1080p120 is not a mandatory 3D format for HDMI 1.4a - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 41 Old 03-20-2010, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tunaman4u2 View Post

Just a quick question for you guys... I'm getting the new Onkyo 608 owners thread going & the question was asked if this unit (That ships with HDMI 1.4) is compatible with 1.4a. Are the new specs in 1.4a simply where to put the information so any 1.4 port can work or do you need a 1.4a port\\chip?

The most bandwidth intensive 3D formats (Frame packing at 1080p24 and 720p60) were required in the original HDMI 1.4 specification. Though only Onkyo can say for sure I think it is very likely that the Onkyo HDMI 1.4 AV receiver can be firmware updated to HDMI 1.4a.


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Originally Posted by Paul33993 View Post

So you're basically saying 1080P@60 per eye is a technical impossibility for any of the 3D tvs this year?

As far as I know there aren't any HDMI chips announced yet that have a high enough bandwidth for 1080p60 per eye. As such it does look like that is how things are going to end up this year.


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Originally Posted by walford View Post

Are there even any PC games today that can output 3D 1080p/60 frame sequential for each eye content to any display today?

Yes, as long as the game supports both NVIDIA 3D Vision (here is a list of them) and 1080p resolution than it can output at 1080p60 per eye. There are several computer monitors on the market today that can accept that using dual link DVI (which has a bandwidth of 330 MHz). NVIDIA even demonstrated what they call 3D Vision Surround which used three 1080p 3D monitors. ATI isn't as advanced when it comes to 3D gaming though they do support games that have a 3D mode and are pushing for what they call the Open Stereo 3D Initiative.
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post #32 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 07:40 AM
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I have been under the imnpression that the Nvidia 3D vision sent Checkerboard format content to 3D TVs or displays capable of interpolating the content of the 1080i/60 per frame input to 1080p for display on a 120Hz display.

Since you stated
"
As far as I know there aren't any HDMI chips announced yet that have a high enough bandwidth for 1080p60 per eye. As such it does look like that is how things are going to end up this year
"
I don't understand that Nvidia 3D vision can provide 1080p/60 per eye output for games.
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post #33 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

I have been under the imnpression that the Nvidia 3D vision sent Checkerboard format content to 3D TVs or displays capable of interpolating the content of the 1080i/60 per frame input to 1080p for display on a 120Hz display.

Since you stated
"
As far as I know there aren't any HDMI chips announced yet that have a high enough bandwidth for 1080p60 per eye. As such it does look like that is how things are going to end up this year
"
I don't understand that Nvidia 3D vision can provide 1080p/60 per eye output for games.

Nvidia 3D can output Checkerboard or 1080p frame sequential 120hz. 120hz is sent over dvi or vga, not hdmi. Research your tv/monitor carefully before you buy.
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post #34 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Are there even any PC games today that can output 3D 1080p/60 frame sequential for each eye content to any display today?

For the past year the 120hz (true 120hz input) LCD monitors have supported this. It requires a dual-DVI output (which is only one plug) that's available on any Nvidia video card even remotely powerful enough to do decent 3D.
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post #35 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 11:15 AM
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I am aware that there are some PC monitors that will accept 120fps content using s dual link DVI interface which some graphic cards support. Most, however, just have the 12 pins for a single connected and not all the 24 pins required for the dual link. Also the early 3 models of PC monitors to support this had native resolutions of less then 1080p and had screen sizes of less then 32" Only recently have a couple of full 1080p monitors with larger screen sizes that supported 120fps input come to market.
And as stated before I am not aware of an new 3D capable HDTVs that support the bandwidth or interface required for this input. They do support checkerboard with HDMI 1.4 however.
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post #36 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 12:57 PM
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I guess I'm confused then. I thought you were asking if there were any. I realize the early models were 1650*1080, but it's always been know that dual link DVI could go up to 1920*1080P at 120hz. So everyone knew the larger monitors would hit that (But be limited to 1080P.) And PC games can render at whatever resolution you want. So that wasn't an issue. Just whether you have the horsepower in your video card.
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post #37 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

I don't understand that Nvidia 3D vision can provide 1080p/60 per eye output for games.

