was a good experiement and challenge but isn't going to work with 6 inch setup. So I changed the toe in to a more minimal angle for 18-24 inch minimum subject distance similar to the Z10k and then gradually zoomed in. I was really impressed with the results with this method which is similar to what the Z10k can produce, no worse, possibly better because of better toe in and zoom range but you still have to keep at least 18 inches. I'll have to do more tests here and see what the closest distance is and zoom potential, possibly a bit closer than what the Z10k offers, but you can't get too close because you have to toe the cameras in more and that won't work because the angles become too different.

So that brings me back to a mirror rig which I believe is still the best method for macro 3D with two cameras. But the problem with that setup, besides the size and weight of the larger rig is that the more you overlap the cameras the less pronounced the 3D effect. But the best method is to have the cameras pointed directly ahead at the subject which can only be done with a mirror rig. So possibly a mirror rig is back on my list but I think for my needs it would just be for macro work. I can get everything else I need with the easier to use SbS rig and generally 95 percent of what I shoot isn't macro.

Image Stabilization

Ran tests with it on and off. Definately has to be on for hand held. The camera views wobble differently and you get eye strain pretty quick trying to view it. Now I just need to test with it on and see how well it works or if the I.S. still causes inconsistant view movement when it's working.

Tried my wide angle lenes and found there was vignetting. Culprit was the UV filters I put on them so they had to come off.

4k30p vs 1080p60-

Tried some 1080p60 shooting. Right off I do see a image quality difference between 4k 100 mbps and 1080p60 50 mbps, color and sharpness all superior with 4k recording and both were output to 1080p 30 and 60p and examined which is consitant with the 4k sourced material I had been viewing on YT, in just 1080p. Filmed at 4k 1080p looks superior than filmed at 1080p.

60p is noticeably smoother, but I think for most things I'd choose 4k at 24 or 30p, unfortuantely no 4k60p on these or anything else in this size yet.
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post #77 of 306 Old 05-08-2016, 12:56 PM
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Seeing that I have my initial 4K Home theater system working well now, my next goal is to decide which 4K camera to get.

I want to stay in the $1000 price category since I just don't want to spend the budget for the pro cameras right now- My dilemma is trying to decide to just get a 2D video camcorder such as the Sony AX53 or the Sony a6300. I have looked at many YT videos with these two and see that both offer great color and detail. It seems the still camera body has a bit more rolling shutter issues than the ax53. I think both could serve me will in 2D. Neither can sync for genlock by buying a cable as neither are capable of genlock.

The advantage of the 6300 is that all my NEX 5n lenses will work. That gives me a great still camera and my 18-210 zoom lens has OIS built in. The ax53 shoots at 120fps which produces really nice slomo.

I need to get to a good camera store and get each in my hands before buying, but I would like to get some 4K video on my next trip which is only a couple weeks away.

For shooting video- the camcorders have single lenses but offer variable speed zoom.


What am I missing with the a6300 vs the big boys tom and Barry are using?

For shooting video- the camcorders have single lenses but offer variable speed zoom.

My 3D videos and more
Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752
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post #78 of 306 Old 05-08-2016, 01:34 PM
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Don, my vote is the a6300. The only thing you won't have is the powered zoom. The a6300 also does 120 fps in full HD- the camera sensor is APS-C 1.6 crop. The reviews I've seen on the camera are quite good. I'm somewhat biased these days toward still cameras as my new passion is timelapse, but the advantage there is that the a6300 will effectively take stills at the equivalent of around, I believe, 6K. So, if you decide to use it for TL, you'll have a lot of extra real estate. If not, the 4K video may be better since you'll have the option of additional lenses. As for your lens, I just don't know much about it. Is the 18-210 full frame specs or with crop factored in? Also, I'm not sure if you'll have to buy an adapter as the camera is a Sony FE mount. Regardless, you'll also have the ability to add more lenses with the camera if you want where you wouldn't with the camcorder. Additionally, I suspect that the 6300 will be better in lower light than the camcorder. Further, if you ever want to use it for a bench 3D timelapse setup, there are devices that will sync the still shutters on two cameras.

My camera is a full frame Sony A7S2. The main claim to fame is the low light capabilities. It is geared as much toward 4K video as stills. I'm so deep into this whole thing already, I'm pretty sure I'm going to also pick up a Sony A7R2 in the near future. That one also does 4K but is 42 megapixals for stills- effectively 8K- and will give me some additional capabilities with still frame real estate when editing on a 4K timeline. When I'm hot and heavy into my Yosemite and high sierra project this summer, I'd like to be able to run the two cameras at once in different directions.
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post #79 of 306 Old 05-08-2016, 01:56 PM
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PS:
One factor you might need to consider is the a6300 doesn't have IBIS- in body image stabilization. Many, but not all, of their dedicated e-mount lenses have in lens stabilization. Again, I have no information on your lens in this regard, so you may need to look into it, if stabilization is important to you. As far as I'm concerned, its nice but we all know we can mostly tame all this in post- as well as the fact that you have a gimbal. The A7S2 and A7R2 have IBIS, so its not a problem if the lenses don't but you pay a lot more for these cameras. The stabilization is quite good on them.

