Need new receiver or no for 3D - AVS Forum
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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So far from what I understand, to get 3D we need:
1. 3D TV
2. 3D source such as 3D Blu-ray player or PS3
3. Shutter glasses (the fact these cost $150 each is going to make adoption slow)

Where to current HDMI 1.3 receivers fit into this? I've seen nowhere mentioning whether we can connect both 3D devices to our HDMI 1.3 receivers and have 3D working as intended? If we don't have a 1.4 receiver (my brother currently has a PS3 and a 3D capable Samsung LED DLP RPTV and a 1.3 receiver) will we have to connect the PS3 directly to the TV to get 3D?
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

If we don't have a 1.4 receiver (my brother currently has a PS3 and a 3D capable Samsung LED DLP RPTV and a 1.3 receiver) will we have to connect the PS3 directly to the TV to get 3D?

Yes, except a 1.3 receiver might work for the low res 3D from DirecTV (I haven't heard about that one way or the other).

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Old 03-13-2010, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

So far from what I understand, to get 3D we need:
1. 3D TV
2. 3D source such as 3D Blu-ray player or PS3
3. Shutter glasses (the fact these cost $150 each is going to make adoption slow)

Where to current HDMI 1.3 receivers fit into this? I've seen nowhere mentioning whether we can connect both 3D devices to our HDMI 1.3 receivers and have 3D working as intended? If we don't have a 1.4 receiver (my brother currently has a PS3 and a 3D capable Samsung LED DLP RPTV and a 1.3 receiver) will we have to connect the PS3 directly to the TV to get 3D?

From what we know so far an AVR with HDMI 1.4(a) inputs/output would be needed it you want to pass the video thru the AVR then on to the 3D HDTV display. However, there may (or may not) be some upcoming 3D BD players and 3D HDTVs that allow the user to force a 3D mode that doesn't rely on the addition information that is only carried with HDMI 1.4 (and not passed by a AVR with HDMI 1.3). If some 1st generation 3D devices do support such a forced mode it would be there to accommodate use of HDMI 1.3 AVRs and switches, but its only speculation at this point if such backward compatibilty will be offered or not. One alternative for using the PS3 as the 3D source would be to use its optical output for the audio (i.e., no lossless Dolby of DTS formats supported however) to the AVR then run the HDMI output directly to the 3D HDTV. This would certainly work and all you would be missing is lossless audio support. Alternatively Panasonic is planning to offer a Blu-ray 3D player with two HDMI outputs where one is HDMI 1.4 for connection to the 3D HDTV (or HDMI 1.4 capable AVR) and the other is a HDMI 1.3 for connection to the AVR for audio (allowing support for all audio formats). Another alternative would be to get a Blu-ray 3D player will internal lossless audio decoding and 7.1 analog audio outputs (for connection to the AVR) and then use the HDMI output to carry the video directly to the 3D HDTV.

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Old 03-13-2010, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to both responses. They're basically asking us to refurnish our entire setup. That's a no-no for me, I may suggest new comers to home theaters a 3D setup but it's too costly for anyone who already invested so much in their rigs. Not to mention even to just check it out on a PS3 plus DLP RPTV we'd still need to shell out $150 minimum for glasses.
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

Thanks to both responses. They're basically asking us to refurnish our entire setup. That's a no-no for me, I may suggest new comers to home theaters a 3D setup but it's too costly for anyone who already invested so much in their rigs. Not to mention even to just check it out on a PS3 plus DLP RPTV we'd still need to shell out $150 minimum for glasses.

Don't forget another $100 or so for the 3DC-1000 converter
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Don't forget another $100 or so for the 3DC-1000 converter

its turning into a cash grab.
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Old 03-13-2010, 12:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by knobby View Post

its turning into a cash grab.

Oh - you mean HD wasn't?

Anyone remember the prices for HDTVs in 1999?

I do:

$7000 for the Panasonic HD RPTV and $15,000 for the Pioneer HD PDP.
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Oh - you mean HD wasn't?

Anyone remember the prices for HDTVs in 1999?

I do:

$7000 for the Panasonic HD RPTV and $15,000 for the Pioneer HD PDP.

back when HD first came out though no one really had a dedicated home theater and those costs were entry costs rather than replacing existing system that is working fine to get a new tech. A new tech that isn't always in use.

