Is 3D TV the next big thing for 2010? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 379 Old 01-04-2010, 08:35 PM
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The colored glasses are the 1950's style anaglyph 3D process, which compromises color rendition.

The newer TV technology uses shutter glasses with time-sequential 3D, they blink the R and L images on screen while the glasses block the image in the opposite eye.

Do I think 3D will be popular? Not really, because you need:

1) Some expensive glasses, wired or wireless, connected to the display.

2) A totally darkened room. How many watch TV in the dark today?

That last deserves an explanation. In a theater, the room is dark, but while wearing the glasses, your eyes cross slightly to give the 3D effect to the image. But if you look at anything else in the theater, like a lighted EXIT sign, you see a double image, caused by the deliberate eye misconvergence. If you focus on the sign and converge you eyes on that, then the image is misconverged with ghosts. In a lighted room, you will either have the image in 3D AND the rest of the room ghosted, OR if you look at the room, your eyes converge properly and the TV has a double image with ghosting.

That's why theaters are darkened, and it's especially important with a 3D production. But my wife refuses to "watch TV in a cave", so I may have 3D in the Home Theater, but not the family room.

It's kind of an attitude difference. To me, video is a fulltime process. To her, video is part time along with reading, sewing, or yakking on the phone. But 3D video simply MUST be fulltime, there is no other choice.

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post #92 of 379 Old 01-04-2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasmacat View Post

This may be a stupid question but here goes.
Does anyone remember the 3D commercials from last year's Superbowl or the 3D episode of Medium? You didn't need a 3D TV to watch those - just needed to get the glasses. I remember getting a whole sheet of 3D glasses for my SB party.
Now I admit the 3D was pretty crappy but why do you need a 3D TV?

Red-green (or red-blue) glasses like they used with the 3D-episode of Chuck? -> Anaglyph method -> crap

The new techs are much better, require different glasses (but still require glasses - this won't change in the next years).

bye
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post #93 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 02:59 AM
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You also have the Real3D method of polarized light.
Left hand and right hand circular polarized light is projected onto a slightly silver screen the silver helps maintain the the polarization in the reflected light. The viewer wears glasses with one eye left hand circular polarizer, the other right hand ciricular polarizer. The idea with circular polarization is that it is better at maintaining the effect if you tilt your head. But it is worse at rejecting the opposite polarity, more likely to suffer ghosting than usuing the older horizontal/vertical polarization system.

The Real3D system was designed for use with dual projectors, but I believe some cinemas use only one projector sequentially. The problem is doing Real3D sequentially with one projector you lose alot of light. 50% due to the sequential and 50% due to the polarizer.

The alternative sequencial shutter system designed for use with one projector has the advantage of losing less light. 50% due to sequencial but no lose due to polarization. It also can use a normal non silvered screen. The downside is the cost of shutter glasses that have to keep in sync.

One problem with 3D films is thay are mastered with a reference white of only 4.5ftL while 2D films have a reference white of 12ftL with peak white of 14ftL. Unfortunately brigher equals perception of better contrast, more detail, and better more vivid colors. Making this worse is the fact that many cinemas will save money by not replacing their lamps frequently enough, so the image is even dimmer.

These methods maintain full color 3D while the anaglyph method compromised color. Personally I do not mind the old anaglgyph method for the occasional viewing I own Journey to the Center of the Earth 3D which uses this method on its home version. I do however look forward to its release in the new Blu-ray 3D format so it can be watched in 3D full color. For 3D viewing I hope to use a dual projector setup with polarizers.
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post #94 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 06:10 AM
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3D is a numbers game if there ever was one.

First, I don't think anyone seriously believes they're going to buy a 3DTV in the next 2 years and will be watching eveything in 3D. Heck, I'd guess that most prolly don't anticipate more than 10% of their overall viewing, I'd bet. Maybe a few movies and events a WEEK, at most.

Now, recognizing that, it would be difficult for me to anticipate loads of folks upgrading a television that they spent thousands of dollars on in the last year or two JUST for 3D when 3D will likely represent just a sliver of the content they'll be watching.

