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post #31 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 01:22 AM
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cakefoo- The problem in dealing with the 4K30fps raw clips from the dji Mavic Pro was not ability to edit efficiently in Vegas Pro. It was the ability to pair the clip with itself to generate a pan stereoscopic clip. My computer seems to not handle it but Tom's older Mac Pro did with no problem. The difference is ( regarding the file) is he used a clip from his Sony AX100. You hinted at something I could test that just occurred to me. I should try the pairing with a clip from my AX53 that is similar to his AX100 to see if your theory holds.

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But it was working for 2D in 4K with the raw files?
Right Tom, no problem editing the dji Mavic Pro clip in Vegas Pro, It was only the pairing that had the problem. If I can't pair a clip made with the AX53 then it looks like the problem is my hardware- ie not enough ram or not enough CPU cores.

Looks like there are a few more things to try before putting this 4K 3D pairing to bed.

BTW- I tried using Edius to pair the raw drone clip and it paired with itself- no problem. It was a quick test because I need to figure out how to do the offset. Edius uses a different process to create the pairing that doesn't easily lend itself to changing the copy of the clip's start point for stereo. In Edius the pairing process is done in a bin, not on the timeline, so slipping the start point or trimming the length of a clip is not available. If the two clips in the bin are different length they will pair but the heads and tail missing the sister clip extension will just pair and not be 3D. This can be trimmed later. If there is a way to do this, like in Vegas, I haven't figured it out yet.

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post #32 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
I should try the pairing with a clip from my AX53 that is similar to his AX100 to see if your theory holds.
That would be a great way to know if it's the files. But if you can import them and they work fine, I wouldn't think there'd be an issue for 3D either. You're probably right on hardware being issue.

Pairing for 3D in VP, there's only two ways that I know of. One, in the library bin before you add to timeline and two- add both to timeline in two different tracks (or one for this method and duplicate) then pair.

One thing to try, this could be the issue, although since it worked for 1080p maybe you already did this or it's not the issue. Try duplicating the files (in the file folder) before you import to VP and add -L and -R to the file name or whatever you use for two camera system you probably already have something. I've been doing a batch rename on my files for the AX1003D and adding that to the file names to keep them straight before they go into VP.

So you'll import them twice like two left right streams then dump on timeline then offset then pair. Though I'm confused why it worked for 1080p so probably not the problem.

Yes, could be hardware, like I said, not often but I have seen the timeline go gray and it will say media offline but it seems to be because the system is bogged down. Doesn't happen that often on my system but I have seen it a few times.

Yes, I see in specs VP needs 16gb memory for 4K, so below that could be the problem. More cores or just a faster 6 or 8 core system if it's older. My stock cpu was only a 2.26ghz 8-Core and replaced it with a 3.33hz 12 core which bumped it up considerably but newer Intel 8 cores I'm sure are much faster even with fewer cores.

Other thing it could be is gpu, mine can display 4K to 3 monitors, just using two right now but I might add another 4K 2D monitor here. Again, confusing if it works in 2D, if you can set project to 3840x2160 and you can work with files on timeline then I don't see what issue is for pairing 3D.

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post #33 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 09:33 AM
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Finished the test results and made some progress.

Vegas Pro-
AX53 clip responded the same as the clip from the drone! So it appears it is Vegas Pro that can't do it on my hardware.

Edius- OK, this is going to be complicated but pairing Drone clip with itself worked. But no way to test 3D because my first test had no offest.
Test with the AX53 clip, same problem, It worked but no way to test the 3D due to no offset.

I plan to spend the rest of the day researching easy way to offset a clip in the bin for pairing. Or pairing in the timeline. I admit I'm still new to all the tricks and hidden features in Edius. But I've been a long veteran of Vegas since before Sony bought it from Sound Forge. Plus a graduate of Sony University on Vegas Pro and a long time official beta site for Sony, so I have a good knowledge of what can and can't be done. But, that experience growth ends with v13 now.