There is also the issue of replacing high-end current equipment with inferior 3D equipment kinda like how many here who had $2000 non-HDMI AVRs not wanting to spend so much again but also don't want inferior AVR. I currently have a Kuro non-Elite 50" and an Oppo BD-83 and I don't think I'd replace either for 3D.
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

back when HD first came out though no one really had a dedicated home theater and those costs were entry costs rather than replacing existing system that is working fine to get a new tech. A new tech that isn't always in use.

What's the entry level cost for 3D? Less than $3500 and that includes a 3DTV, a 3D BD player and 2 pair of ASGs

And a 3DTV is a HDTV also.

It's like owning an HDTV that deals with 1080x24P properly. The feature only works when watching 24P content.

Quote:


There is also the issue of replacing high-end current equipment with inferior 3D equipment kinda like how many here who had $2000 non-HDMI AVRs not wanting to spend so much again but also don't want inferior AVR. I currently have a Kuro non-Elite 50" and an Oppo BD-83 and I don't think I'd replace either for 3D.

You are saying the 50" Panasonic 3D TV is an "inferior piece of equipment?"

What you do is not indicitive of what everyone will do.
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:32 PM
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jkcheng,
See the following link which points out that the new Panasoin top of the line TV which have 3D support are also superb in their handling of 2D content.

hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p50vt20-3d-hdtv-hd-guru-exclusive-first-review/1391/
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Old 03-13-2010, 04:06 PM
 
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^^^^^^^^^^

http://hdguru.com/
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

back when HD first came out though no one really had a dedicated home theater and those costs were entry costs rather than replacing existing system that is working fine to get a new tech. A new tech that isn't always in use.

There is also the issue of replacing high-end current equipment with inferior 3D equipment kinda like how many here who had $2000 non-HDMI AVRs not wanting to spend so much again but also don't want inferior AVR. I currently have a Kuro non-Elite 50" and an Oppo BD-83 and I don't think I'd replace either for 3D.

Not true - You are either young or not an early adopter. I built my first dedicated home theater 35 (not a typo) years ago (CRT front projector with a 78" screen) and already had a CRT front projector (my 3rd generation one) capable of HD about 8 years before the first HD broadcast channel went operational. If you want to jump on the bandwagon for most any new consumer technology then you will be paying a premium price and within a few years prices work there way down to what the mainstream consumers can affort. While I'm sure you feel you paid a premium price for your Kuro plasma, just remember that for the first few years after Pioneer introduced their first plasma TVs (and not full 1080p back then) the going price for a 50" model was about $15K and if you consider inflation that would be more like $25K in today's dollars.

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Old 03-13-2010, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What's the entry level cost for 3D? Less than $3500 and that includes a 3DTV, a 3D BD player and 2 pair of ASGs

2 pairs really isn't enough, certainly not if you have a family or like to invite friends over for movies. You're also not including a new receiver. While $4k+ might not be too bad for entry level, it's hard to justify for those who already have a complete rig, especially considering the tech doesn't apply to half of what we watch. This also is kind of a all at once type upgrade rather than piece by piece.

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You are saying the 50" Panasonic 3D TV is an "inferior piece of equipment?"

What you do is not indicative of what everyone will do.

I admit this part is not applicable to most. From the reviews I've read on the VT25/20 it doesn't quite match up to a Kuro, though it should best most other TVs. It certainly would be my choice if and when I take the 3D plunge.

How many of you guys already got on the 3D bandwagon or plan to when the 3D Blu-rays start coming out? Also do you guys think we will get to a point where every week there's a 3D Blu-ray release?
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

2 pairs really isn't enough, certainly not if you have a family or like to invite friends over for movies.

It's a start. 3 extra pair will run about $450 giving you 5 pair. It is what it is. In my application - all I need is 2.

Quote:


You're also not including a new receiver.

This issue is still up in the air. We are getting conflicting reports from people in the know. It can be side stepped with the Panasonic 3D BD players.

Quote:


While $4k+ might not be too bad for entry level, it's hard to justify for those who already have a complete rig, especially considering the tech doesn't apply to half of what we watch. This also is kind of a all at once type upgrade rather than piece by piece.

If you compare that $4K to the prices for a new color TV in 1953 or a new HDTV in 1999 - it's a flat out bargin.

