4K 3D Twin Rig - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 15Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 305 Old 02-28-2016, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
4K 3D Twin Rig

I'm posting my build for my new 4k 3D rig. This is still a work in progress and no 3D recording has been attempted yet, still have to work on sync cable.

Cameras used:

Two Sony AX100's (Sony AX1003D)

Brief Specs:
3840x2160p 24p/30p
1" sensor 18x zoom
Large Zeiss Glass, uses 62mm filters
Built in 3 way adjustable ND filters with auto mode
100mb/s or 60mb/s 8bit recording with Sony XAVC-S codec (Running Firmware 3.0)
Size and weight, 2 lbs. each, total weight with rail, handles and cabling should be around 4.5 lbs about the same as the Panasonic Z10k.
Using Lexar 256gb cards for 5hr 38mins max recording in highest setting.


Still working on sync cable for hard sync of zoom/rec. I have tested with IR remote and was able to get perfect sync what appeared to be every other start/stop. I used my phone running a timer with hundredths place. The first attempt it was off 6 hundredths of a second, the next take was perfect, same time in both cameras. The next take was off again 6 hundredths, then perfect. If there's a pattern developing here, that's nice to know as a backup to the hardwire sync if that fails to work.

One issue I noticed with the zoom on these cameras, there is not direct indication what zoom length is used like there is on the Panasonic cameras. They started at Z00 up to Z99 on the Z10k. The 3DA1 was less. So I will need to have zoom sync too, but I don't think that will be a problem with the cable and controller.

This rail is 6.3 inches long. Minimum interaxial is 3.3 inches. The connection for the sync cable is too long and touches the other camera. I ordered a 90 degree adapter to shorten that up. It may touch the rail below, hoping there is enough wiggle room or I will have to modify either the height of the adjustable baseplates or the rail. Maximum interaxial on this rail is 4.3. There's not a big variance here and it's wider than all-in-one camcorders. My 3dA1 is 2.3 inches so an inch over that. However, I believe I can introduce toe-in and shorten the minimum shooting distance with what would be 10-15 feet down to 6 inches depending on level of toe-in. This will of course cause keystone distortion but I believe given the close proximity of the cameras and post correction, the results should be satisfactory.

I am considering building a small mirror rig, but want to wait until I see the results of this side by side rig first. If this works, I may not need the mirror rig if I have the same range of 3D just need to see the results because there could be a problem with under 12' depending on if the keystone distortion is a problem. I don't think it will be.

One problem with all in one 3D camcorders is they start to fall short on 3D effect after zooming. I have been on the fence for a long time about ordering a stereo base extender for either the z10k or 3DA1 as they're priced at or near $2k. In the end, it is the same fundamental problem in that the I.A. is fixed. I have a longer rail option too, up to 12" and then I have some leftover 1/4" AL strips from another project I can use for even wider setups. I think I have up to 28" but I can alway pick up some longer ones but I think over that I would just go to two tripods.

Testing out the cameras just in 2D, wow they are really sharp on my 4k monitor. One option on the cameras that's missing is color adjustment inside the camera. It lacks any way to adjust it so that will have to be done in post. Some have complained there is a rolling shutter issue with this camera. I don't see it as an issue because I don't shoot quick pans and because it's 3D I want to keep the image as stable as possible. I will be adding handles below to shoot handheld and I have a steady cam too. For longer distances and wide I.A. those will be locked down anyhow. At wide angle there will need to be at least a minimum setting of toe-in.

I briefly experimented with macro with these cameras and they're pretty good. I can get the lenses just a few inches away and still zoom in a decent amount. Hoping to do some macro 3D work. This should be a big improvement over the Z10k which needed at least 18"s minimum distance. There are a lot of times I find this just isn't enough. One attached image shows max toe in, that would be for approx. 6" convergence setting.

So with moving to twin cameras that should increase the range of 3D from what I have now. There hasn't been any new 3D cameras released. There was that Samsung with the 3D lens but the specs showed 19" minimum focus for 3D too, and given the close proximity using a single lens the range would be even less than the 3D1 point and shoot so pretty limiting in 3D range for what it offers.

Not sure if I'm ready to dump my 1080p cameras yet. I will probably just hang on to them. They would still be good to just pick up and use.

I've attached some pictures of setup but this is incomplete as the hard sync cable is missing as well as handles. Would also like to attach a dorsal handle. The lenses are 29mm wide, slightly less with I.S. on but the I.S. is very good on this camera. Without it, it's about impossible to shoot long shots unless you're mounted. Auto settings appear very good, manual is also possible. I will probably use the ND filters in manual, I don't want them changing differently between the lenses. The other auto settings could do that too, so may have to lock in some manual settings. The screen will flash what ND is recommended.