So one last test on Edius and try to make the pair demonstrate 3D.

I took a clip from AX53 into Vegas Pro and set a heads reference in the timeline. Then I rendered this clip with a good start point using Vegas render As XAVS 3840x2160 with a Long GOP to a new clip I will label AX53 -1.MP4
Next I will create a copy of the original AX53 trimmed to the reference start point and then line it up. Now slide the clip to the right for 3 frames as compared to the original. This leaves a gap so I pulled the clip beginning and recover 3 frames so both clips have the same length after trimming the tail on the copy. Now I render the second timeline copy to the XAVC render.

Just for fun I tested the pairing of these two in Vegas again they failed as before. (media offline).

I opened up Edius and added the two clips from the AX53 to the bin and paired them. Then viewed the pair and had 3D with occlusions so I flipped the two clips to correct the left -right error and voila! spectacular 3D as good as you all saw with the drop box 1080p drone clip.

The quality looked great but may look even better with a 4K monitor that supports 4K with 3D. I know my Sony projector does not.

So, this has been an academic learning session as I really don't plan for now to do this in a project. It's just too much work for no apparent benefit due to industry limitations and lack of 4K3D support. Maybe in the future, but not now. If anything I've learned quite a bit and enough to know how to do 3D with my drone with several options. 1080px1920 at 30, 60, and 120 fps will have to do for now.

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post #34 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 09:51 AM
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Again, confusing if it works in 2D, if you can set project to 3840x2160 and you can work with files on timeline then I don't see what issue is for pairing 3D.
It's no different than how it is with 1080p and the stereo pairing, just the numbers get bigger. Keep in mind all the Vegas Pro does to speed up your hands on editing is working with a proxy of the original clips. There is no destructive editing like the original Avid did. So the cpu and ram requirements for a single 4K clip are doubled for two that are paired in the editor even though you see it as one clip paired. it really isn't. That is just a thumb nail you are working with. But the moment you play the timeline even in draft mode it needs to process the real clips, now with 3D we double the number of clips being processed. This is why when planning a 3D edit system your goal should be to size it for handling 4 HD clips at the same time at full fps rate. That's because during a transistion you want it to play 4 clips or 2 pairs through a 3D dissolve. Add to that any CG or PIP needs of the project. Now switch to 4K and we multiply everything by 4. Because we have 4 times as many pixels to process as with 2K.

BTW- My graphics card doesn't support 4K monitors either. It's a fantastic card for 3D HD on 4 monitors, but there it tops out. (FirePro3D v8800) I bought that on on the recommendation of my instructor at Sony U.

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post #35 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 11:17 AM
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Maybe Barry would know if there's a way in Edius to pair on timeline like VP, I don't know, never used it. My 3DA1 clips are genlocked so I just pair up in the library bin usually in VP. But the AX100 clips sometimes require clipping and sliding before pairing so I always use that method with those. You're on at least build 428 right with VP? I'm using 428 still as we had to downgrade builds because of that render problem with AVC.

Yeah, as I said, 4K3D is pretty niche, anyone with a 2014-2016 LG 4K could play it back on YT if it's a top/bottom format but not many upload like that anyway. I've been doing it but 4K3D isn't an industry standard yet but maybe in the future it will happen.

For editing on my system, 1080p I just set the LG 4K to 1080p and leave it at that so I can see in full HD 3D on that screen, VP won't send 3D right to second monitor if it's in 3840x2160 so I have to downscale LG. I also have the preview window opened up on my 28" 4K monitor and it is opened up to full 1080p 1/4 of screen although it's locked in top/bottom if I'm using the LG in 3D at same time. They both play back simultaneously just fine.

