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post #181 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 01:38 PM
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8Mile,

Are the programs you are watching on HD true HD programs "filmed" with 720p or 1080i content or are they upscaled SD programs?
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post #182 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Your previous post was too general and broadcast materials can rival BD but it is all depends on the cost and available bandwidth..

Also, in the states, MPEG 2 is the still the primary broadcast format (if I'm not mistaken), which needs to change.


Anyway, for full-frame SS3D, they would need to provide a new STBs and increase the bandwidth (compared to 2D). Even though it's possible to improve efficiency via the use of H264, it may not be possible to fully support 1080/120 or even 720/120 due to excessive bandwidth cost.


However, it may be possible that they may implement 1080p/48 (24p per eye) to a select few pre-pay films. For the rest, they may implement the cheap horizontal interlaced SS3D (1080i.)

Dish and Direct TV have both been making major strides to HD in mpeg4, almost to the point where mpeg2 is gone, and DirectTV is using DVB-S2 for its newer satellites.
We have Dish and the PQ on most HD is pretty good - variable signs of limitations on bandwidth are visible as blocking in some high-detail rapid-motion scenes but in most cases is up there with the OTA we used to get before we moved (I mean the single channel OTA, not the multiplex cr@p)
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post #183 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

HDtv in Europe is going very slow and often it is not nativeHD.
.

That happened here to start with! There was a lot of SD stuff, widescreen up converted non-HD, poor telecine transfers from film, good transfers from film, and good "live, digital all the way, never filmed" HD that many thought was the best. Then the OTA stuff got mangled as some local stations added weather cam channels and traffic cam channels into their 19 Mb/s streams and the main HD channel really suffered. and on and on.... Even our local public TV channel didn't use its bandwidth for optimal picture quality all the time...
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post #184 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 02:39 PM
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While I agree with several who have made the point that the bandwidth required for 3D is nowhere near double that required for 2D (because the left and right-eye pictures are so similar), still, we are looking at an increased bandwidth requirement for 3D. I think this helps explain DirecTV's enthusiasm for 3D. If cable or telephone want to increase the bandwidth they can deliver to TV sets in homes, they have to string more fiber to millions of homes. In my area, while both telephone and cable use fiber in their networks, neither has fiber all the way into individual homes. Stringing new fiber to millions of homes would be a considerable capital investment.

What does this have to do with DirecTV and 3D? DirecTV has the means in place already to deliver lots of bandwidth to subscribers' satellite receivers -- the ku band and two ka bands. Last year, they received permission from the FCC to use their latest satellite, which just went up, to test yet another band of frequencies (which might or might not be used for consumer TV -- I don't know). I think DirecTV is betting on a high bandwidth future for consumer TV.

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post #185 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSJones View Post

Dish and Direct TV have both been making major strides to HD in mpeg4, almost to the point where mpeg2 is gone, and DirectTV is using DVB-S2 for its newer satellites.
We have Dish and the PQ on most HD is pretty good - variable signs of limitations on bandwidth are visible as blocking in some high-detail rapid-motion scenes but in most cases is up there with the OTA we used to get before we moved (I mean the single channel OTA, not the multiplex cr@p)

Excellent, you guys aren't that behind ^-^

I just had a thought that may interest some here

De-noise and de-block filters can be applied prior to encoding or after decoding the signal. It will help to reduce/eliminate pixelation and noise with minimal negative-impact to the over-all image quality.

It is currently utilized? Are you able to configure it on the STB?


Here's a little sample done via Handbrake

Original





Filtered





Original Source


http://cid-9c09d09ec80b78d1.skydrive...File%20Hosting
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post #186 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

While I agree with several who have made the point that the bandwidth required for 3D is nowhere near double that required for 2D (because the left and right-eye pictures are so similar), still, we are looking at an increased bandwidth requirement for 3D.

There no need for bandwidth increase if the 3D is based on horizontal interlacing (540 lines per eye).

If MVC to be utilized, then the bandwidth has to be doubled (e.g. 1080p x 2)
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post #187 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Excellent, you guys aren't that behind ^-^

I just had a thought that may interest some here

De-noise and de-block filters can be applied prior to encoding or after decoding the signal. It will help to reduce/eliminate pixelation and noise with minimal negative-impact to the over-all image quality.

It is currently utilized? Are you able to configure it on the STB?


Here's a little sample

Well, having been watching OTA HDTV since 1999, I wonder who's catching up The latecomers always get to choose the newer technologies

Eeuuuuggghhh! The original looks like low bandwidth internet transmitted overcompressed HD - I've never seen anything that bad, even from satellite. The filtered one is silky soft and better on the eyes, but , well, soft.
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post #188 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:19 PM
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It wasn't a capture of OVA transmission. I was just using it as a sample. But it is not too far off from the actual broadcast ^-^
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post #189 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

There no need for bandwidth increase if the 3D is based on horizontal interlacing (540 lines per eye).

