3-D demonstration at Best Buy - initial thoughts - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 113 Old 03-18-2010, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Tonight I saw my first home theater 3-D demonstration at Best Buy. It was the Samsung system. Unfortunately, as is usually the case in the big box stores when it comes to video set up, the reflective screen of the Samsung TV was facing the video wall which held all of their other TVs, adding ancillary reflections which greatly distracted from the 3-D viewing experience.

The disc being shown was Monsters versus Aliens. The set was a 240 Hz set although I do not know if it was set to 120 Hz or 240 Hz. Herein lies my main reservation regarding this particular 3-D system, and possibly others.

The main problem is that which plagues IMO all 120 Hz sets is that film looks like video. Granted this is a computer-generated movie so the effect is a little less obvious but I could still tell it was there as opposed to watching it on a 60 Hz set.

I had always presumed that 3-D at 120 Hz would not present a video like effect for film as it was being divided to 60 Hz "per eye".

Are there any technical people out there that could confirm this? Perhaps I was seeing this at running at 240 Hz which would be divided into 120 Hz "per eye"?

I won't watch my films looking like video so this would definitely be a deal breaker for me.

Re: the actual 3-D experience: yes, there was a 3-D effect but it tended to be shallow and I also saw some ghosting in certain objects. I looked at the BD player manual and it said that there was a setting for screen size which I presume adjusts the separation of images based on the size of the screen. I don't know if that was set up correctly or not. But overall I must say I was not real impressed with what I saw, certainly not enough to dish out a major overhaul on my home theater at this point.

I know the prices will come down in time but if everything going to look like video, I'll have to live without it. I hope there is someone out there that can confirm this one way or the other.

Thanks
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post #2 of 113 Old 03-18-2010, 09:10 PM
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Typically the frame interpolation (motion smoothing) in the Samsung sets can be turned off if you don't like the "soap opera" anti-blurring effect it produces. I don't know if it can be turned off in 3D mode, though I don't see why technically it could not be.
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post #3 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 04:38 AM
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Is there a certain prime distance for the 3D effect to be optimal ?

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post #4 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Is there a certain prime distance for the 3D effect to be optimal ?

Art

I'm thinking, close enough to have the screen fill as much of your field of vision as possible, provided you aren't close enough to be seeing pixels.

What's the math on that?
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post #5 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 07:00 AM
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AFAIK when the new Samsung 3D 240 Hz HDTVs are playing FullHD 3D BR content they are using 5:5 pulldown with a blank frame inserted after each frame and therfore frame interpolation is not being used. However, with the making of 24fps cartoon movies it is probably completly possible to eliminate any 24fps judder caused during the actual filming of motiion containing content.
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post #6 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 07:13 AM
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THX recommends a 40 degree viewing angle which is used by this calculator: HDTV Set Up

I tried to reproduce the math, but it didn't work. Run the calculator from this article HDTV Size and Distance Calculations then select THX Standards when you get your results. I corrected the spelling mistakes:

Quote:


...The optimum viewing distance is considered to be the diagonal screen size/.84, or a 40° view angle or less. If you do the math (as I did) you will discover that using .84 and 40° to do your calculations doesn’t produce the same number. When I questioned THX regarding the disparity, they indicated the 40° viewing angle had been rounded, implying that .84 will produce the accurate result. Thus the correct THX field of view in degrees is actually 40.04° if you want to be precise. The view angle is limited to approximately 40° to stop viewers from getting so close that they can see pixel related artifacts indicative of the video display technologies in use today. With display technology that is artifact-free, the optimum view angle would be 52.39°, which is the design goal for the reference location in movie theaters (about 2/3 of the way back). Based on the range recommendations provide by THX, the minimum recommended view angle is approximately 28°. Sitting at that distance will make the limits of human vision a factor, (see the Visual Acuity section for more on this. If the screen is mounted, THX recommends no more than a 15° elevation above a straight on view. Elevating the display beyond 15 degrees will likely led to physical discomfort in prolonged viewing situations.

To get as close as possible for a perfect display, I'd use a 52.39 deg viewing angle and stay within 15 degrees elevation.

All of this is based on 2-D viewing. I'm not going to compromise 2-D distance for 3-D.