Sure, those with deep pockets, or the incessant need for bleeding edge tech will scoop it up nearly immediately, but they represent a VERY small percentage of the 300 million US consumers.

As a matter of fact, I'd reason that you could very realistically see a substantial backlash against 3D in the US. What with the cost of HD panels over the last 2 years, and BD players, you can bet millions of consumers will be crying foul over the idea that they have to buy a COMPLETELY new panel for the new tech. Watch for it, unless panel prices plummet.

And that's huge. I got my 60" Kuro for a steal at $3300. Now you're telling me that (arguably)the worlds finest display not 12 months removed is incompatible with 3D...AND ditto for the MILLIONS of other panels produced and sold?

The incompatible, existing HDTV's are the killer to me. Unless they introduce serviceable 3D tech that works with these units (which appears very unlikely), the tech
is nearly DOA.

but, whatever.


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post #95 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

Do I think 3D will be popular? Not really, because you need:

1) Some expensive glasses, wired or wireless, connected to the display.

You're talking to an audience here that pays beaucoup bux just to have people come over and adjust their rig. What's a hundred dollars for eyeglass entry into the world of 3D?
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2) A totally darkened room. How many watch TV in the dark today?

Answer: Most people with Kuros, or Kuro wannabees. It's their own little dark chapel. And again, that's most of AVS.
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post

One problem with 3D films is thay are mastered with a reference white of only 4.5ftL while 2D films have a reference white of 12ftL with peak white of 14ftL.

Looks like the emergence of 3D will favor the use of brighter LCD displays. Which will re-ignite the forums' plasma/LCD flame wars.
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Now, recognizing that, it would be difficult for me to anticipate loads of folks upgrading a television that they spent thousands of dollars on in the last year or two JUST for 3D when 3D will likely represent just a sliver of the content they'll be watching.

Sure, those with deep pockets, or the incessant need for bleeding edge tech will scoop it up nearly immediately, but they represent a VERY small percentage of the 300 million US consumers.

That "very small percentage" is much larger here on AVS.
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As a matter of fact, I'd reason that you could very realistically see a substantial backlash against 3D in the US. What with the cost of HD panels over the last 2 years, and BD players, you can bet millions of consumers will be crying foul over the idea that they have to buy a COMPLETELY new panel for the new tech. Watch for it, unless panel prices plummet.

If the non-broadcast 3D tasks can be handled by the disc player, it's not a big deal to buy a newer "3D compatible" BluRay instead of a whole display.
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I got my 60" Kuro for a steal at $3300. Now you're telling me that (arguably) the worlds finest display not 12 months removed is incompatible with 3D...AND ditto for the MILLIONS of other panels produced and sold?

Not necessarily "incompatible." But "brightness-challenged" displays like plasmas may be, in the 3D world, arguably less then optimum versus LCDs.

A pertinent piece from CES about broadcast 3D can be found here.
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post #96 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 12:09 PM
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^ First, it matters not in the least if there's a HUNDRED THOUSAND "AVSers" who would buy this tomorrow. The numbers need to be much greater than that for PROFITABILITY, which, believe you me, is ALL the corp's care about.

2. Yes, the VAST majority of current HDTV's, including Kuros, produced in the last 5 years will NOT be compatible with the proposed 3D tech (that is, HD stereoscopic video).

Here's a list for you:

http://www.3dmovielist.com/3dhdtvs.html

Not a whole helluva lot...prolly a fraction of the percent of the units purchased, as a matter of fact.
And, sigh, the Kuro and other PDP's are PLENTY bright, perhaps not retina-scorching, but more than amply bright to display 3D imagery.

There's no harm in including the tech in new sets if it can be implemented at a reasonable cost, but, the idea that this is going to be the "next big thing" anytime soon isn't really based in reality, IMO.

Time will render the verdict.

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post #97 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

First, I don't think anyone seriously believes they're going to buy a 3DTV in the next 2 years and will be watching eveything in 3D. Heck, I'd guess that most prolly don't anticipate more than 10% of their overall viewing, I'd bet. Maybe a few movies and events a WEEK, at most.