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post #80 of 306 Old 05-08-2016, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I'd go with the A6300 too, your lens should work fine. I was looking at this camera before it was launched but don't have the budget left for it now. Looking for something to replace my older DSLR and for some video. Too many other things going on. AX53 is only 1/2" sensor that's really small for 4k. If they were 1" I would go with them, but no IR remote, I guess that's going away, thinking about 3D there. I believe you can get an IR remote for the A6300 so might work for 3D down the road if you add a 2nd. Of course since it's a camera and not a camcorder it has the 29'59" record limit and not as ergonomic as a camcorder no power zoom or internal image stabelization. But A6300 will provide superior image.

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post #81 of 306 Old 05-08-2016, 11:04 PM
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Barry- Thanks for your opinion. You gave me some things to check out, the FE lens vs E lens. The specks I saw state e mount, but there are a collection of weather proof versions of what I have which have been released for the a6300 weather proof body. I have the 16mm, the 18-55mm and the 18-210mm. Only the 18-210mm supports OIS. I also have the .75 and .5 wide angle adapters for the 16mm lenses. The OIS in the ax53 is much superior to the a6300 with a walking video.

Note- I did all my comparison videos of the two on my 4K projector with You Tube 4K video setting. There are quite a few 4K sample shoots for both the a6300 and the ax53.
One thing to note- the 120 fps is only available at 1080p. 4K is 24p and 30p only for both cameras.


Ultimately, I will probably get both models, and two of the a6300's or maybe by then the next version of it. I'm waiting to see how you do, Tom with your work with the GH1 cameras, especially your ability to sync the frames, although my work with twin still cameras in video mode will be mostly what I have been doing with the NEX5n's but shooting in 4K as opposed tom 2K. Thast is static no movement large landscape scenes. Later this week, I plan to review your work, Tom, on my projector 92" wide screen.

I should note that I have been having some difficulty with running the projector in any SBS or Top Bottom mode with the HDMI#2 input that is needed for 4K signals. The signal must be frame packed. When selecting HDMI input #2 on the projector so I can feed it a 4K HDCP2.2 signal, all the SBS and TB settings disappear from the menu. In HDMI #1 input, the SBS and TB is there but the input signal is limited to 1080p60 or less. Then the 3D is upscaled to 4K using Sony Reality Creation which is quite a bit more than just pixel duplication. If the source has the meta data to switch the projector to 4K frame packed than I think it will work.

So, with that said, my main use for 4K right now will be a basic video camcorder to shoot my travel work. Because of that I am leaning very heavily toward the camcorder for the first buy. 20x Zoom, double OIS and digital IS built in is claimed to be the best in the industry now. audio is 5.0 and the camcorder is small enough to carry in a single lens case on my belt.

You mentioned the Gimbal stabilizer. These are good for single and twin GoPro cameras only WRT weight, so no medium format camera will balance well anyway. I don't see using the a6300 handheld except when I have the 18-210mm with OIS mounted.

I'd stick to the GoPro's for 4K but the mandatory wide lens by default is way too much curvature, barrel distortion. I'm basically done with GoPro. They saturated the sport camera market and now the sales is down the toilet. If the drone is a failure, the company will be bankrupt. They already announced it won't be ready this year and they laid off 7% of the R&D staff. It's not good.

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post #82 of 306 Old 05-08-2016, 11:49 PM
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The AX53 also allows a number of remote control features using wifi and NFC technology, including multi cam sync. I don't know if this is true genlock but it does allow single settings for multi cams and start stop functions including remote viewing with an android phone using wifi or NFC.

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post #83 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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The AX53 also allows a number of remote control features using wifi and NFC technology, including multi cam sync. I don't know if this is true genlock but it does allow single settings for multi cams and start stop functions including remote viewing with an android phone using wifi or NFC.
That's what worries me too, wifi may not be as close as IR for sync also won't be as easy to use having to setup first with phone before each shot. But overall, AX53 is a better camera to use for video but A6300 is overall superior in quality and performance. Depends on what you're after. If you're thinking about 3D down the road with adding a 2nd, the AX53 might be better since it weighs less and will have closer I.A. potential. Low light won't be as good, however. But you also don't have to worry about lens changes and you might be able to zoom sync with 2 cameras easier. I have to say the zoom sync is pretty good with the AX100's. I've been expirimenting with macro 3D and have found 1 camera isn't always in focus, so that's an issue too. Haven't had that problem as much shooting further distances, just up close. I need to put on tripod and check focus first for macro, plus steadier shots.

