3D broadcasts won't be in hi-def - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Do you think the people at Panasonic are incorrect? They were the ones who said up to about 50%. And they were the ones who did all the work to set the standard the BDA accepted for 3D BD.

If they said "up to" about 50% extra then yes, I think they are incorrect. If they said "on average about 50% extra" then I think that will be about right.

I would say that most articles seem to have said "about 50% extra" not "up to about 50% extra".

The head of advanced technologies at Sony seems the most realistic (saying around 40% extra to around 70% extra <- which on average is 55% extra), and working with real footage.

----
But again, like I said in the previous post - will the 3D broadcasters (in the short term) actually be using the MVC codec? If not, it doesn't apply in this thread yet (not really until the decoders for 3DTV are using MVC, and when they do, their efficiency will probably be less than encoding with the MVC codec on Blu-ray because they will probably usually have to do the encoding in real-time).
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

If they said "up to" about 50% extra then yes, I think they are incorrect. If they said "on average about 50% extra" then I think that will be about right.

I would say that most articles seem to have said "about 50% extra" not "up to about 50% extra".

The head of advanced technologies at Sony seems the most realistic (saying around 40% extra to around 70% extra <- which on average is 55% extra), and working with real footage.

Quote:


And, in fact, the technologies proposed by Panasonic for 3D imagery storage, transfer, etc, all utilize existing standard technology. Image encoding uses the two-channel encoding function implemented in Moving Picture Coding Experts Group Phase 4 Advanced Video Coding (MPEG-4 AVC) H.264. The second channel stores only the data different from channel one, holding the increase in data volume to about 1.5 times.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article...081030/160508/

Quote:


----
But again, like I said in the previous post - will the 3D broadcasters (in the short term) actually be using the MVC codec? If not, it doesn't apply in this thread yet (not really until the decoders for 3DTV are using MVC, and when they do, their efficiency will probably be less than encoding with the MVC codec on Blu-ray because they will probably usually have to do the encoding in real-time).

They will be using the Side/Side or Top/Bottom at half the resolution of 3D BD because it has to fit in a single HD channel. So I don't believe they will be using MVC because they will not be upgrading the field equipment. Only a firmware upgrade to existing equipment is planned.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

But again, like I said in the previous post - will the 3D broadcasters (in the short term) actually be using the MVC codec? If not, it doesn't apply in this thread yet (not really until the decoders for 3DTV are using MVC, and when they do, their efficiency will probably be less than encoding with the MVC codec on Blu-ray because they will probably usually have to do the encoding in real-time).

You are absolutely correct Joe! The Frame Compatible mode allows Cable/Satellite to do 3D with no field hardware changes. That is the beauty of it - they can quickly try out 3D with a minimum investment. If it suceeds then they can move on to the next phase with new hardware in the field basedd on MVC (or perhaps something even more advanced).

BTW: The term "Broadcast" traditionally implies over the air braodcasts. 3D OTA won't happen in the foreseeable future.

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Old 03-03-2010, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Do you think that the Vice President of advanced technologies at Sony pictures is totally incorrect?

It's been my experience that VPs have up to 100% chance of having no technical knowledge whatsoever.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:23 PM
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Mbps are the bottom line. BD can do 50 MPG4, ATSC 19 Mpg2. A huge difference. Artifacts are the result. Satellite uses MPG4 but at about half the rate of ATSC. The bitrate will have to be increased. ATSC actually only has this much resolution- Scan format
720 vertical lines
1280 horizontal pixels
Vertical Horizontal
Measured B&W Static Resolution 550 1139
Measured B&W Dynamic Resolution 420 1068
Measured Color Static Resolution 360 641
Measured Color Dynamic Resolution 320 605

BD will blow it away and probably be the only acceptable 3D for most buyers, like us.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by monitormaven View Post

I saw the Direct TV 3D demo at CES and it looked fine.

I'll go one better and say it looked great.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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Old 03-03-2010, 08:52 PM
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Yes, but was it what is going to be delivered to the home?
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:58 PM
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Yes, it was.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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Old 03-03-2010, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

[
They will be using the Side/Side or Top/Bottom at half the resolution of 3D BD because it has to fit in a single HD channel.