With the current 3D technology nobody ever will be watching everything in 3D. Eye strain and headaches will prevent this. The 3D is for limited viewing time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Now, recognizing that, it would be difficult for me to anticipate loads of folks upgrading a television that they spent thousands of dollars on in the last year or two JUST for 3D when 3D will likely represent just a sliver of the content they'll be watching.

The model is different: People buying new sets will be getting 3D by default. Many of them will buy glasses just out of curiosity.
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Sure, those with deep pockets, or the incessant need for bleeding edge tech will scoop it up nearly immediately, but they represent a VERY small percentage of the 300 million US consumers.

Yes, but this is enough for the start of this technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

As a matter of fact, I'd reason that you could very realistically see a substantial backlash against 3D in the US. What with the cost of HD panels over the last 2 years, and BD players, you can bet millions of consumers will be crying foul over the idea that they have to buy a COMPLETELY new panel for the new tech. Watch for it, unless panel prices plummet.

And that's huge. I got my 60" Kuro for a steal at $3300. Now you're telling me that (arguably)the worlds finest display not 12 months removed is incompatible with 3D...AND ditto for the MILLIONS of other panels produced and sold?

That's the price of technology moving at lightning speed. However, 3D is not the question of living or dying, it is fully downward compatible to 2D which is also enjoyable. For some sensitive people suffering from headache, 3D is even completely unacceptable.

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post #98 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 01:36 PM
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Similar to the obvious brightness advantage of LCDs versus plasmas, the attributes of 3D are/will be far more apparent to the great unwashed multitudes than the vanishing "Kuro blacks" the enthusiasts obsess about here.

That alone makes 3D a huge factor in sales.
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post #99 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 02:02 PM
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http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/05/e...ur-football-t/

" Need any more proof this is the year of 3D? USA Today is reporting ESPN 3D will start broadcasting this summer with a World Cup soccer match, with additional content coming from the Summer X Games (NBA games, and college basketball & football."

There sure are a lot of manufacturers of flat panel manufacturers introducing 3D capable displays in 2010. Surely they must have done some market research as to the prospects of home 3D catching on, before so many of them made very large investments in the R&D of their 3D offerings!

Lots of comments point to the fact that there is not yet very much product available to display on 3D panels. Well, Duh! Why the hell would there be, before there is anything to watch them on?!

When DVD, and Blu-Ray players were first introduced, there was almost no Discs available either, so that is just a specious point, that the doubters are using.

Myself, I am taking a 4D position on the prospects for home 3D displays succeeding or not. I am going to wait and see, in other words allowing time to pass, to see what will actually transpire. (Time+3D=4D)

I notice that a lot of the doubters are also claiming that since so many people already own new HD Displays, that there will be almost no demand for new 3D displays. That is another specious argument, because one would then have to say that there will be almost no demand for new 2D HDTV displays in 2010 either, for the very same reason.

Reality check:

More than 30 million people installed digital, OTA, conversion boxes during 2009. None of those sets are HD models. In addition many millions more are still using digital conversion boxes from the cable companies. There is a huge unfilled HD consumer market out there still, and at some time all those people will have to purchase new HD sets.

That is why, I an not going to just pull forecasts out of my arse, like many people are doing, but just take a 4D, wait and see what actually happens, approach, to how things actually transpire.
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post #100 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

2) A totally darkened room. How many watch TV in the dark today?

Answer: Most people with Kuros, or Kuro wannabees. It's their own little dark chapel. And again, that's most of AVS.

Wow. You really have no relationship at all with reality, do you? Oh well. Makes it easier to read this thread if I can just ignore your posts.

As for 3d in the home... It's a gimmick. Nobody wants to wear damn 3d glasses around the house for day-to-day viewing. What good is 3d on a "tiny" 50" set anyway?

TV manufacturers are running out of marketing gimmicks with which to differentiate themselves. First it was 1080p, then 120Hz and frame interpolation, then 240Hz, then LED... Now 3d. I'm pretty sure this will all blow over.
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post #101 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

TV manufacturers are running out of marketing gimmicks with which to differentiate themselves. First it was 1080p, then 120Hz and frame interpolation, then 240Hz, then LED... Now 3d. I'm pretty sure this will all blow over.