For 4K, I have been leaving monitors at full 4K and then I just set project to anaglyph and use the preview window on monitor 1 which scales it down to 1080p. I need to play around with it again with 4K, but I'm in a big 1080p 3D project and want to get it finished. I don't have a lot of space left on my drive, have to remove stuff when project is done out of working bin. Things are definitely better after last year's upgrade, I actually couldn't render anything over 12 minutes long as I would get audio problems and then it would just drop out altogether. So VP 13 is finally running smooth but now I guess it's time to get 14, oh well.

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post #36 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Don, Have you tried, cutting the video in Vegas and then combining in Edius? Edius likes to combine automatically. So, as long as the two videos are same length, but start and end at different frames, they should combine okay, then you need to do the 3D adjustment and see if the separation is working in anaglyph.
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post #37 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 01:36 PM
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Tom- I figured out how to slip the two clips in Edius today and was able to create a nice 3D from the drone original. I had problems rendering the 4K3D clip as most of the common render presets for 3D don't allow 4K rendering. But I found one that I think works as I could look at a piece of it on my 2K monitor. When you get a moment, can you download the clip and look at it on your 4K 3D monitor?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j13zyl5tkf...04K30.mp4?dl=0

Be sure to download the file as I'm not sure about the Drop Box player.


If I render with the standard 2K resolution settings it looks as good as the first one I uploaded which was first converted to 2K and then paired in Vegas Pro. Both use the 3 frame offset.

I'm happy to learn how to do the offset in Edius now as this will allow me to do all the editing and pairing from the 4K30 Drone original with no conversion. Then for 3D playback here, I'll just render the final to 2K resolution.

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post #38 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Don, Have you tried, cutting the video in Vegas and then combining in Edius? Edius likes to combine automatically. So, as long as the two videos are same length, but start and end at different frames, they should combine okay, then you need to do the 3D adjustment and see if the separation is working in anaglyph.
Yes, I did that but it still requires too many renderings.

The trick I figured out how to do everything in edius is as follows:

1. Import the 4K 2D clip into Edius Bin then in windows file manager make a copy of the drone clip with a different file name.
2. Import the copy
3. Set the preview monitor for Preview, not REC
4. Drag the bin original into the preview window. Find the start point and set it with the inpoint.
5. Find the end point of your scene and mark it. Note the duration and the start point.
6. Now drag the copy to the Preview window and set the same start point PLUS 3 frames and mark it.
7. Set the same end point plus 3 frames and mark it. Note the duration to be sure it is the same as the original.

When you mark the in and out points in the preview window it automatically updates the bin clip.

Now select both clips and set as stereoscopic.

Check the monitor and if there is occlusion then the left/right needs swapped. abort and flip the two clips in the bin with the copy on top and pair again. The 3D should be obvious. Now drag the clip to the timeline for further editing.

From the timeline all 4K video is resized for my 2K monitor. But is I render the clip to a file format like an MP4 in 4K windows media player doesn't auto down size and wants to only show a quarter of the picture. This is a problem with TB format or SBS as the 3D can't be determined.

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post #39 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 06:09 PM
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Was this one supposed to be 3D or just 2D? That link was just 2D but it was 4k though, wasn't in top/bottom format. Maybe you posted wrong link?

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post #40 of 44 Old 04-29-2017, 11:25 PM
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Tom, I rendered it in 3D top bottom settings but as I said I can't view it here. When I download the file and try to play it with windows media player the image is just the upper left corner and is a vertically squashed part.

If it isn't 3D at your end then I guess the 3D 4K render settings don't work. Thanks for checking anyway.


Time to pull the experiments off Drop Box. I need the free space for other stuff.

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post #41 of 44 Old 05-01-2017, 11:21 AM
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So I took a look at one of my 4K3D projects I still had the raw files for and tested out the monitor options. Tried to set 3D screen to 3840x2160 but as my earlier attempts revealed there is no way to preview at that resolution in 3D once it's at that resolution.