Does "they" include DirecTV? I don't know why DirecTV is constrained to fit a 3D signal into a single HD channel. Is it a law? A constraint imposed by the equipment they use? Or what?

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Old 03-03-2010, 09:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Does "they" include DirecTV? I don't know why DirecTV is constrained to fit a 3D signal into a single HD channel. Is it a law? A constraint imposed by the equipment they use? Or what?

$
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Old 03-04-2010, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Does "they" include DirecTV? I don't know why DirecTV is constrained to fit a 3D signal into a single HD channel. Is it a law? A constraint imposed by the equipment they use? Or what?

Right now the constraints are imposed by the equipment currently in the field. This is a fast, easy way to test the market. Ultimately (after some development) they could use techniques like 3D Blu-ray, but that would require that the user get a new (3D) receiver.

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Old 03-04-2010, 01:07 PM
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That's true. If the cable and satellite companies started using something like MVC, higher resolutions, and much higher bitrates (necessitating much greater video processing power) then that would require all new HD 3D set top boxes.

You think these guys are going to go with higher quality HD 3D and all new expensive decoder boxes in the field or more of a $$ stream with minimal investment? Hmmm...

However, I have my doubts about the real-world consumer broadcast 3D PQ on these new channels anyway, irrespective of the not-for-consumer's-eyes demos they did at CES. They haven't met an HD channel yet they haven't compressed to the nth degree. Some standard HD channels right now look like complete ass... and the big boys don't seem to be in any hurry to fix that any time soon, or ever.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

That's true. If the cable and satellite companies started using something like MVC, higher resolutions, and much higher bitrates (necessitating much greater video processing power) then that would require all new HD 3D set top boxes.

How do you know it would require all new boxes? Sony seems to be sure they can get the PS3 to put out 3D just by reprogramming its firmware. DirecTV reprograms its customers' boxes all the time, by satellite. Whether it could coax full 3D resolution out of current hardware is questionable, but the answer is not obvious to me.

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Old 03-04-2010, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

How do you know it would require all new boxes? Sony seems to be sure they can get the PS3 to put out 3D just by reprogramming its firmware. DirecTV reprograms its customers' boxes all the time, by satellite. Whether it could coax full 3D resolution out of current hardware is questionable, but the answer is not obvious to me.

CBL and SAT STB's use SoC's just like BD players do. That means they are hardware based. There are specific boundaries that they have to stay within. The PS3 with it's Cell BE is software based. It's boundaries are all in the programming of the Cell BE which so far has proved very flexible.
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

CBL and SAT STB's use SoC's just like BD players do. That means they are hardware based. There are specific boundaries that they have to stay within. The PS3 with it's Cell BE is software based. It's boundaries are all in the programming of the Cell BE which so far has proved very flexible.

Which is something you want in a gaming machine where the software requirements can increase over time, as opposed to a video player designed to play discs that meet a specific specification or content that meets broadcast standards.
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Which is something you want in a gaming machine where the software requirements can increase over time, as opposed to a video player designed to play discs that meet a specific specification or content that meets broadcast standards.

Yet AFAIK (not up on gaming) all the added features to the PS3 have to do with optical dics playback. Someone correct me if I am wrong:

Added upscaling of DVD's
Added PIP (Profile 1.1) to BD playback
Added BD Live (Profile 2.0) to BD playback
Added DTS-MA support for BD playback
Will add "1.4" 3D support for 3D BD playback
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Old 03-04-2010, 04:01 PM
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I have more faith in the followin quote from the 1.4 FAQs at the HDMI website.
"
Can older HDMI (v.1.0 - 1.3) devices be firmware-upgraded to take advantage of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4?
Probably not. Most of the new features introduced in HDMI 1.4 will require a new HDMI chip to enable, and cannot be upgraded via firmware.
"
The FAQ's can be found at:

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdm..._4_faq.aspx#18

I do not think that the marketing rep at CES 2010 was totally familiar with the HDMI 1.4 spec when he provided the interview.
Possibly the side by side interlaced 3D support that is in the 1.4 spec can also be implemented using firmware with a 1.3 chip and this is what he was refrerring to.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:35 AM
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Side-by-side seems to offer some distinct advantages: each 960x1080 frame could be interleaved (alternating vertical stripes) across the complete 1920x1080 image and matching alternating polarising strips applied to a flat panel display, allowing passive glasses with no switching required; plus video cameras could use a "simple" image splitter to create side-by-side 3D views (as can currently be done with digital still cameras and a 3D adapter).