Low light is definitely better on this camera with the 1" sensor over my z10k and 3DA1. You can turn the db up to about 21 to 24. I have it set so it tops out at 24. It can go a little higher but gets pretty noisy beyond that. Same sensor as the RX10. I think it's pretty nice. With the ND filters it should perform very well.

I looked at quite a few handycam style camcorders as well as dslr cameras, even cinema cameras like the Blackmagic Ursa Mini. Given the size, cost and weight I ended up with these cameras for 3D. My choice in using the AX100 was largely for 3D use for setup and functionality.

I ruled out any of the Panasonic 4k handcams because of one design flaw on them. You can't use the cameras with the LCD closed. You can, if you operate from wifi or if you start recording and then close the LCD, but those restrictions would not work for 3D recording. They also have a smaller sensor at 1/2" for 4k so that's packing them in pretty tight vs 1".

There's the AX33, and that would come in about half the size and weight of this rig. But it uses a BOSS I.S. which the lens actually floats around inside the camera. I don't know if you can turn this off so that it locks into place, if not imagine your eyes diverging and converging as the image wobbles all over the place. So you wouldn't be able to use with I.S. on. Whether or not it will be an issue on the AX100, I don't know yet. It doesn't have BOSS, thankfully. At distance it won't be an issue because it will be turned off anyway with the camera rig locked down. Handheld, might have to turn off, more testing is needed same with auto settings.

Also looked at some dslr and bridge cameras but either the cost was too much or there were other camera issues. One that I looked at because they are really cheap is the Panasonic FZ1000, but that camera suffers from AF locking issues and wobbling video. Not all the video I saw on YT had this but more than a few. It also crops the sensor for 4k making the FOV 37mm, I could live with that considering they're not very expensive cameras but not the AF issues and wobble. I looked at a few others too but nothing really ended up working. DSLR bodies are wider so they will require more toe in at closer distances.

Ok, that's it for now, sorry for the long post. I'll post back when the sync cable is done.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony AX1003D-1.jpg
Views:	143
Size:	56.1 KB
ID:	1284409   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony AX1003D-4.jpg
Views:	146
Size:	67.8 KB
ID:	1284417   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony AX1003D-3.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	56.1 KB
ID:	1284425   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony AX1003D-5.jpg
Views:	148
Size:	62.2 KB
ID:	1284433   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony AX1003D-2.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	78.2 KB
ID:	1284441  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony AX1003D-6.jpg
Views:	140
Size:	51.6 KB
ID:	1284465  

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 305 Old 02-28-2016, 03:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NODES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 273
looks like wall-e
RLBURNSIDE and Daniel Chaves like this.

Who needs 4K?... just go see your optometrist.
NODES is offline  
post #3 of 305 Old 02-28-2016, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by NODES View Post
looks like wall-e

These really look like WallE, almost think they designed his eyes based on this pair.


Nikon Binoculars.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	rayle0208-img600x450-1456455055t9hkw36088.jpg
Views:	118
Size:	150.9 KB
ID:	1284473   Click image for larger version

Name:	Wall-E_Cubecolors.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	184.8 KB
ID:	1284481  
RLBURNSIDE likes this.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
 
post #4 of 305 Old 02-29-2016, 11:32 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 12,404
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1313 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Tom, you may want to consider the necessity of a genlock cable for wide IA. The key advantage of genlock sync is to very accurately match the left and right frames. Considering that wide IA must be used for long distances, and eliminate the close in objects, the fast motion is much too slow across the image field to be of any significance, especially if you capture your clips at 60fps. Therefore genlock is not so critical for video.

I have several variable IA rigs here. I have had excellent luck with sync manually to frame accuracy at 24 fps, but high speed motion, such as achieving sharp motion within a frame, does require the genlock cable. Cameras MUST be designed to genlock with a source clock to sync the frames. Using a twin camera controller on the remote jack of a camera will not genlock, but will sync the two cameras for start stop and zoom control. Today, these controllers are hard to find. I have one I use with my twin TD10 cameras and used it to shoot some fireworks and a few landscape 3D projects like my early Disney and the Valley of fire documentary. Today, I prefer to shoot my scenery 3D with wide IA using the twin NEX5n cameras with wide angle lenses, up to 1 meter IA. No zoom capability and I have to use sound to aid in left and right alignment, but it works well.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	4inch IA mounting.jpg
Views:	111
Size:	401.5 KB
ID:	1285985   Click image for larger version

Name:	P1010891 low res.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	89.8 KB
ID:	1286001  

My 3D videos and more
Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752
Don Landis is offline  
post #5 of 305 Old 02-29-2016, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
I won't have genlock, these cameras and pretty much all prosumer models don't have that. As you know genlock is more than start/stop sync but constantly keeping the cameras in phase thru an external box that regulates the two cameras so they're always firing at the same time and that they don't eventually drift apart. My cable will just be a start/stop sync but from what I've been reading and as is the case with GoPro, start/stop sync should work well enough.