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post #84 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 08:31 AM
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tom- usually Low light is not an issue with me and most of my outdoors shooting will he plenty of light. In fact I normally shoot with a CPL for increased color saturation.

Theoretically, the quality should be better with the a6300 but the one shootout test I saw was the rolling shutter test between the two. The a6300 was not as good, exhibited far more than the ax53. The earlier ax33 did have a considerable problem with rolling shutter so I guess Sony really went to work on that.

The only way to see how the wifi control and NFC works for the multi camera control is to test it. Everything always sounds great in the features listing. But, the good news is the feature is built in as opposed to not. I hope the multi sync works as claimed. I suspect the lag on cell phone remote display will be great as I discovered that technology for the Go Pro. It lags too much to be useful to me. FWIW- I first tried to use IR to do start and stop and zoom control of the Twin TD10's and it was useless, never accurate. That's why I switched to audio or strobe flash syncing of non genlock cameras. The GoPro is the most precise as it is true genlock. My sync adapter for the twin TD10's is also very accurate but not quite genlock, just much more convenient and the zoom tracks accurately. Too bad, we don't have the feature built in to these new camcorders.


Anyway, after a quick look at an actual ax53, I decided to proceed with a purchase. Had to buy a 55-67mm and 55-77mm step ring so my large collection of filters can be used.
I also ordered the latest high speed 128gb SD card which should be enough. It's 95Mb/s so I hope that is fast enough. It is rated for 4K video. I may order one more before my trip. Should have it by Wednesday.

.

Tom- on focus, with twin cameras, I always use manual focus, and for that matter switch to manual WB too. Even my Z10K doesn't track proper WB between the left and right. The right cam always is a bit redder than the left. I had lots of trouble with my GoPro twin cams too so switching to manual WB solved that. It's just an issue when moving in and out of indoors which is a rare scene for me.

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post #85 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Not sure on the 95mb cards. When I read the reviews they said they weren't fast enough but according to recording specs as long as they're the Class 10 UH 3 cards it will work. I got the Lexar 150mb/s 1000x cards 256gb just to be sure.

I got to looking at the AX53 again. I guess this does have the BOSS I.S., it's improved from the AX33, but what worried me about this was that the lens actually floats around on a internal gyro of some kind, which I don't know if that would work for 3D or not as they'd be moving differently as opposed to digital I.S. which should be closer aligned. I'm still testing these AX100's for 3D with the I.S. on, with them off the two views move around and are not in sync, with I.S. on it looks pretty good but more testing is needed. With I.S. off and hand held the footage is useless for 3D. On a tripod this of course would make no difference. I'm looking at both stationary and mobile uses.

So far I've had everything in auto mode and it's worked pretty well, focus, WB, iris, shutter. I've kept the ND filter in manual and just check what it recommends then I set both. The cameras are pretty well balanced with the auto mode, as good as having an all in one 3D camera. Focus isn't that bad, it's just with macro, I'm zooming in really far on small objects so that's pretty much going to require manual focus which can be done by pressing the manual button on the left. For further shooting I haven't had focus problems. Looking at the 53, I don't see any manual buttons on the side so might have to control those with the LCD or phone. Overall size they look a little smaller than the AX100 and weigh about a half pound less. So that'd come in at around 3.5 lbs on my rig vs 4.5 so lighter for hand held.

The AX100's don't have multi sync just single cam use but it was pretty much spot on timing as I recall from the phone. Start/stop sync and zoom may be possible here for 3D. Since they have 1080p120 I'd be interested in finding out how they work for 3D if you do end up getting a 2nd one.

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post #86 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 11:33 AM
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I don't know if that would work for 3D
Actually, I do know and it doesn't work at all not even for tripod mount. I've tried it and it is a disaster. That's whi I use non IS cams with a gimbal stabilizer for best results and why I shut off the IS for twin cams. In a single 3D camera the two cams are moved in sync with OIS then same as mine are in a gimbal.

The focus on my prior Sony consumer camcorders was a function on the little side knob where you toggle the selection from a number of uses with a push button and then turn the knob. In the ax53, you select manual focus and the large front knurled rink focuses just like a traditional lens. You also have spot focus on the screen and the auto focus which is reviewed to be the fastest in the industry right now. The auto focus works on contrast.

Don't wait for me to get two for 3D. I will check out the wifi and NFC with low priority in my time and report for you. My main use for now is to shoot 2D 4K as a tourist. For 3D camcorder I will continue to use the Z10K and the TD10 when size is an issue. For wide IA for large open landscapes, I will use the twin NEX5n system and maybe later buy two of the a6300 or it's undate next year to replace the NEX5n bodies I now have.