(The above articles are from Wikipedia references: Optimum HDTV viewing distance)
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post #7 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 07:58 AM
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I was in Best Buy yesterday and demoed the new 50" Panasonic 3D plasma TV they had on display in their Magnolia department and I was not impressed. (This Best Buy is located at 46 Gosling Rd, Newington/Portsmouth NH = 603-431-1784).

The exact model they have on display is the = Panasonic Model# 50vt20. This model is Panasonic's brand new 2D - 3D duel capability TV. The exact dimensions of their 3D Panasonic display TV = Screen size/dimensions = 50 inch, tv dimensions are 49" x approx28".


First off the picture was DIM, how dim? = about 1/4 to 1/3rd dimmer with the glasses on.

Second, while static 3D images looked fairly decent, as soon as ANY KIND OF MOVEMENT was introduced into the picture, it was all down hill from there: at best the image was very choppy and at its worst, unwatchable... like watching an ancient Edison kinescope WITH BLINDERS ON…; it gave me a headache! And this was in a heavily controlled, "best-case-scenario" setting = 600Hz plasma screen TV with shutter glasses and the image being produced directly via 3D Blu-ray! Because of the problems that exist with 3D motion, I believe lots of people are going to find that they have all sorts of health related issues watching 3D = headaches, nausea, etc… Sounds like fun… NOT!

Anyone who thinks they are going to be able to watch any kind of sports, or film content where there is any amount of movement and action smoothly in 3D, via broadcast cable, fiber optic or satellite TV using "the latest in 3D technology" is D R E A M I N G! AVS members who have any kind of issues with judder, blur, lack of image sharpness, etc, in 2D are going to go out of their minds and need to be hospitalized when they see how bad this LOW-QUALITY "high-tech" 3D technology really handles movement in the real world. If it is this bad in a heavily controlled demo room, using the best equipment they have available, just think how much worse it will be under real-life conditions. AVS members gripe about the quality of Comcast and Direct TV now... wait until they get a load of highly compressed 720p (at best) 3D!

Third; the 50" Panasonic Model# 50vt20 plasma TV they had on display at the BB was a 600Hz set... 600 hertz!... (As someone mentioned in a post below = The Panasonic 3D plasmas use 120 Hz (or an optional setting for 96Hz) refresh rate. What the 600Hz number is the "sub-pixel" refresh rate which has nothing to do with the overall display refresh rate and is just a advertising number they use on all of their plasmas, including standard 60Hz 2D models) and the picture still looked lousy when it came to any kind of movement. My point is this: If 3D is this bad in an ideal setting on a touted 600Hz set; how bad is it going to look on a 60, 120, 240... etc Hz set, using broadcast TV or even 3D Blu-ray? Answer = terrible, but 3D "fanboys" who have bought into the ad campaign hype will still delusionally proclaim how “great” it looks.

Last issue; 3D GLASSES, funny, one of the biggest hurdles to this whole 3D fad... always comes down to... GLASSES. I was told that Panasonic has their own proprietary glasses: You want to watch Panasonic 3D TV, you MUST USE Panasonic's glasses. (The TV comes with two pair but if you need more they are $150 for two. So if you want to have 10 people who want to watch your TV in 3D it is going to cost you $600 extra!) You want to watch SONY 3D TV... you got it, you HAVE TO USE SONY's 3D Glasses... this eliminates competition so their prices stay inflated. Any of you folks ever have a problem having to buy SONY, JVC, Yamaha, Denon OEM replacement parts or additional ANYTHING? You know it is always overpriced and costs a small fortune. Wait until you have to go to these guys for your 3D glasses fix!

While the Panasonic 3D demo at BB was somewhat interesting; the vast amount of perpetual real-life issues inherent with the whole 3D format make it a non-essential, unnecessary format that will remain nothing but a niche fad, in spite of all the hype and bally who.
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post #8 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 08:04 AM
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lol Jmouse

Love your comments.

Sounds like something people will eat up. (Support: Apple anything).
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post #9 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

AFAIK when the new Samsung 3D 240 Hz HDTVs are playing FullHD 3D BR content they are using 5:5 pulldown with a blank frame inserted after each frame and therfore frame interpolation is not being used. However, with the making of 24fps cartoon movies it is probably completly possible to eliminate any 24fps judder caused during the actual filming of motiion containing content.