Just wondering, has anyone had any problems with sync with the GoPro since this will be the same concept?

I was surprised that I had 50 percent success rate when using the IR remote contrary to my experiments with on my NoPro setup. That didn't prove too well as I could never get the cameras to start/stop at the same time on those, but on the AX100's I'm getting sync every other start/stop attempt. (note: my test is different, using a timer to check). As a backup, I could fire with the remote once to get them in sync, then fire again for the actual recording. There's a 1 second delay on recording startup and stop similar to the 3DA1 (note: this doesn't happen on the Z10k it records instantly as do many other cameras). But my main use will be with a sync cable which my brother in law will be constructing for me a custom spitter cable to pair the cameras up.

I did some more testing with the start/stop sync using the remote last night but I have not had a chance to check and see if I received the same results as my earlier test. I also haven't checked in VP to see if the frames match up precisely, but since I am getting perfect start/stop down to 1/100th of a second, I would assume it would be since 30 frames per second would only require 3/10th's of a second, if my math is correct. No 60fps option for 4k on these, I could drop down to 1080p60 with 50mbps recording and that would require less accuracy at 6/10ths of a second. So I believe the faster frame rate you actually require less accuracy, correct me here if I'm wrong. 24p recording would require even closer accuracy at 2.4 tenths of a second. My tests with the IR came down to exact 100th of a second. I don't know yet if this was a glitch or if there was indeed a pattern. I am going to do more testing with the IR, but would rather have the cable.

In the field, as this is primarily a run and gun setup to work alongside the Z10k or 3DA1, the IR remote isn't ideal. It would be fine from tripod, but I need something more ergonomic so that's where the sync with a better trigger and zoom control will come in handy.

The other issue that I see already is alignment, which is something we take for granted on all in one 3D cameras. I immediately noticed vertical misalignment, but later found out I had the I.S. enabled on the right camera (which crops slightly when in use). But even after that was turned off the left camera was still slightly too low, so I've made temporary spacers (cardboard) on top of the baseplate. I need to come up with a better mount system on top of the adjustable plates for aligning the cameras vertically and I may need a riser anyway to allow space for the sync cable on the left camera to hookup.

Right now, with temporary fix, it's vertically aligned. For horizontal, this is another problem. The built in cameras crop the sensor for toe in convergence. I will be doing it manually for close up wide angle shots and that will cause the left camera to have more right frame image and the right to have more left angle view. Some cropping will be necessary in post to correct.

The biggest problem with cameras with genlock is they're large cameras. Closest I.A. would be maybe 6". Without a beamsplitter the closest you could shoot would be 15'. I'm estimating I will get better range of 3D than the cameras I have now, especially in the macro range for as little as 5" and well beyond the range of those that require genlock (if using as side by side mount). Since the cameras have a larger 1" sensor the background could be blurred out to hide most of the keystone distortion at that close distance where the distortion would be the most infringing.

The other advantage is size and weight, which I really wanted to have a small go anywhere rig, something I wouldn't be able to do on my own with cameras that have genlock. So basically I can take it anywhere I can take the Z10k. The rail is 6.3" long, which should handle at the minimum I.A. 3.3"s close up work and 4.3" better range for handheld work. I have a longer 12" rail that will accept the same baseplates, so quick swapping is another feature. Beyond that I will have to prepare a different rail setup.

Yes, the fun continues!

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #6 of 305 Old 02-29-2016, 01:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3DBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 1,378
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked: 161
Tom, Edius does a good job with vertical, horizontal, keystoning and fit 3D adjustment (ie. it will cut off overlapping right and left to fit) with each camera when L and R video is automatically paired. The gopro system for black 3+ cameras has a genlock sync pack to connect the two cameras. That said, I think Don has done 4K with his gopro hero 4 cameras with no genlock successfully...
3DBob is offline  
post #7 of 305 Old 02-29-2016, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Tom, Edius does a good job with vertical, horizontal, keystoning and fit 3D adjustment (ie. it will cut off overlapping right and left to fit) with each camera when L and R video is automatically paired. The gopro system for black 3+ cameras has a genlock sync pack to connect the two cameras. That said, I think Don has done 4K with his gopro hero 4 cameras with no genlock successfully...
VP's is pretty good too. The idea would be to get as close as possible in camera for less cropping in post, that's what I'm trying to do now while still in the building phase. I know when I get it perfect thru the camera it will still be off a small degree as the actual 4k resolution is larger than what's being displayed in the 900k pixel LCD.