Why? All the other ones you mentioned didn't "blow over" they've become or are quickly becoming the standard. Why do you think this is different.
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post #102 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 02:47 PM
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Why? All the other ones you mentioned didn't "blow over" they've become or are quickly becoming the standard. Why do you think this is different.

I don't mean to say that 1080p or 120Hz will blow over... I just think it's going to be another badge the marketing department can put on the box. "3d capable!" it will say... But nobody will use it. The same way that most people don't use the full potential of 1080p sets, but that's a feature everyone's gotta have.
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post #103 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 03:59 PM
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In 2012 there may be some 3-D TV content available.
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post #104 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 04:25 PM
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In 2012 there may be some 3-D TV content available.

Too late...ESPN will have a channel ready in time for the World Cup and Discovery will start broadcasting in 2011. http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/201...D9D1RE380.html

LCD is the MP3 of the TV world
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post #105 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

Too late...ESPN will have a channel ready in time for the World Cup and Discovery will start broadcasting in 2011. http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/201...D9D1RE380.html

Hmmm, looks like Disney's rolling out a 3D station in June, joining Discovery & ESPN. I think 3D's going to be bigger - way bigger than most anticipate and that it would be very prudent for anyone in the new TV market to add 3D compatibility to their list of considerations.
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post #106 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 07:36 PM
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I was totally sure I didn't need 3d until I heard about ESPN 3d. Suddenly, I can't live without it. Football games, UFC/Boxing matches... sign me up.

3d HD - sports and porn for the win.
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post #107 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 10:47 PM
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Can someone please explain to me (or link me to something) why a 3D capable display is necessary to view something in TV?

There's something I'm missing here. I keep thinking that if the material is filmed for 3D (that double vision stuff), and you have the glasses, what is my set doing that's making a difference?

Any help here is greatly appreciated.
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post #108 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malax View Post

Can someone please explain to me (or link me to something) why a 3D capable display is necessary to view something in TV?

There's something I'm missing here. I keep thinking that if the material is filmed for 3D (that double vision stuff), and you have the glasses, what is my set doing that's making a difference?

Any help here is greatly appreciated.

Because, at least with the Panasonic system, the TV will emit a signal to the shuttered glasses that will turn one eye on while the other eye is blanked. The signal will be 120hz and each eye will get a full 60 frames per second. Live video looks remarkably good. Film frame rates make film not quite as smooth but still better than the 3D I've seen at the theater. Just looking at the Avatar grosses is enough for anyone to see that 3D will become big this year and grow even larger in the next few years. If you think it's a gimmick, then it's a gimmick that people want---and if you haven't seen the shuttered 3D TV, then you haven't seen good 3D. Some manufacturers are going to go with polarized lenses instead of the more expensive shuttered glasses, and perhaps some older TVs might be backward compatible with it, but it's just not the same quality as using shuttered glasses.
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post #109 of 379 Old 01-05-2010, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

What good is 3d on a "tiny" 50" set anyway?

Sounds like yet another good excuse to "upgrade" to a larger display. Which is already the most popular topic in the Display forums here.
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TV manufacturers are running out of marketing gimmicks with which to differentiate themselves. First it was 1080p, then 120Hz and frame interpolation, then 240Hz, then LED... Now 3d. I'm pretty sure this will all blow over.

Those "gimmicks" you cite are the very meat and potatos of AVS discussions.

As for "running out" of marketing gimmicks, I have greater faith in American imagination than some. Along with the observation that a certain kind of person is apparently born every minute.
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post #110 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 05:23 AM
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I have a hard time seeing 3-D TV take flight. Look how slow the vast majority of consumers have been to adopt HDTV even though it offers a clear and hassle-free advantage over standard definition.

Not to mention that watching 3-D gives me a headache. Will this new format be any different?