There's nothing technically stopping Samsung from using frame interpolation in 3D mode, but again it can generally be disabled in the menus. If enabled, then this would easily lead to the "video effect" described above. Even 5:5 judder can be annoying to some, but since the Samsung does 120Hz with black frame insertions, they cannot do 5:5 and will be left with the same judder that converting 24Hz to 60Hz produces.
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post #10 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

I was in BB yesterday and demoed the 46" Panasonic 3D plasma they had on display for quite some time and I was not impressed. .................
Third; the 46" Panasonic plasma TV they had on display at the BB was a 600Hz set... 600 hertz!... and the picture still looked lousy when it came to any kind of movement. My point is this: If 3D is this bad in an ideal setting on a 600Hz set; how bad is it going to look on a 60, 120, 240... etc Hz set, using broadcast TV or even 3D Blu-ray? Answer = terrible, but 3D "fanboys" who have bought into the ad campaign hype will still delusionally proclaim how “great” it looks...............

The Panasonic 3D plasmas use 120 Hz (or an optional setting for 96Hz) refresh rate. What the 600Hz number is the "sub-pixel" refresh rate which has nothing to do with the overall display refresh rate and is just a advertising number they use on all of their plasmas, including standard 60Hz 2D models.

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post #11 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL View Post

lol Jmouse

Love your comments.

Sounds like something people will eat up. (Support: Apple anything).

Yes this 3D proprietary model they are pushing is just like buying or using Apple ANYTHING...: Totally limited, totally controlled, by Apple. Buying and using Apple anything is like willfully putting yourself in prison so that you can use their toy and be told to "have fun" within the confines of your one room.
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post #12 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The Panasonic 3D plasmas use 120 Hz (or an optional setting for 96Hz) refresh rate. What the 600Hz number is the "sub-pixel" refresh rate which has nothing to do with the overall display refresh rate and is just a advertising number they use on all of their plasmas, including standard 60Hz 2D models.

Thanks; leave it to typical BB salesmen who do not know what the heck they are talking about. While I stand corrected, the image still looked nothing short of lousey with any kind of movement.
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post #13 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

Last issue; 3D GLASSES, funny, one of the biggest hurdles to this whole 3D fad... always comes down to... GLASSES. I was told that Panasonic has their own proprietary glasses: You want to watch Panasonic 3D TV, you MUST USE Panasonic's glasses. (The TV comes with two pair but if you need more they are $150 for two. So if you want to have 10 people who want to watch your TV in 3D it is going to cost you $600 extra!) You want to watch SONY 3D TV... you got it, you HAVE TO USE SONY's 3D Glasses... this eliminates competition so their prices stay inflated. Any of you folks ever have a problem having to buy SONY, JVC, Yamaha, Denon OEM replacement parts or additional ANYTHING? You know it is always overpriced and costs a small fortune. Wait until you have to go to these guys for your 3D glasses fix!

This is like making a huge fuss over not being able to use Playstation 3 controllers with your xBox 360. It's not that big of a deal. Besides, 3rd party glasses are already available that work with all 3D TVs. Pricing will obviously come down, as well.

Click here for my home theater setup
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post #14 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

Thanks; leave it to typical BB salesmen who do not know what the heck they are talking about. While I stand corrected, the image still looked nothing short of lousey with any kind of movement.

I don't know what you were watching, but I have a nice 27 minute long 3D demo (from satellite) that is nothing but motion. It has clips of car racing, basketball, skateboarding, remote controlled helicopters, etc. There isn't any stuttering at all.

Also, have you heard about the Xpand X103s? They'll be universally compatible with all displays.

Opinions are great, and are welcomed on this forum, but every single one of your posts are anti-3D, and a lot of times, they are copy/pasted to several threads.

I'm beginning to doubt the validity of some of your posts.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #15 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 11:08 AM
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I saw the Samsung 3D display also but I thought it looked great. I was anxious to see any difference between Full 3D and checkerboard that is used on my 82" Mitsubishi DLP playing Avatar The Game for over 70 hours. They both look great. Can't wait to try 3D BR movies when they become available.
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post #16 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 11:12 AM
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I just came from the Best Buy near me, they had a Sammy plasma (I think it was a plasma?) set up running Monsters VS Aliens. The 3-D effect was alright, but I did notice motion judder, so there was probably some sort of interpolation happening. What bothered me more wasn't what was happening on screen, but what was happening off of it!