As I understood it the Hero 3 Black was just a sync cable start/stop with in camera firmware. It may just be a jam lock sync like connecting two genlock ports on two cameras together. Actual genlocking would require an external monitor between the two cameras to control the frame and sub frame match. My fear with my setup is that even with perfect start/stop sync at the frame level, the sub frames will begin to drift apart.

The other major issue is no synced exposure control between the two lenses. I tested it in auto for focus, iris, gain and shutter. Iris on the left camera kept settling at 2.8 while the right wanted 3.1. The gain was also slightly off. It didn't make a large difference viewing thru the built in screen, but when viewed in 3D, that could be more noticeable. Manual settings here might be required for iris and gain.

Edit: I checked the second test clips I did with the IR remote (4 clips total). This time, the first pair, again the start sync was off 6/100th's of a second. After that the next 3 clips were perfectly in sync matching up on the exact 100th's place on my phone, not every other clip like before. I'm not going to spend any more time worrying about it right now, it's good to know it's that precise with the remote, but I really want the sync cable.

This line intentionally left blank.

Last edited by tomtastic; 02-29-2016 at 05:28 PM.
tomtastic is offline  
post #8 of 305 Old 03-01-2016, 12:20 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 12,404
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1313 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
constantly keeping the cameras in phase thru an external box that regulates the two cameras so they're always firing at the same time and that they don't eventually drift apart. My cable will just be a start/stop sync but from what I've been reading and as is the case with GoPro, start/stop sync should work well enough.

Just wondering, has anyone had any problems with sync with the GoPro since this will be the same concept?
Tom- first off- Genlock does not require an "external box." However in a studio environment, we do use a time base to send 'House sync" to all devices, cameras, switchers, character generators etc. In the field, the genlock process is quite a bit simpler- One camera is assigned as the Master clock. All other cameras, are assigned as slaves. Then all cameras are set for free run time code, drop frame. This is very important. Next, a short cable is connected between the master and each slave camera one at a time and the slave locked onto the master in a few seconds, then the cable is disconnected and the next slave is locked. There is no need to keep a cable connected as the clocks in these cameras are phase locked accurate for as long as a couple days, even when powered off because a lithium battery keeps the clocks locked.

The start, stop, and zoom control of the 3D sync controllers do not genlock as I stated before, but they do a pretty good job of starting and stopping to the frame. Some devices have a digital error readout where you can see how far out the frame sync is. These devices also have a zoom control that allows you to zoom the lenses simultaneously. Mine does a near perfect job of zooming with matched focal length. There is a myth that these cameras, go "out of sync" on long clip runs. I can tell you that none of my cameras with or without the sync box lose even one frame from beginning to end and the longest clips I have recorded were for an hour. I use a sound click in the beginning to match up the two clips and also make the same sound near the end. I have also tested with a stobe light flash. Never has one clip drifted over long running clips. I have tested The TD10, my NEX5n and the GoPro Hero 4 silvers. I consider this drift a myth and am so confident it is a myth, I sometimes forget to do the ending sound sync as a check.

According to query to tech support by Barry, I recall, GoPro confirmed the cameras actually are genlocked in the 3+ Black 3D system. The earlier Hero 3D version 2 was only a start stop sync mechanism. My own tests, confirm that the Hero 3+ Black sync/genlock cable does not phase lock the color so I prefer to use manual WB and raw settings. If using auto white, there is a possibility of a color mismatch between the GoPro cameras. If you manual white, then any color correction you apply to one will also work equally well to the other in post. Using auto tracking WB can be a nightmare to correct in post.

Exposure ( electronic (( E.V. and ISO) and iris) is much easier to correct as the parameters are so much simpler than color. Here you just have to adjust the brightness for proper black and peak white and done. But, I found that auto exposure with the GoPros and my other cameras is better left to auto than manual. Most of the time a lag in exposure change will never be noticed as the video plays. Set the shutter speed of your cameras to manual and match them in settings too.

Bottom line is 3D without genlock is good enough with minimal motion on static scenery shots. Scenes with lots of movement, people walking, water falls, and fountains, any movement at all, and the 3D becomes soft looking until the motion stops and then sharpens. Motion in the scene, genlock is a must.