Yes - it is a complete upgrade - which is necessary if you want to "jump into 3D." But then again - HDTV came out in 1999 and HDM didn't until 2006.

Quote:


I admit this part is not applicable to most. From the reviews I've read on the VT25/20 it doesn't quite match up to a Kuro, though it should best most other TVs. It certainly would be my choice if and when I take the 3D plunge.

The Kuro was a great display. Best of the best. They are no longer made.

Quote:


How many of you guys already got on the 3D bandwagon or plan to when the 3D Blu-rays start coming out?

I plan to. Do the whole upgrade - 3DTV, 3D BD player and 1.4 AVR. Move all my existing HDTV equipment to my sons room and sell off his HDTV. If I can hold out till March 2011 () I will. If not - then probably Q4 but not sooner.

Quote:


Also do you guys think we will get to a point where every week there's a 3D Blu-ray release?

Probably not. They just don't make that many 3D movies and many in the "library" are . . . . questionable at best. 2 a month would be nice especially if they start doing the IMAX 3D docs.
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I plan to. Do the whole upgrade - 3DTV, 3D BD player and 1.4 AVR. Move all my existing HDTV equipment to my sons room and sell off his HDTV. If I can hold out till March 2011 () I will. If not - then probably Q4 but not sooner.

Probably not. They just don't make that many 3D movies and many in the "library" are . . . . questionable at best. 2 a month would be nice especially if they start doing the IMAX 3D docs.

Thanks for the insight. As for me I likely will not upgrade until the Kuro wears out. Sooner if I had a place to move existing equipment to. I will however recommend my friends looking into home theater setups to consider 3D when they ask me about these things.
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

2 pairs really isn't enough, certainly not if you have a family or like to invite friends over for movies. You're also not including a new receiver. While $4k+ might not be too bad for entry level, it's hard to justify for those who already have a complete rig, especially considering the tech doesn't apply to half of what we watch. This also is kind of a all at once type upgrade rather than piece by piece.



I admit this part is not applicable to most. From the reviews I've read on the VT25/20 it doesn't quite match up to a Kuro, though it should best most other TVs. It certainly would be my choice if and when I take the 3D plunge.

How many of you guys already got on the 3D bandwagon or plan to when the 3D Blu-rays start coming out? Also do you guys think we will get to a point where every week there's a 3D Blu-ray release?

I have experienced 3D for over 70 hours playing Avatar on Xbox360 on 82" Mitsubishi DLP. My cost was $112 for two pair of shutter glasses with emitter from IO Display Systems. The 3D is outstanding. My plan is to buy every 3D BR movie and use my upgradable PS3 plus future convertor from Mitsubishi. Future games could also be 3D.

Looking back I was the first buyer from our local store for the first 65" DLP Mitsubishi for $15,000. The DLP chip technology sounded amazing plus you could hook your computer to it. Two years ago gave it away to a friend when I bought my 3D ready 73" for $3,700. Now the 73" is in the bedroom replaced by the 82" for $3,600. So I have been waiting for two years to enjoy 3D and the time has finally come.
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Old 03-15-2010, 03:20 PM
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You can go video HDMi direct to projector . display, optical audio to AVR. I see no reason to have to replace the AVR.
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Old 03-15-2010, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

You can go video HDMi direct to projector . display, optical audio to AVR. I see no reason to have to replace the AVR.

You'd lose out on lossless audio in that setup.
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Old 03-15-2010, 03:47 PM
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Yes on the no lossless, but legacy digital audio works fine. So you do not have to change your avr out.

One cable to the display would be lost too. But once again you do not have to change out your avr for it to work.


For those that just have to have the lossless there are and will also be 3D BD players with two HDMI outputs once again allowing you to not have to replace the AVR.
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Old 03-15-2010, 04:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

For those that just have to have the lossless there are and will also be 3D BD players with two HDMI outputs once again allowing you to not have to replace the AVR.

Oh yeah there is that.
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Old 03-20-2010, 05:53 PM
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Does anyone know anything about Onkyo's new 3D receivers?

I am very interested in getting a 3D receiver to go with the 3D video system I am planing to get.

Below is Onkyo's Press Release that talks about 3D Receivers.

Any comments?



03/10/10 - The Onkyo TX-SR608 THX-Certified A/V Receiver one of several HDMI v1.4, 3D-Ready A/V Receivers and Home Theater Systems that will ship in March and April.