When I looked away from the display while still wearing the glasses, everything had a flicker to it! I asked my buddy who was with me and the salesman if I was crazy or if they saw it too and they noticed it "kind of". It bothered me a lot.
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post #17 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 11:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_danger View Post

I just came from the Best Buy near me, they had a Sammy plasma (I think it was a plasma?) set up running Monsters VS Aliens. The 3-D effect was alright, but I did notice motion judder, so there was probably some sort of interpolation happening. What bothered me more wasn't what was happening on screen, but what was happening off of it!

It was their new LED/LCD 3DTV. The 3D PDPs don't ship unti April 2nd

Quote:


When I looked away from the display while still wearing the glasses, everything had a flicker to it! I asked my buddy who was with me and the salesman if I was crazy or if they saw it too and they noticed it "kind of". It bothered me a lot.

LOL - what you were seeing are the LCD shutter glasses blocking one eye, then they other with no 3D content to look at. They were out of sync with the 3DTV and you weren't looking at the images on the 3DTV
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post #18 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 11:36 AM
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Nick,
If when you looked away from the TV the IR receiver in the glases was not in the direct line of sight of the IR emitter in the TV which is in the lower left hand corner of the bezel then your glases were not in sync and flicker or ghosting would easily occur.
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post #19 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 11:45 AM
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Cool, glad to know it was just a syncronization issue. I thought 120Hz was supposed to be "undetectable" by the human eye. Isn't that how fast the shutter glasses are supposed to switch? Or is it 60Hz per eye that they switch?
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post #20 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

Thanks; leave it to typical BB salesmen who do not know what the heck they are talking about. While I stand corrected, the image still looked nothing short of lousey with any kind of movement.

This past football season the USC/Ohio State game was shot in 3D. They were showing clips from the game at CES. The movement was very smooth. Obviously movies at 24 frames per second aren't going to look as smooth--at least without frame interpolation.
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post #21 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819 View Post

I don't know what you were watching, but I have a nice 27 minute long 3D demo (from satellite) that is nothing but motion. It has clips of car racing, basketball, skateboarding, remote controlled helicopters, etc. There isn't any stuttering at all.

Also, have you heard about the Xpand X103s? They'll be universally compatible with all displays.

Opinions are great, and are welcomed on this forum, but every single one of your posts are anti-3D, and a lot of times, they are copy/pasted to several threads.

I'm beginning to doubt the validity of some of your posts.

You can "doubt" all you want, I auditioned the brand new Panasonic 46" at BB yesterday like I said and reported exctly what I saw... the motion judder and blur were terrible and the picture was DIM with the glasses on. You may not like what I have to say but those were my impressions and I am not alone regarding 3D being nothing but a niche fad with future real-life broadcast video quality on par with rear projection TV. People on AVS think they have macroblocking and other issues with their compressed 2D piggy backed Comcast and satellite service feed now, just wait until they start pumping out a higher compressed signal just to try and provide 3D.
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post #22 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 02:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

You can "doubt" all you want, I auditioned the brand new Panasonic 46" at BB yesterday like I said and reported exctly what I saw... the motion judder and blur were terrible and the picture was DIM with the glasses on. You may not like what I have to say but those were my impressions and I am not alone regarding 3D being nothing but a niche fad with future real-life broadcast video quality on par with rear projection TV. People of AVS think they have macroblocking and other issues with their compressed 2D piggy backed Comcast and satellite service feed now, just wait until they start pumping out a higher compressed signal just to try and provide 3D.

Panasonic didn't release a 46" 3DTV. Their only 3DTV is their VT20 50"
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post #23 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 02:28 PM
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Busted???? lol
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post #24 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

You can "doubt" all you want, I auditioned the brand new Panasonic 46" at BB yesterday like I said and reported exctly what I saw... the motion judder and blur were terrible and the picture was DIM with the glasses on. You may not like what I have to say but those were my impressions and I am not alone regarding 3D being nothing but a niche fad with future real-life broadcast video quality on par with rear projection TV. People on AVS think they have macroblocking and other issues with their compressed 2D piggy backed Comcast and satellite service feed now, just wait until they start pumping out a higher compressed signal just to try and provide 3D.