My 3D videos and more
Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752
Don Landis is offline  
post #9 of 305 Old 03-01-2016, 12:35 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 12,404
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1313 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
The other advantage is size and weight, which I really wanted to have a small go anywhere rig, something I wouldn't be able to do on my own with cameras that have genlock. So basically I can take it anywhere I can take the Z10k. The rail is 6.3" long, which should handle at the minimum I.A. 3.3"s close up work and 4.3" better range for handheld work. I have a longer 12" rail that will accept the same baseplates, so quick swapping is another feature. Beyond that I will have to prepare a different rail setup.
Here's some ideas, in case you haven't seen my GoPro 3D setups that are light weight and easy to take anywhere. I carry them clipped off to a D-ring on my belt while shooting with the Z10K of my NEX5n still camera, out for the day of tours. The first one uses the traditional GoPro configuration with a sync cable. The second one uses the Hero 4 silver cameras, no sync cable and wider IA
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P1020635s.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	246.2 KB
ID:	1287249   Click image for larger version

Name:	LanParteplus 2GoProsFronts.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	168.2 KB
ID:	1287273  

My 3D videos and more
Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752
Don Landis is offline  
post #10 of 305 Old 03-01-2016, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Well, that's reassuring, Don. I was hoping to get precise frame match even when shooting water fountains and such. If the frames start on the same 100th of a second I would assume they would, but wasn't sure on the drift "myth". I don't think it could be really a myth but I haven't got that far in my tests yet. I'm hoping you're right. Yes, I know in broadcast they're just daisy chained, but in 3D it requires an external controller. You can still just jam lock them together for 3D too, but it doesn't solve the drift issue.

I'm planning on having the zoom in sync too. I will miss the zoom indicator on the Panasonic cameras that indicate precisely what focal length the lens is extended too. These Sony's only indicate what F stop is used which isn't a precise indication. But if they're in sync it shouldn't matter.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #11 of 305 Old 03-01-2016, 11:14 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 12,404
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1313 Post(s)
Liked: 373
Quote:
Yes, I know in broadcast they're just daisy chained, but in 3D it requires an external controller. You can still just jam lock them together for 3D too, but it doesn't solve the drift issue.
I used to daisy chain my genlocked cameras and leave then connected because most of my multicamera shoots were all done in one location and if a battery went dead, reconnecting the cameras was a waste of time. Better to just leave them connected and only remove at the end of the day. I worked a couple of jobs shooting multi camera sporting events from widely separated cameras. In a 3 day event, we had one of 15 cameras all genlocked lose sync on the 3rd day. The reason was the 3 v lithium button went dead in the guy's camera. We were shooting several brands of cameras too. Once you genlock, there is really no need to keep them wired up. In 3D it is the same thing but syncing the lens is a different issue and that is where the "box" comes into play. I've worked on outdoor concerts, remotes for Comedy Central, and High School sporting events all using wireless genlocked cameras. Trust me, drift is not an issue. In 3D, however, you really do have to match the frames with either a strobe flash to both cams or a sound sync. Then you'll only get as close as a half frame or less. That is why shooting at high frame rates can achieve closer frame match in real time. More stuff for you to think about in your design.

My 3D videos and more
Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752
Don Landis is offline  
post #12 of 305 Old 03-01-2016, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
My concern with drift is only for 3D, if you're off as much as a half frame it is noticeable as I discovered in my NoPro fountain test. The water was noticeably not in sync, I traced it back to that one camera was starting slightly after the other, about a half frame. However, if they were precisely matched on startup then it's just a matter of them staying in phase. I have not tested that yet on my AX1003D rig but it's something I will look at pretty soon.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #13 of 305 Old 03-01-2016, 04:59 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 12,404
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1313 Post(s)
Liked: 373
tom in 3D when you match the clips up there is no drift. I can't emphasize that fact enough. However when you match the clips on the timeline to a sync marker, lining them up you must line up the pulses as close as possible but maintain frame border lineup or you can't edit properly. It is here that the two may not be a match, and your frame edges will be off say 1/3 of a frame. It can never be nore than 1/2 a frame because then you just push one clip ahead to where the sync pulses are the closest together. Use quantize to frames turned on.

Now once the pulses are lined up as close as possible, a clip ending sync marker will be exactly the same fraction of the frame off sync. That is not drift but just that the clips did not run start at precisely the same moment in time. Just slice off the extra at both ends and then pair. Simple as that. With a genlocked camera set, the pulses will be spot on match and the frames precisely lined up with the same number of frames for each camera.