3D requires more bandwidth, other things being equal. If you reduce the resolution of the picture, of course that can give the extra bandwidth needed, so overall the signal requires no additional bandwidth. It may be that DirecTV's new 3D channel in June will do just this.

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post #190 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

It is currently utilized? Are you able to configure it on the STB?

That is interesting. So far as I know it is not currently utilized. I cannot configure it on my STB.

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post #191 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:35 PM
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The advantage of vertical/horizontal interlacing, grid-mapping etc... is to maintain the same level of bandwidth by dropping the vertical/horizontal (or both) by half.

So 3D doesn't automatically mean increase in bandwidth unless they intent to provide full res per eye, which may not happen via satellite/cable. However, there is a very high change the on-demand sector services will adopt it.
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post #192 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:38 PM
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There are a few trueHDinfo channels.

The HD-PQ on cable /sat is much better than SD but i don't like watching it,
i do like watching bluray.
And SD is good enough for me,i only want a 'perfect picture' when i watch
a movie.

In no european country they will tell you if the HD they show you is Native HD.
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post #193 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:39 PM
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the new Samsung models can detect the content resolution regardless of the source resolution. So there may be a way to find-out.


But I don't know its detection accuracy.
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post #194 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 03:44 PM
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Forgot to add: The contents given to the broadcast companies may not have the same level of quality as BD.

This has been the case with SD, which is still true today.
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post #195 of 497 Old 01-17-2010, 04:22 PM
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Nice stuff,Nielo.

SD is good enough for me,i mean SD on my Topfield7710HDsat-receiver,not SD
on a SDsat-receiver.
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post #196 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 09:37 AM
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Current autostereoscopic displays have limited viewing angles and can only provide half the total resolution per eye.


If 3D is successful, the next move would be to implement the (display) directly into the glasses, which would enable people to experience true cinema at home.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1224583
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post #197 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 11:14 AM
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The Cinema experience is authentic in a movie theatre ,at home,home cinema,cinema is
a IMITATION of the movie theatre experience.

I do not like to watch movies in a dark place,there should be at least dimmed light.
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post #198 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The Cinema experience is authentic in a movie theatre ,at home,home cinema,cinema is
a IMITATION of the movie theatre experience.

I do not like to watch movies in a dark place,there should be at least dimmed light.

Samsung had a group of TVs stacked at CES all showing 3D content. They looked very bright and clear and the 3D effect was very good----and the ambient light there was brighter than the light in my family room.
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post #199 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The Cinema experience is authentic in a movie theatre ,at home,home cinema,cinema is
a IMITATION of the movie theatre experience.

I do not like to watch movies in a dark place,there should be at least dimmed light.


whatever floats your boat
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post #200 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Forgot to add: The contents given to the broadcast companies may not have the same level of quality as BD.
.

According to the following link the resolution of the 3D content from the cable and satellite broadcasters will be half of that from Blu-Ray disks themselves.. Since the broadcasters will braodcast 960x1080 for each eye as compared to 1920x1080 for each eye from the disk to the full 3D TVs. This is solution enables the broadcasters to not have to broadcast 3D at a hgher bandwidth and enable their tuner STBs to receive and process 3D with a downloadable firmware upgrade.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/12/hd...de-by-side-3d/
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post #201 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fire407 View Post

Samsung had a group of TVs stacked at CES all showing 3D content. They looked very bright and clear and the 3D effect was very good----and the ambient light there was brighter than the light in my family room.

BIAS LIGHTING:cinemaquestinc.com
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post #202 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

whatever floats your boat

I love watching tv with some dimmed light ,it makes my boat float.
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post #203 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

According to the following link the resolution of the 3D content from the cable and satellite broadcasters will be half of that from Blu-Ray disks themselves.. Since the broadcasters will braodcast 960x1080 for each eye as compared to 1920x1080 for each eye from the disk to the full 3D TVs. This is solution enables the broadcasters to not have to broadcast 3D at a hgher bandwidth and enable their tuner STBs to receive and process 3D with a downloadable firmware upgrade.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/12/hd...de-by-side-3d/

There are number of ways to broadcast 3D such as side by side (which is similar to SD Widescreen), checkboard and interlacing.

All thee formats sacrifice quality by maintaining bandwidth. In other words, it doesn't cost extra to transmit 3D.


I wonder which is better, Side by Side or Interlacing.
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post #204 of 497 Old 02-07-2010, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post

Having sat through Avatar twice over the holidays, the 3d effect appears to be a cute novelty for about ten minutes. After the point, your brain becomes accustomed to it and you don't really notice anymore. Additionally, wearing the glasses dims the image significantly and (at least for me) created a distracting, hazy effect that frequently took me out of the experience.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! This was my experience also! Dull and fuzzy,but great 3D effects.

Can't wait to see it on BluRay 2D!
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post #205 of 497 Old 02-08-2010, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddTX View Post

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! This was my experience also! Dull and fuzzy,but great 3D effects.