I see no need for twin ax53. Note in my avatar you see me with the twin TD10's. The last time I used that rig was before I bought the twin NEX5n system. I still shoot with the TD10 but not in wide IA mode. Handheld wide IA makes no sense.


Part of my goal at my age and stamina is to create a shooting package I can carry in crowds and cover my options. The GoPro 3d rig on a gimbal, this ax53 and a NEX5n with the 18-210 zoom will be my all day camera bag package. Shooting from my stateroom balcony on a tripod or on the deck of the ship, I will use the Z10K. Of course I will always have the Lumix 3D1 in my belt pouch for those rare surprises. I carry the TD10 as a backup when I want to shoot with a smaller 3D camera in the crowds.

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post #87 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 11:39 AM
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Don, Im using the SanDisk Extreme Pro UHS-I SDXC U3, 95MB read speed and much more importantly, it has 90MB write speed. The Lexar 1000x has a faster read speed but is 80MB write speed. I'm using a 256GB card in my A7SII and it has been perfect for 100mbps 4K. You will be fine if this is what you have.

As for rolling shutter. I find the reviews mostly laughable. I've seen them for the A7SII and A7RII. Yes, there is rolling shutter if you pan at idiotic speeds- like they show in the Youtube reviews- which none of us, or any sane video shooter would ever use. When used at normal controlled panning speeds, its a non issue-IMO.
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post #88 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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The focus on my prior Sony consumer camcorders was a function on the little side knob where you toggle the selection from a number of uses with a push button and then turn the knob. In the ax53, you select manual focus and the large front knurled rink focuses just like a traditional lens. You also have spot focus on the screen and the auto focus which is reviewed to be the fastest in the industry right now. The auto focus works on contrast.

Same on the AX100.


Handheld wide IA makes no sense.

Right, I use hand held for close I.A. between 3.3"-4.3" on my small rail. Wide I.A. would require tripod.


Part of my goal at my age and stamina is to create a shooting package I can carry in crowds and cover my options. The GoPro 3d rig on a gimbal, this ax53 and a NEX5n with the 18-210 zoom will be my all day camera bag package. Shooting from my stateroom balcony on a tripod or on the deck of the ship, I will use the Z10K. Of course I will always have the Lumix 3D1 in my belt pouch for those rare surprises. I carry the TD10 as a backup when I want to shoot with a smaller 3D camera in the crowds.
I think that's too many for one person. I'm going with just the AX100's, I think I can do everything with just those two for 3D and 2D, will have to bring along the 12" rail or just use it alone, but the smaller rail takes up less space for hand held work. I can then produce 2D and 3D from the same camera setup and upload to YT with 4k3D half and then a 2D 4k from the left camera. Similar to my Z10k and 3DA1 workflow. I haven't been using my 3D1 or W3 lately, I've been looking at some frame grabs in 4k and they're superior to what those cameras produce. At least they're small though.

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post #89 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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As for rolling shutter. I find the reviews mostly laughable. I've seen them for the A7SII and A7RII. Yes, there is rolling shutter if you pan at idiotic speeds- like they show in the Youtube reviews- which none of us, or any sane video shooter would ever use. When used at normal controlled panning speeds, its a non issue-IMO.
Yeah, I read the same thing about the AX100, but it was always when someone was doing a whip pan, fine if you have a global shutter but come on, these are consumer cameras afterall. And for 3D which I'm doing, I don't want that anyway.

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post #90 of 306 Old 05-09-2016, 01:07 PM
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The whip pans are certainly obvious and look an exaggerated mess, but there is one where the test was done with a tripod and fluid head real slow. nedium and fast. Both were obviously terrible in fast which I would agree a waste of time, but the real slow pan on the fluid head was realistic. The ax53 was there but very hard to see. The a6300 was obvious even at the really slow pan.

As for the snobbish remark about You Tube, what can I say, there you can find all sorts of video and it's up to you to watch them or not. I find watching several dozen I get a pretty good idea of the cameras's performance. And, I won't bother evaluating any 4K purposed camera watching a 2K screen. All my viewing was on the 4K screen where I plan for this to be seen.

Tom- I haven't begun to dig into this yet but in my setup, I can't seem to access any 3D SBS half work at 4K. When my projector sees a 4K source, it disables the SBS options. So all I get is 2 side by side images. If I down res the 4K to 1080P then the projector will switch to 1080P and I now have the option of SBS or TB or frame pack.

How do you see 4K 3D SBSh? One test I have not done is connect my samsung 4K K8500 player I use for 4K YouTube to input #1 and see if that will allow the menus to come up.

This loss of all 3D viewing modes for 4K was a problem I didn't think would be on this projector. There is plenty of 4K 3D SBS half stuff up on You Tube so I need to see if that works. It must work on some monitors. Ideally, the SBSh should switch to 3D automatically. I'll be checking this out this week. Maybe it's the Samsung player that is not allowing it.

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