My 3D videos and more
Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752
Don Landis is offline  
post #14 of 305 Old 03-02-2016, 05:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3DBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 1,378
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked: 161
Edius appears to do a good match up when you auto pair the videos.
3DBob is offline  
post #15 of 305 Old 03-03-2016, 11:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
I did a little experimenting this morning on 4X crop zooming with native 3840x2160 from the Sony A7SII. I made an Edius crop preset with the layouter tool and set the crop at exactly 1920x1080. I was curious to see just how well in the real world this crop would hold up. I took the video clip at 240mm, which is the long end of a 24-240 Sony FE lens. The 4x crop made it effectively a 960mm lens. I'm happy to say that the crop held up well and the video looked beautiful and sharp as a tack.. Amazing versatility. Since, I'll be rendering almost everything at 1080, I couldn't be happier with what can be done with this 4K content.
Barry C is offline  
post #16 of 305 Old 03-03-2016, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Yeah, 4k is more of a step up that I initially thought. About a year ago I had planned on just sticking with 1080 for the foreseeable future but 4k really extends the range of HD with crop factor, color depth and full resolution future proofing. 4x HD has it's advantages.

Have you had any problems with heat on the A7SII with 4k?

I noticed my AX100's get a little warm and a fan will kick on after awhile. The fan is actually pretty quiet and you really have to listen for it to notice it. I plan on using an external mic anyway so it shouldn't pick that up. 4k is more of a drain on the batteries too. The system will change the expected expectancies based on record settings. I bought 4500mah batteries, they show 6hr for AVCHD, for HD 50mbps and 4k the time is cut down to under 4hrs.

Really can't wait to start shooting in 3D with these but I still have some more work on the rig and cable. Hopefully have it done this weekend.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #17 of 305 Old 03-03-2016, 02:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
The A7SII with latest firmware update doesn't have an overheating problem. It can get a little warm, but not overly so. There is a 29 minute 59 second limit on clip length with 100mbps 4K. The battery is a bit anemic at 1050mAh. Probably about 45minutes or so of 4K recording. With the extended grip, which holds 2 batteries, this should double. I rarely, if ever, will shoot a 30 minute clip, or even shoot 45 minutes of video in general out of water in one day. Most of my out of water shooting consists of clips of 3 minutes or less.
With timelapse, I should easily be able to get over 400 frames on 1 battery and I plan to use the extended grip which should give me close to 1000.
Your camcorders have more battery options, which is nice. Also, when shooting 4K on the A7SII, the viewfinder will dimm, I'm sure as a way of preserving battery. I suspect the camcorder, with its more robust battery doesn't do this. Do you have a slomo option on the AX100? Does it have a timelapse mode? If so, that could open up some very interesting possibilities. I plan to start doing a bit of 3D timelapse this summer as well with the Gopro Dual.

Last edited by Barry C; 03-04-2016 at 11:13 AM.
Barry C is offline  
post #18 of 305 Old 03-03-2016, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
There's 720p120 but from the results I've seen on YT, they looked too soft to me. I will probably use 1080p60 in XAVC-s 50mbps for over cranking, no lower. Wish it had 1080p120. The FZ1000 (bridge camera) has this and is cheap but I'm not sure because of other issues on that camera. I think I'll wait till next year and see what's out. The Sony A6300 is releasing soon priced at 1k. It has 1080p120 100mbps recording. I'll wait until I read the reviews on this one but right now it's at the top of my list. It's interchangeable lens mount and APS-C, 4k and the price point is pretty nice. Yeah, Canon and Nikon are getting left in the dust for 4k. They're nice for stills but if you want 4k, Sony is the only real choice.

I haven't looked at the time lapse options yet. I think it's in the photo mode. It takes 20 mega pixel stills. I think if everything works ok with the sync cable I could use it for 3D stills too which would be an upgrade from the 3D1 and W3, but much heavier. 4k is nice because it's higher MP than the stills are on both of those cameras. 8.3 vs 7 on the W3 and 6 on the 3D1. Of course for stills a dslr would be much better option. I'll likely play around with it at some point. Also not sure on dslr option for 3D, just because the bodies are so much wider. In order to shoot close in (under 15 feet), you would need to induce more aggressive toe-in. I'm already worried about it on these AX100's, but you can get the lenses pretty close 3.3-4.3 for toe in, 4.3 gives you better toe-in for as close as 5.5"s but the keystone distortion will be most noticeable in this position.