Once you set at that resolution the extra 3D options on LG screen disappear like row interleaved, checkerboard, etc. It still has SbS and top bottom so I set to top/bottom but then there's overlap problem because you have to have screen scaling set to 3rd level for the preview to go to the second monitor, otherwise if I keep both monitors at 4k and 1:1 pixel mapping (no adaptive scaling) it will put the preview window between the two screens. Weird.

So putting scaling on it will send to second screen which is great but then the image is too large with scaling and it doesn't map right for 3D with top/bottom enabled. So basically have to keep 3D monitor at 1080p which is fine, then all the options for 3D appear on LG, I tested with row interleaved and checkerboard, seems ok. I typically use top/bottom as that's the final render output too so I'll stick with that.

I checked playback efficiency again while I was in this project since it's 4K and I have to set preview quality to "preview auto" and then the best I can get is about 15fps avg with the 30p raw files. Or I have to leave at draft. If I set to "preview full" it will top out at 6 or 7fps on playback and is quite bad for smooth editing. Between the two I prefer preview auto even at half frames per second as the quality is full 1080p at least vs low quality draft mode: yuk.

Of course playing the final render output in full 4K3D is fine in a media player as long as it's coming from SSD. I just enable top/bottom from LG. I'm not sure if there's much I can do to speed up 4K within VP. My gpu is about the best I can get for this old machine, processors maxed out, can't get boot volume installed anywhere other than regular drive bay. Can't remember what issue was now it was over a year ago, something about missing bios or something but couldn't get around it. Wouldn't install to PCIe drive. But this was on a Mac with bootcamp. I think I'll just have to live with it for now and look at upgrading in a year or two. 1080p 3D works great though, full quality playback on timeline and second monitor.

edit: so after a few more tests preview auto mode which auto drops resolution to best available performance is working a little better but not always. It auto drops to 1080p and it will hit 30fps usually and then it will drop to about half, then speed back up. Then other times it won't go over 15fps. Yeah, could be SSD is still too slow for raw files, would probably be fine with some custom proxy files with compressed bit rate.

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post #42 of 44 Old 05-02-2017, 07:29 AM
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Tom, I use a bottle neck analyzer. With this you can look at where things are getting hit in real time while playing the timeline, or rendering. Is it the CPU, are you maxing out your ram, or is it the storage that can't keep up feeding frames fast enough? The bottleneck analyzer can show you where you need to make improvements.

In my case it was always the storage, thus why I went to the fastest PCIe storage possible for the video files. Problem solved with 2K 3D. Now it seems with 4K 30p even 2D the bottleneck is the CPU.

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post #43 of 44 Old 05-02-2017, 08:57 AM
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I forgot, I've used task manager to check before. Looks like it's only using up to 50 percent of cpu when it spikes, usually less (about 38 percent). Shows Intel Xeon x5680 12 Core @3.33 ghz, boost to 3.46.

Memory is using 9.4gb with 4K video playing in VP (34 percent of total).

Disk usage, clicking on C drive it's only peaking at 100kb/s-144kb/s and shows 0 or 1 percent usage when playing. I tried playing 4K video file output and then it's showing about 10mb/s usage for WMP so the report seems to be working. VP downgrades the preview quality too so might not be disc usage if it's only peaking at 1 percent.

So maybe GPU although it's a radeon 7950 800mhz 3GB which should be enough. I'll have to run some more tests. But preview full or better is dropping frames on timeline for 4K. Preview auto works pretty good but it will drop once in awhile. I'll see if there's anything in preferences that will help.

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post #44 of 44 Old 05-02-2017, 10:53 AM
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Well, I'm stumped. Nothing in preferences for video seemed to have any effect to get preview full to work better, that would be for full 4K preview vs. 1080p. Only thing that had an effect was clicking "adjust size and quality for optimal playback" but it lowers quality too much so I'm leaving it unchecked. 4K to 1080p preview works ok in preview auto or Draft full for full fps with occasional drop of frame rate then it returns.

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