Anamorphic DVDs have long used 720x480 frames that are scaled to effectively 852x480 for widescreen presentation, so there is a precedent that has worked well.

The only unknowns are whether interleaved stripe structure will be visible at normal viewing distances; whether alternating interleaved polarising strips could be produced in large sheet form economically and whether cross bleed would be too high.

I'm surprised 3D wasn't first introduced as side by side, with the next evolution being sequential, similar to 1024x768, then 1366x768, then 1920x1080 HD in display evolution.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:55 AM
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The following link describes side by side and states that it is what DirecTV will be using.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/12/hd...de-by-side-3d/
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Old 03-05-2010, 01:45 PM
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While the initial broadcast 3D tech won't be Full HD, it will be HD and at CES the common response to DirecTV's 3D demo was "why doesn't DirecTV's HD look that good" (meaning no obvious signs of compression artifacts).

I recently did an interview on the Engadget HD Podcast with Bob Wilson, the VP of Network video solutions group at Motorola and he explained that many providers are already planning to upgrade their systems to 1080p60 per eye 3D and that we should have this at home within 3 years.

I've been meaning to write up the comments from the interview (so you wouldn't have to listen) but I never did. Here are my notes though.

Quote:


cut the total resolution per eye in half to use existing transmission, which is phase 1.
Ultimately content owners will use H.264 and something like MVC to get full frame 3D HD and at the same time use less bandwidth than 1080i with MPEG2.
Until you move to higher resolution per eye, most of what is there today will work. The investment is on the production side.

Ideally 3D would have separate production techniques, but just like in the case of HD vs SD, 3D will probably be shot HD safe. Economics won't support multiple productions.

3D will have multiple formats (720p60 and 1080i60) just like HD and again your set-top or TV will convert them to a format that is compatible with your display technology.

The most recent set-tops with some changes will work with frame-compatible, but full 3D HD will require end-to-end changes include the set-tops. We believe that many operators will make that choice because of the reduction in bandwidth constraints. The rate will be driven by consumers, based on what they will pay for the differentiated service.

1080p 60 per eye in two years is doable, but aggressive. 6-24 will be frame-compatible, but certainly in 3 years you are going to see it (1080p60 per eye) which is my view, not pre-announcing anything.

A new one is 1080p60 which would be great for sports. Using H.264 we can offer a better 1080p60 using less throughput than 1080i60 using MPEG2. Doubling the frame rate uses about 30% more throughput.

"When you are looking at stereo, you are not as critical of sharpness as you would be otherwise" You can live with less resolution and get a good result. Anaglyph was awful and no one seems interested in using it.

Some networks might convert 2D material to 3D, the same way TNT HD converts SD content to 3D. Some 2D to 3D conversion turn out great, others look horrible.

Content owners like ESPN have not talked about what transmission technique they will use.

"I think they're going to move to 1080p60 very quickly, once you get over the issue of changing out the set-tops." Higher tier services.

Eventually full HD 3D will be important to customers so providers will want to offer it as a distinguishing service.

I don't think cable will let DirecTV offer 3D alone because the high tier customers are people everyone covants.

MPEG4
We've seen a major shift to mpeg4 deliver system, but we provide a transcoding capability that is located in the head-end so the operator can switch to MPEG4 when ready. AT&T, Dish Network and DirecTV are MPEG4, but the rest are almost all MPEG2. FiOS is prepared to take a hybrid model. The cost of replacing set-tops is holding back MPEG4 to the home.