I just received in some screw on wide angle adapters. They aren't too bad, gives a nice wide angle, no distortion or vignetting, but really no zoom thru with these. They get blurry really quick so just for use in wide. I haven't looked at any ultra wide yet adapters yet. I did get some UV filters ordered, haven't come in. Mostly to protect the Sony lenses and of course to take out some glare. I like the built in ND filters, really quick adjustment there. Wish the Z10k and 3DA1 had those.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #19 of 305 Old 03-04-2016, 11:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I just received in some screw on wide angle adapters. They aren't too bad, gives a nice wide angle, no distortion or vignetting, but really no zoom thru with these. They get blurry really quick so just for use in wide. I haven't looked at any ultra wide yet adapters yet. I did get some UV filters ordered, haven't come in. Mostly to protect the Sony lenses and of course to take out some glare. I like the built in ND filters, really quick adjustment there. Wish the Z10k and 3DA1 had those.
I just bought a few ND filters- a 6, 8, & 10 stops. I envy you with the built ins! I've never tried the dial up adjustable ones so not sure if they are as good as single dedicated ones. Sure would be convenient, though. Very tempting to get a 2-10 stop dialup.

As for 2 DSLR 3D, probably not the best bet unless you're doing the 1 meter type IA that Don does.

PS: Just got my third Sony FE 28mm 2.0 lens yesterday. The first 2 were soft down about 15% of the left side. This one is soft on the right side. Appears to be an element tilt issue, if I had to guess. It's going back to B&H today and the 4th one is on its way. Hope I don't have to go through 10 of these to get a good one. Quality control? What's that?

Last edited by Barry C; 03-04-2016 at 11:28 AM.
Barry C is offline  
post #20 of 305 Old 03-04-2016, 03:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
3DBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 1,378
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 476 Post(s)
Liked: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
PS: Just got my third Sony FE 28mm 2.0 lens yesterday. The first 2 were soft down about 15% of the left side. This one is soft on the right side. Appears to be an element tilt issue, if I had to guess. It's going back to B&H today and the 4th one is on its way. Hope I don't have to go through 10 of these to get a good one. Quality control? What's that?

Barry, what is B&H's reaction to this issue. I'm surprised they would go to 4 lenses without some discussion with Sony.
3DBob is offline  
post #21 of 305 Old 03-04-2016, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
I just bought a few ND filters- a 6, 8, & 10 stops. I envy you with the built ins! I've never tried the dial up adjustable ones so not sure if they are as good as single dedicated ones. Sure would be convenient, though. Very tempting to get a 2-10 stop dialup.

As for 2 DSLR 3D, probably not the best bet unless you're doing the 1 meter type IA that Don does.

PS: Just got my third Sony FE 28mm 2.0 lens yesterday. The first 2 were soft down about 15% of the left side. This one is soft on the right side. Appears to be an element tilt issue, if I had to guess. It's going back to B&H today and the 4th one is on its way. Hope I don't have to go through 10 of these to get a good one. Quality control? What's that?
I was going to say, you should try out the adjustable ND filters, easier than swapping. Theoretically you could shoot as close as 7.5 feet with a dslr without toe in. According to the 30:1 rule. That is for every 30 feet 1 feet of interaxial. Some things would be harder to do like zoom, you have to line up the frames, prime lenses would be easiest. I looked at the reviews on that 28, you're not the only one complaining about it. I'd just ditch it and go with the 16-35.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #22 of 305 Old 03-04-2016, 05:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I was going to say, you should try out the adjustable ND filters, easier than swapping. Theoretically you could shoot as close as 7.5 feet with a dslr without toe in. According to the 30:1 rule. That is for every 30 feet 1 feet of interaxial. Some things would be harder to do like zoom, you have to line up the frames, prime lenses would be easiest. I looked at the reviews on that 28, you're not the only one complaining about it. I'd just ditch it and go with the 16-35.
I have the 16-35 already. It's excellant!! However, it's a f4 and, although with the lowlight iso capabilities of the camera it should be good for astro- I'm figuring about iso 6400 or 12800 should do- I'd still like to have the extra stops. The 28 is a f2 and I plan to stop it down to f2.8 for nightime use to eliminate any possible vignetting. The other reason I want it is the 16-35 is pretty big and heavy and the 28 is very small and light. It would be great as a general purpose daytime carry lens. 28mm is right about where I like to be for an all purpose lens.