1080p60 per eye Frame Packing video requires 297 MHz of bandwidth (based on the bandwidth chart in the HDMI 1.4a 3D specification). The fastest HDMI chips I have seen are capable of 225 MHz while dual link DVI is capable of 330 Mhz.


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Originally Posted by walford View Post

They do support checkerboard with HDMI 1.4 however.

Though checkerboard has been used for years on 3D DLP HDTVs it is not one of the 3D formats included in the HDMI 1.4a specification. In the HDMI 1.4a specification the full resolution 3D formats are Frame Packing, Line Altenative, Side-by-Side Full, and L + Depth while the half resolution 3D formats are Side-by-Side Half and Top-and-Bottom. The mandatory 3D formats for HDMI 1.4a 3D displays are Frame Packing, Side-by-Side Half, and Top-and-Bottom.
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post #38 of 41 Old 03-21-2010, 03:43 PM
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AFAIK Checkerboard is not in either the HDMI 1.4 or 1.4a spcec however the Samsung C7000 3D HDTV will receive it according to its User guide and I beleive but have no proof that the New Paasonic 3D HDTV will also receive checkerboard. I think the have both done this for the benefit of PC gamers and for owners of 3D capable DLP RPTV currently receiving content from PCs who want to upgrade to a new 3D HDTV.
AFAIK neither of them have dual link HDMI receiver chips.
I think we are now in sync with each other. When I first asked I was not even thinking about dedicated PC monitors but only about 3D HDTVs
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post #39 of 41 Old 03-22-2010, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

To allow the Blu-ray player or a video processor to do the de-interlacing of 1080/60i or upconversion of 720p60 per eye and other formats? To be ready for when TV broadcasts are 1080p60 per eye?

Current Blu-ray players don't support decoding of 1080p60 in 2D, but HDMI supports 1080p60 for 2D allowing current players to de-interlace 1080/60i or output 1080p24 content at 1080p60 in 2D.

Deinterlaced 1080/60i yields 1080p/30 and thus perserves all of the available information in the original video program. Also its not clear any provider will be offering full resolution 1080p/60 for each the right and left video streams in 3D mode. This is certainly not supported by the new Blu-ray standard nor by any of the announced satellite or cable 3D solutions. The mandatory 3D formats defined in the HDMI 1.4a spec. are intended to coinvey all of the information in the native (i.e., most bit efficient) source format. If a given manufacturer decides to offer, for example, a Blu-ray 3D player that will also as an optional output mode upscale the 3D video from dual 1080p/24 streams to alternating frames at 120 Hz (so that it is compatible with the 3D computer displays) then that will allowed for by the HDMI spec.. However 3D HDTVs support HDMI 1.4a are not required to support such an input mode since it is not one of the mandatory mode. Also there would be nothing to prevent the 3D HDTV manufacturer from offering a PC 3D input mode as a extra feature that would accept a 1080p/120 3D singal from a PC or video game. Its just that such a mode is not required as a 3D HDTV where the focus is on 3D cinema and not gaming.

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post #40 of 41 Old 03-22-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Deinterlaced 1080/60i yields 1080p/30

Nope. If it was shot in interlaced mode, deinterlaced 1080/60i would yield 1080p/60. In fact all or most Blu-ray players can de-interlace 1080/60i 2D to 1080p/60. I don't know of any that will output at 1080p/30.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17812233
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Originally Posted by Kjack View Post

The ultimate goal of cable is 1080p60 per eye being broadcast.

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post #41 of 41 Old 03-25-2010, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I don't think anyone is against the idea of 3D displays supporting a 1080p60 per eye video signal but it is not a mandatory 3D format in the HDMI 1.4a specification. Also there may be technical reasons for that since at the moment I don't know of any HDMI chips with enough bandwidth to support it and the fastest HDMI chips I have seen on the Silicon Image website have a bandwidth of 225 MHz (such as this HDMI 1.4 transmitter chip).


Just curious but where did you hear that from? I wouldn't be surprised if it changed but Keith mentioned that the tentative plan in September of 2009 was for the 3D Blu-ray specification to support 720p60, 1080p24, and 1080i60.

Yes, 1080i60 was part of the standards when it was proposed in July 2009. By the time the standard was finalized on Dec 2009, BD Technical committee ruled it out. As one of the member of the said committee I am privy to it. I don't think there is any public domain standard document that can be shared.
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