UPPER SADDLE RIVER, NJ, (3/9/10) -- Onkyo USA has announced March deliveries of its first 3D-Ready home theater receivers and home theater in a box (HTiB) systems. The new models consist of three A/V receivers and three HTiB systems ranging in price from $299 to $599, and all of them support the new HDMI 1.4 connectivity standard for new 3D video displays and Audio Return Channel capabilities. All are exceptionally well equipped to provide a superior music, home theater sound and video experience, with high build-quality and offering excellent value.

For Onkyo, a name that translates roughly to 'sound harmony' in Japanese, sound quality is preeminent. All these new receivers and HTiBs now decode lossless Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio bitstreams, and include new 192-kHz/24-bit Burr-Brown PCM1690 DAC's that are highly resistant to clock jitter and provide a remarkable 113-dB dynamic range. The lineup includes Onkyo's new easy-to-setup overlaid onscreen graphical display that lets the user watch the program in the background while using the function menus. Additionally, all 2010 HDMI v1.4 models include a new feature call HDMI Thru. HDMI Thru allows content to pass through to the TV when the receiver is in a standby state.

The new TX-SR608 7.2-channel THX-Select2 Plus certified receiver has new power amplifier section that uses three-stage inverted Darlington output topology, and a power boost from 90 to 100 watts. Audyssey DSX dimensional sound processing has been added to its predecessor's Dolby PLIIz capabilities. Additionally, all video sources, including those using the new PC input, and regardless of source resolution, can be upscaled to big and beautiful 1080p via HDMI and Faroudja DCDi Cinema. The TX-SR608 will also include a front HDMI input, a feature first introduced by Onkyo in 2009. The TX-SR608 will be available in April at an MSRP of $599.

The 5.1-channel TX-SR308 and 7.1-channel TX-SR508 round out this initial announcement of A/V Receivers from Onkyo. The TX-SR308 will be available in March with an MSRP of $299, a followed by the TX-SR508 in April for $399.

The HTiB package systems, which each consist of a receiver, speakers and a subwoofer, are the 5.1-channel HT-S3300 and 7.1-channel HT-S5300; the latter also includes an iPod dock. Thanks to the HDMI interface and the use of advanced Dolby and DTS codecs, all of these receivers and systems are also capable of decoding lossless Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. The HT-S3300 will ship in March with an MSRP of $379, followed by the HT-S5300 in April for $599.

A third packaged system departs from the traditional HTiB form factor and uses a combination subwoofer and 3D Ready A/V receiver plus two front speakers. It uses Onkyo's own Theater-Dimensional processor to create an immersive and convincing surround effect through just 2.1 channels. The HTX-22HDX has three HDMI v1.4 inputs, handles HD audio formats from DTS and Dolby; offers four distinct audio modes for gaming; and outputs for additional speakers. The HTX-22HDX will ship in May with a $349 MSRP.

"Onkyo's 2010 entry-level product line represents a significant jump over last year's line," said Paul Wasek, Onkyo USA's marketing manager. "We are excited to deliver this first wave of 3D capable products. By upgrading to 1.4, even on the least expensive HTiB, we have eliminated all HDMI pass-through products and allowed HD audio formats to be used across the line. The fact that consumers can now buy a THX-Certified receiver with 1080p upscaling, Burr-Brown DACs, PC input and more for under $600 shows Onkyo's clear commitment to delivering performance and value to consumers."

All of Onkyo's receivers offer exceptional connectivity options with as many as six HDMI inputs, plus component and composite video, numerous stereo input jacks, optical/coaxial digital inputs, and the popular front-panel connections on many models. Two models include Sirius Radio connections, and all these receivers incorporate Onkyo's proprietary Universal Port (U-Port) connector which simplifies connections to optional HD Radio tuners and iPod Docks (included with the HT-S5300).
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Old 06-10-2010, 02:19 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

* If you're running a 3D Blu-ray like Monsters Vs Aliens, then the player needs to output 48p - that is 2 x 24p for each eye.

* As far as bandwidth goes, any recent receiver that can handle a 1080 60p signal + lossless audio via HDMI (that's most of them) is more than up to this challenge.

* A firmware or software upgrade may work with some or many 1.3 receivers?