The success of 3D
I think we'll be shocked how quickly people go for it (3D). When it (3D sports) is done properly it is stunning, even the half resolution stuff is stunning. I think this full reuses things are table stakes.

Moving to full 3D 1080p will also mean moving to 1080p, and your TV or set top should let you view the full 1080p video in 2D.


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Old 03-05-2010, 02:09 PM
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Great notes Ben. Totally consistant with common sense and what I have heard.

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Old 03-05-2010, 02:13 PM
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Has anyone see statements from the major cable companies (Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Cablevision) about their short term (frame compatible) 3D plans. Particularly wher & where they will roll ESPN 3D and Discovery 3D?

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Comcast's CEO speaks about 3DTV in a video interview (from CES)

http://mashable.com/2010/01/08/comcast-3dtv/

Discovery and ESPN Hop on the 3D TV Bandwagon

http://mashable.com/2010/01/05/3dtv-discovery/
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Old 03-05-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Comcast's CEO speaks about 3DTV in a video interview (from CES)

http://mashable.com/2010/01/08/comcast-3dtv/

Discovery and ESPN Hop on the 3D TV Bandwagon

http://mashable.com/2010/01/05/3dtv-discovery/

He provided useless (but interesting, nonetheless) generalities only about 3D. What about specifics?

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Old 03-05-2010, 04:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

He provided useless (but interesting, nonetheless) generalities only about 3D. What about specifics?

There are none unless YOU can find something.
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

There are none unless YOU can find something.

Or perhaps there are others, besides Lee Stewart, who can make a "contribution".

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:44 PM
 
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Wednesday, March 3, 2010

More With ESPN's Mike Soltys

http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com...ke-soltys.html

Above comes from thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232366
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Old 03-06-2010, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I recently did an interview on the Engadget HD Podcast with Bob Wilson, the VP of Network video solutions group at Motorola and he explained that many providers are already planning to upgrade their systems to 1080p60 per eye 3D and that we should have this at home within 3 years.

So it looks like within 3 years, broadcast 3D TV is going to be using a much better format than Blu-ray is capable of - even better than the new 3D Blu-ray format (the broadcast 3D TV format which is capable of twice the full 1080p frame rate per eye than Blu-ray) that won't really be available till later in the year.
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

So it looks like within 3 years, broadcast 3D TV is going to be using a much better format than Blu-ray is capable of - even better than the new 3D Blu-ray format (the broadcast 3D TV format which is capable of twice the full 1080p frame rate per eye than Blu-ray) that won't really be available till later in the year.

In regards to the frame rate, yes, but movies are still produced at 24fps and with the higher bit rate of Blu-ray, the quality will still be better than cable.

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Old 03-06-2010, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSJones View Post

The "fight" over 720p60 and 1080i60 was fought and, well, drawn. The number of pixels per second (~true information content) for the two formats is not greatly different and the perceived vertical resolution of the interlaced 1080 was no better than the non-interlaced 720.
....
If I got 720p60 for each eye and no motion/interlace and fewer compression artifacts, I'd be very happy.

This guy makes a lot of sense. I mainly want 3D for live sports. 720p@60hz for both eyes would be great but I'm not holding my breath.

I wish 1080p ATSC broadcasts were rolled out in 2D before they started pushing 3D. But 2d flat panel display tech has matured to the point that 3d is possible so of course they're going to push it. I used to run 3d games on my computer almost ten years ago. It was possible because CRTs can support up to 140hz with no gimmicks. Flat panels are only now catching up.

Cable Labs has loosened their death grip on the set top boxes. At the end of March a bunch of cable-card tuners for Windows 7 Media Center hit the market (Ceton, etc.). This is interesting for 3D because I have a hunch MediaCenter will become the testing ground for new 3D tech due to the more powerful machines in use. In a few years cable set top boxes might be descendants of today's ATI or Nvidia based HTPCs.

I'm going to buy a Panasonic 3D Plasma next year because 1st gen stuff scares me. I only hope that they don't screw over the HTPC crowd - We need native 1080p @120hz input support.
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