Cable and satellite won't be worse than it is for 2D, because the 3D method they'll be using uses the same bandwidth, due to half-resolution. Now, if it were full 1080p, you'd have a valid issue.

And for the record, I love my RPTV.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #25 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

It was their new LED/LCD 3DTV. The 3D PDPs don't ship unti April 2nd

LOL - what you were seeing are the LCD shutter glasses blocking one eye, then they other with no 3D content to look at. They were out of sync with the 3DTV and you weren't looking at the images on the 3DTV


Sorry but your assumptions are totally false and I frankly do not like being accused of being a liar (post #23). I just called the Best Buy I visited yesterday, they are located at 46 Gosling Rd, Newington/Portsmouth NH = 603-431-1784 (fee free to contact them your self and confirm what I am telling you if you choose not to believe me) and checked with their "Magnolia" department where their Panasonic 3D display is set up in order to get the exact model and dimensions.

This is exactly what they told me regarding the exact model = Panasonic Model# 50vt20 This model is Panasonic's brand new 3D or 2D duel capability TV, and lastly the exact dimension of their 3D Panasonic display TV = Screen size/dimensions = 50 inch tv dimensions are 49" x approx28".

Again the mistake in my previous post was another case of the Best Buy "sales man" being uninformed and providing the wrong information regarding my query. Their 3D Panasonic display set is not 46" but 50".

As for the quality of the display, I stand by my previous post and observations.
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post #26 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Busted???? lol

No; uninformed Best Buy salesman gave me the wrong dimensions. See Post #25. By the way, I do not like being accused of lying.
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post #27 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Panasonic didn't release a 46" 3DTV. Their only 3DTV is their VT20 50"


You are correct, the Best Buy salesman gave me the wrong dimensions on their Panasonic 3D display. I have made corrections to my original post.
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post #28 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 04:42 PM
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As for how good or bad the Panasonic 3D plasma looks, there are many published comparisions between it and the Samsung and just about all are saying the Panasonic has less ghosting and motion issues. There may have been some setup issue with the specific Panasonic unit at your locat BB store, as I doubt very many of their employees will have a clue on how to correctly configure the user settings to provide the best 3D image. I'm hoping one of my local BBs will have both the Samsung and Panasonic set up this weekend so I can make my own comparison.

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post #29 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 06:35 PM
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Almost all the information we're getting on 3D devices right now is anecdotal. Everyone who's interested in 3D owes it to himself/herself to go see these displays in person. That's what I've been doing for the past week. I hope to see the Panasonic plasma display this weekend.

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post #30 of 113 Old 03-19-2010, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post

Sorry but your assumptions are totally false and I frankly do not like being accused of being a liar (post #23). I just called the Best Buy I visited yesterday, they are located at 46 Gosling Rd, Newington/Portsmouth NH = 603-431-1784 (fee free to contact them your self and confirm what I am telling you if you choose not to believe me) and checked with their "Magnolia" department where their Panasonic 3D display is set up in order to get the exact model and dimensions.

This is exactly what they told me regarding the exact model = Panasonic Model# 50vt20 This model is Panasonic's brand new 3D or 2D duel capability TV, and lastly the exact dimension of their 3D Panasonic display TV = Screen size/dimensions = 50 inch tv dimensions are 49" x approx28".

Again the mistake in my previous post was another case of the Best Buy "sales man" being uninformed and providing the wrong information regarding my query. Their 3D Panasonic display set is not 46" but 50".

As for the quality of the display, I stand by my previous post and observations.

1. Post #23 was not posted by me. It was posted by JOHNnDENVER. So why did you quote me and not him? I accused you of NOTHING. I just corrected you when you thought it was a PDP you were seeing and it wasn't. It was their new LED edge lit LCD.

2. I went to Best Buy today - a few hours ago and I SPECIFICALLY did what you did - turned my head away from the display and looked at something; "over my shoulder" - just like you did, and I didn't see what you saw. No flickering whatsoever. It just looked like I had my polarized sunglasses on inside the store. How do I know? Because I walked into the store with them on, then I took them off.
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