* If you're receiving 3D on TV, it'll either be side-by-side or interlaced (see here), so your current 1.3 receiver should pass that with no problems, right?

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Old 06-10-2010, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

If you're running a 3D Blu-ray like Monsters Vs Aliens, then the player needs to output 48p - that is 2 x 24p for each eye.

It outputs 1920x2205p@24Hz, which is equivalent to 2 x 1920x1080p@24Hz.

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Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

As far as bandwidth goes, any recent receiver that can handle a 1080 60p signal + lossless audio via HDMI (that's most of them) is more than up to this challenge.

As far as bandwidth only is concerned, yes.

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A firmware or software upgrade may work with some or many 1.3 receivers?

In general, it may work or not depending whether it is firmware-driven (probably yes) or hardware-driven (probably not). It seems that the receiver chips are much harder to upgrade (perhaps not upgradable altogether) than the transmitter chips.

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If you're receiving 3D on TV, it'll either be side-by-side or interlaced (see here), so your current 1.3 receiver should pass that with no problems, right?

It is true for Side-by-Side half and for Frame Sequential at 60Hz (not 120Hz), but the Blu-ray 3D format is Frame Packing and is a completely unknown format for HDMI 1.3.

Frame Packing:
http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/
http://cepro.com/images/uploads/fram...d_3d_large.jpg
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

* If you're receiving 3D on TV, it'll either be side-by-side or interlaced (see here), so your current 1.3 receiver should pass that with no problems, right?

The SbS/TnB video itself will pass through the receiver without problems, but the additional signalling (VSDB in the TV's EDID, VSI sent by the player) will probably not pass through. So, you'll have to manually enable the correct 3D mode in your TVs menu.
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

back when HD first came out though no one really had a dedicated home theater and those costs were entry costs rather than replacing existing system that is working fine to get a new tech. A new tech that isn't always in use.

There is also the issue of replacing high-end current equipment with inferior 3D equipment kinda like how many here who had $2000 non-HDMI AVRs not wanting to spend so much again but also don't want inferior AVR. I currently have a Kuro non-Elite 50" and an Oppo BD-83 and I don't think I'd replace either for 3D.

lol good point.
HDMI - integrates your whole system together.. makes you replace the whole setup once a new version comes out.
Sneeky electronics companies.

Personally thats my biggest issue aswell. You cant just buy just the TV like you did with HDTV. And that panasonic blu ray player is $600 here. wtf thats almost another receiver.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:18 PM
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Basically, for me, the idea of buying a new AVR, in addition to everything else, is laughable. There is no way in hell that I'm forking over that much money. I'd likely have to settle for an inferior AVR, just to get a hdmi 1.4 compliant one.

The only lossless audio source that I have is the Playstation 3. My plan is to have a hdmi switcher to use with the PS3. One of the hdmi's will go directly to the receiver, and the other one will go directly to the TV. I'll also have the PS3 connected via optical. If I'm watching a standard Blu Ray movie, then I'll run it thru the receiver and get the lossless sound. If I'm watching or playing something 3D, then I'm going to have to settle for optical. It's gonna kinda suck to have to do this, but it's better than buying a new AVR that is going to sound as good as the one I already have.

Money doesn't grow on trees!
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:16 PM
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Hey all,
I'm new to the forum. Just bought a panasonic 58vt25 but don't have a 3D receiver. I have a ps3 and would love to be able to use 3D. I understand I can go direct from PS3 > TV and then run optical audio to receiver for audio, but I'd hate to lose the lossless audio over HDMI.

I was wondering if it would be possible to use a splitter (on monoprice: HDMI M to HDMI F X 2) to output to both the TV and Receiver and just switch between the two when I need the 3D signal.

Anyone ever try this?
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozpod View Post

Hey all,
I'm new to the forum. Just bought a panasonic 58vt25 but don't have a 3D receiver. I have a ps3 and would love to be able to use 3D. I understand I can go direct from PS3 > TV and then run optical audio to receiver for audio, but I'd hate to lose the lossless audio over HDMI.

I was wondering if it would be possible to use a splitter (on monoprice: HDMI M to HDMI F X 2) to output to both the TV and Receiver and just switch between the two when I need the 3D signal.

Anyone ever try this?

PS3 can only do 3D games at this time not 3D movies until Sept. However running optical will work but you lose lossless. Not sure about the splitter.
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