Can't wait to see it on BluRay 2D!

Did you see it IMAX or real-3D?

I say this because the three real3D versions that i saw (2 different theaters) were *razor sharp*... possibly the sharpest most detailed movie I've ever seen projected.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #206 of 497 Old 02-08-2010, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddTX View Post

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! This was my experience also! Dull and fuzzy,but great 3D effects.

Can't wait to see it on BluRay 2D!

As the previous poster, DaViD Boulet said, I too thought the image on the Imax screen was crisp, clear, and detailed. After a few minutes, I began to forget I was watching 3D; which is just the way it should be! When some image jerked me out of that and reminded me I was watching 3D, I again marvelled at the beauty of the images I was seeing. No 2D for me; this is a must-buy 3D BD to go with the complete 3D theater I'll be assembling later this year, or early next year at the latest.
I can say it:::I'm a believer!
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post #207 of 497 Old 02-09-2010, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmreedjr View Post

As the previous poster, DaViD Boulet said, I too thought the image on the Imax screen was crisp, clear, and detailed. After a few minutes, I began to forget I was watching 3D; which is just the way it should be! When some image jerked me out of that and reminded me I was watching 3D, I again marvelled at the beauty of the images I was seeing. No 2D for me; this is a must-buy 3D BD to go with the complete 3D theater I'll be assembling later this year, or early next year at the latest.
I can say it:::I'm a believer!

You're a "believer" after seeing 1 high budget movie? You you honestly think network shows and such will have the same quality? Yes, it was stunning. But the years of production that went into it produced the result we marveled at on the screen, no sitcom, or hour long drama on a network will EVER have that luxury or budget. I'd expect to see movies with smaller budgets doing 3D with less stellar results.

It's your money and you can spend it as you like. I've been around long enough to know that the odds are good that 3D is more hype than anything.
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post #208 of 497 Old 02-09-2010, 05:08 AM
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You're a "believer" after seeing 1 high budget movie? You you honestly think network shows and such will have the same quality? Yes, it was stunning. But the years of production that went into it produced the result we marveled at on the screen, no sitcom, or hour long drama on a network will EVER have that luxury or budget. I'd expect to see movies with smaller budgets doing 3D with less stellar results.

It's your money and you can spend it as you like. I've been around long enough to know that the odds are good that 3D is more hype than anything.

It turns out that I won't incur any significant additional expense in order to bring 3D capability into my home. I need a new HDTV, as my 8 year old Pioneer 65" RPTV is on it's last legs; why not buy a new display that's 3D capable? My BD player is a Gold Box special Sylvania that will work perfectly with my bedroom setup, so I'll have an opening for a BD player for the new TV; why not buy one that's 3D capable? And, if it comes to that, I bought into HDDVD as the better HD option and it's dead. I've lost before.
I'm 64, retired, and pretty well off; I could throw away the money I'll spend on this equipment and my lifestyle wouldn't change. Whether or not my new 3D capable equipment ever shows a lot of 3D programming is almost irrelevant! If it does, as I think it will, I can watch it, If it doesn't, I'll have a very good, very large 2D HDTV system. I'm leaning towards the upcoming 72" Visio LCD, though that's not set in stone. I'm not a gamer, but the PS3 may be an option for the BD player, though I really want to wait to see how the new flock of players pan out. The Sony's lack of HDMI 1.4 ports concerns me.
I guess that it's just serendipity that my requirement to replace my existing equipment comes along just as 3D for the home becomes viable. I expect that, by this time next year, it'll all be in place; and I can hardly wait!
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post #209 of 497 Old 02-09-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L View Post

You're a "believer" after seeing 1 high budget movie? You you honestly think network shows and such will have the same quality? Yes, it was stunning. But the years of production that went into it produced the result we marveled at on the screen, no sitcom, or hour long drama on a network will EVER have that luxury or budget. I'd expect to see movies with smaller budgets doing 3D with less stellar results.

It's your money and you can spend it as you like. I've been around long enough to know that the odds are good that 3D is more hype than anything.

Coraline was native 3D (stereo cameras), no CGI, and was also an incredible impressive 3D spectacle... one where the 3D depth really added to the story and enhanced the artistry and "other worldliness" of the film. For me, Coraline was the 3D film that "made me a believer" well before AVATAR. I think most folks haven't even seen Coraline in 3D so there's very little discussion about it... obviously AVATAR is the film that's making waves due to popularity and its sheer epic proportions (deservedly so).

It doesn't take a high budget to get 3D right. Just common sense behind the camera.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #210 of 497 Old 02-09-2010, 10:51 AM
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I saw Coraline in a 4K Digital Theater and agree 100%. I saw other 3D movies last year as well and it wasn't Avatar that won me over, it was the other 3D movies that came before it.

Up
A Christmas Carol
Final Destination 3D
Coraline
Battle For Terra
Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs
Monsters Vs. Aliens
G-Force
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