Bob, B&H is great- so far- and I get the impression that they won't grouse even if I go through 10 of them. I figure if Sony gets enough of them back from B&H, maybe they'll get off their ass and find out what's going on at the production line in China

Last edited by Barry C; 03-05-2016 at 07:38 AM.
Barry C is offline  
post #23 of 305 Old 03-04-2016, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
Cancel the B&H order and order it from Adorama. Maybe you'll get a different batch and get a good one.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #24 of 305 Old 03-04-2016, 06:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Cancel the B&H order and order it from Adorama. Maybe you'll get a different batch and get a good one.
You have a point, but I'll stick with B&H- at least for another 4 or 5 lenses, if necessary I really like doing business with them.
Barry C is offline  
post #25 of 305 Old 03-05-2016, 09:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
I spent a little time this morning researching the pros and cons of variable ND filters and have come to the conclusion- no huge surprise- that although convient and in some cases satisfactory, there are issues and downsides depending on the strength of the setting and the type of subject matter being filmed. I'm no longer tempted to get or use one and will stick to the fixed variety.
Barry C is offline  
post #26 of 305 Old 03-05-2016, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
It's a time saver most of all, you can adjust it on the fly vs having to remove and replace. If these Sony's didn't have built in ND filters I would only go with adjustable. I received my UV filters so they're on now, went with Hoya. Don't have to worry about damaging the camera's glass.

Received my 90 degree micro usb adapter but unfortunately the Sony cable is not a micro usb cable so it won't work, very similar. I will not be able to get the cameras together at the closest setting with the sync cable. Will have to use remote if set to 3.3"'s apart.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #27 of 305 Old 03-05-2016, 11:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
It's a time saver most of all, you can adjust it on the fly vs having to remove and replace. If these Sony's didn't have built in ND filters I would only go with adjustable. I received my UV filters so they're on now, went with Hoya. Don't have to worry about damaging the camera's glass.

Received my 90 degree micro usb adapter but unfortunately the Sony cable is not a micro usb cable so it won't work, very similar. I will not be able to get the cameras together at the closest setting with the sync cable. Will have to use remote if set to 3.3"'s apart.
As regards to ND filters, since you have built in NDs, its a moot point, but if you didn't, after what I've been reading, I'd be trying to talk you out of the adjustables

Are there any other cable options out there for you to be able to connect the cameras? Also, I just watched the car show piece you posted on the other thread and was curious about which camera you used, the 3DA1 or the Z10000? Did you edit it in Vegas or PD? Sure were some beautiful cars!!
Barry C is offline  
post #28 of 305 Old 03-05-2016, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tomtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked: 305
The first day I shot with the 3DA1 but found out later I had the wrong WB set. I only used the first couple clips at the beginning from the 3DA1 footage. Second day I shot all with Z10k and reshot a lot that I had done with the 3DA1. Editing in Vegas Pro then output to PD for title work and final render.

No other cable options, since it's a proprietary cable, I doubt they make an elbow. Oh, well. I'll have to use the remote for the closest lens setup.

The thing about ND filters is it's not always clear which filter level you need until you can see how it looks and compare it to the next level above/below. Adjustable ND filters you can go back and forth quickly without having to remove and replace. Saves a lot of time, but if you don't mind taking 3 or 4 filters along and take the time to swap that works too.

The AX100's have a nice ND setup built in. You can set to auto, or you can have it manual and the screen will tell you what level it suggests. I think this will be a very nice feature to have.

This line intentionally left blank.
tomtastic is offline  
post #29 of 305 Old 03-05-2016, 04:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
The AX100's have a nice ND setup built in. You can set to auto, or you can have it manual and the screen will tell you what level it suggests. I think this will be a very nice feature to have.
Indeed it will!

As for individual ND filters, it's really pretty quick and easy. I just take a light reading at the subject- waterfall, forinstance- and then do the quick math in my head for the shutter speed I want to achieve and then just screw on the appropriate filter. No guesswork. However, for this to work, you have to pretty much know the endpoint shutter speed you want. I keep a note file on my smartphone with desired endpoints for various situations.
Barry C is offline  
post #30 of 305 Old 03-09-2016, 09:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Barry C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Everyone's gone silent. So, I'm curious:
1. Don, how's the new projector? I recall you were supposed to get it last weekend.
2. Tom, how's the new 4K twin cam rig? Are you getting it dialed in and working out the bugs?
3. Bob, any further work on your custom GP wide IA rig?

I guess my big news is 4th time was the charm. I finally got a good 28mm lens after sending the first 3 back. Also, ordered a programmable slider today from Dynamic Perceptions. Now, I have their whole 3 axis system. Much to learn and experiment with before the next Yosemite trip, weather permitting, in a couple of weeks when my son Ryan's on spring break. It will open up a whole new dimension for shooting 3D with very low angle motion shots as well as for 4K timelapse and video.
3DBob likes this.
Barry C is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 3D Source Components

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off