What's next, lenticular screens and smell-o-vision?
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post #111 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 05:30 AM
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I wear glasses so going to see a 3d movie is weird for me because i have to put the glasses over my regular glasses. There is something cool about 3d,but I am not sure about using it for everyday viewing. The once a week sporting event or movie I could see...but everyday viewing might not be for me.
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post #112 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 07:41 AM
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If 3D becomes the next big thing. How long untill Holographic 3D projection comes the next, next big thing. Having read about the Musion holographic projection system that creates the illusion of three dimensional objects in a clear box, it looks a damn sight more impressive than your average 3D on a screen.
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post #113 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 07:58 AM
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In a year where almost everybody will be watching the SuperBowl on a bigscreen HDTV, he who watches the SuperBowl on bigscreen FHD3D clearly has bragging rights.



It doesn't get much more mainstream than that.

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post #114 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 08:11 AM
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Good article summarizing the current state of 3D TV and its future in today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/bu...ref=technology
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post #115 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 08:18 AM
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people seem to forget, the tv will do 3d but you can watch normal 2d as well. You don't have to watch 3d all day everyday.
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post #116 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neceo View Post

people seem to forget, the tv will do 3d but you can watch normal 2d as well. You don't have to watch 3d all day everyday.

Unless I am watching TV, everything is 3-D all day, everyday.
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post #117 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
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Unless I am watching TV, everything is 3-D all day, everyday.


works for me =) .. i got a ps3 i plan to check out 3d and play games and watch movies in 3d
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post #118 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 08:47 AM
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After seeing Avatatar twice in imax 3d, I'm definitely interested in having it at home, IF I don't have to replace my new sammy 55" panel.
Aside from having a TV with a too-low refresh rate, I don't see why it would require a new display..

I suppose it could be done with a 3D BD player with it's own IR emitter to sync the LCD shutter glasses?

If it requires a new TV, it may be a very long wait for me, since I don't like replacing gear until it either dies, or becomes completely obsolete.
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post #119 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 08:54 AM
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I realize that this thread is focused on 3d for TV and movies, but there is another compelling reason as well....gaming.

For me, 3D is a convergence of several geek technologies, and is right up my alley.

Using an HTPC is not exactly mainstream, but its certainly more common that it was 5 years ago. You get a lot of benefit without a lot of effort if you are a PC hobbyist. I used to have to run Powerstrip and and a VGA to component converter to feed a 1080i only RPTV. Now its easy to get a PC with HDMI out. Supports HDTV timings with its own drivers, over/underscan control, etc.

Front projection isn't for everyone. But if you have to room to do it, its an affordable way to get a huge image. Cost vs resolution and/or contrast...same as the flat panels.

3D technology doesn't add much to the cost if you're already in the market for a new display. The Optoma HD65 is a very popular 720p DLP front projector. MSRP is $699.00 Street price is 10% under that. The newly released Optoma HD66 is also 720p. Increased brightness by 800 lumens, added 3d capability and has the same MSRP.

Now for me, the bulb in my BenQ PE7800 projector (576p) just died. I have a choice of budget 1080p for $999 or budget 720p w/3D capabilities for $699. Both are upgrades to my 576p unit. For the price of two bulbs, I'm going the 720p route with 3D. I already run an HTPC. I need to upgrade to Windows 7 (would do eventually anyway,) buy an Nvidia 3d vision kit and a better video card. It's an $1100 upgrade that at worst nets me: A better, newer projector that is higher res that what I had with a fresh bulb, a Windows 7 OS license for my HTPC, and a better video card for my HTPC that can move to a desktop machine for gaming if I don't like the 3d. That's worst case. I'm betting on getting a lot fun from 3d gaming on a 92" screen...

All the TV and Blu-Ray stuff is just a bonus that adds value to a sweet home theater gaming rig. Now I just need to get off my butt and put the room back together instead of dreaming about it... Isn't it almost tax return time????
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post #120 of 379 Old 01-06-2010, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

In a year where almost everybody will be watching the SuperBowl on a bigscreen HDTV, he who watches the SuperBowl on bigscreen FHD3D clearly has bragging rights.



It doesn't get much more mainstream than that.

So, who's going to pay for all of those 3D glasses at this 3D SuperBowl party? I have not seen anything that says Panasonic TV supplied 3D glasses will work with Vizo's 72" LED 3D TV..... and..... how many 3D glasses do you expect manufacturers to supply with thier TVs? No more than 4 from what I have heard.

Wait until Joe Six Pax figures that out
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