Popular Myths About 3D - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 200 Old 12-19-2010, 10:03 AM
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How about this for a myth: 3D for the home is worth the investment of extra $. I have seen a few 3D movies, and found the 'out-of-screen' content amusing, but certainly not indispensible. If given the choice, I will always choose 2D. I have viewed 3D TVs at a few different shops, a couple with excellent dedicated rooms and top-of-the-line ancillaries. The 'out-of-screen' content in these demos was consistently underwhelming. In fact, it always seemed just plain gimicky. I am not a fan, and consider the whole thing a huge marketing hype from corporations who have bought into it and must now sell it. In a perfect world, it would just fade away. Unfortunately, it may become sufficiently popular so as to be the driving force behind movie and TV production, making 2D obsolete.
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post #92 of 200 Old 12-21-2010, 04:01 PM
 
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Dear Mathew,

Thank you for your interest in DLP(r) Link.

You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.

The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.

In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.

Sincerely,

DLP(r) Call Center
Texas Instruments
888-357-2984
www.dlp.com
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post #93 of 200 Old 01-03-2011, 11:27 AM
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Myth #17 - this is the first time I've heard anyone state that the CEM's haven't yet incorporated ethernet over HDMI...that makes a lot of sense. I got a 'high speed' cable from Amazon, and then I wondered if that would be the one feature that required a 1.4a when I couldn't get it to work. If that feature is not yet available, then that's probably a much better reason!

Wonderful article. Thank you for continuing the updates.
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post #94 of 200 Old 01-09-2011, 09:09 AM
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Thanks for spending so much time on this post.
Truely great information. Thanks.
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post #95 of 200 Old 03-06-2011, 08:37 AM
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I didn't read this whole thread but stating that 3D on a TV is anything like it is at the movies is a myth.

The small screen size imposes a signficant barrier to the immersive experience. In short, you see the boundary to the 3D effect at normal viewing distances (rather than the "in your face" demos that are provided at the big box stores). This makes it look more like a shoe box diorama rather than the immersive 3D experience that you get at the theater. A totally different experience that renders the whole thing useless to me.

Why has this serious flaw to the whole thing gotten more exposure in the press.

I can imagine that a front projector with 3D would look great at home for the tiny percentage of us who have those.

Richard
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post #96 of 200 Old 03-06-2011, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhassle View Post

I didn't read this whole thread but stating that 3D on a TV is anything like it is at the movies is a myth.

The small screen size imposes a signficant barrier to the immersive experience. In short, you see the boundary to the 3D effect at normal viewing distances (rather than the "in your face" demos that are provided at the big box stores). This makes it look more like a shoe box diorama rather than the immersive 3D experience that you get at the theater. A totally different experience that renders the whole thing useless to me.

Why has this serious flaw to the whole thing gotten more exposure in the press.

I can imagine that a front projector with 3D would look great at home for the tiny percentage of us who have those.

Richard

And you don't think the same thing happens when you watch a movie on a 50 foot screen versus at home on a 50" display? It has nothing to do with 2D versus 3D.
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post #97 of 200 Old 03-24-2011, 09:39 AM
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just got my new 3d tv! can't wait
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post #98 of 200 Old 03-25-2011, 09:26 AM
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Just yesterday in Best Buy I saw an LCD flat panel made by LG that displays 3D using the cheap polarized glasses from the movie theatres. I know next to nothing about 3D tech but the info in this thread seems to indicate that this should not be the case.

S
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post #99 of 200 Old 03-25-2011, 12:43 PM
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That's passive 3D, which uses an interlaced format. Search for the Vizio passive 3D thread to read up on the technology.
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post #100 of 200 Old 03-28-2011, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhassle View Post

I didn't read this whole thread but stating that 3D on a TV is anything like it is at the movies is a myth.

The small screen size imposes a signficant barrier to the immersive experience. In short, you see the boundary to the 3D effect at normal viewing distances (rather than the "in your face" demos that are provided at the big box stores). This makes it look more like a shoe box diorama rather than the immersive 3D experience that you get at the theater. A totally different experience that renders the whole thing useless to me.

Why has this serious flaw to the whole thing gotten more exposure in the press.

I can imagine that a front projector with 3D would look great at home for the tiny percentage of us who have those.

Richard

As Lee pointed out, the size of the displayed image needs to be compared to the seating distance. Most people watch their TVs (regular TV, even for movie-nights, etc) at a size/distance ratio that provides a smaller field of view than the so-called-serious HT geeks like me. e.g., I would think a lot of the people buying 50" 3D sets are seated about 10 feet away, on average, probably with non-ideal seating arrangements (like a sectional, or loveseats 90 deg to the screen). My HT front row is 10 feet from my 106" screen, and I would like a bigger screen. But one of my friends like to watch from the back row, because the front row is too overwhelming for her.

(I must admit I have no feedback regarding 3D, as I have not yet received my new 3D PJ - soon, though...)

That being said, I would also think many people are "satisfied" with their 50" 3D sets at 10 feet away. Not everyone is as manically involved in film-watching as the average AVS poster. Especially if it for the kids, who will sit on the floor at watch the 50" TV from 5 feet away.

IMHO, YMMV (or more accurately Your Distance May Vary),

shinksma

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my captors.
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post #101 of 200 Old 03-29-2011, 11:55 PM
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I had some additional thoughts here. I'd love some feedback in the comments here or at the blog. . .

http://mandarintheater.wordpress.com...-3-dimensions/

Best,

Mark C
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post #102 of 200 Old 03-31-2011, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeproav View Post

I had some additional thoughts here. I'd love some feedback in the comments here or at the blog. . .

http://mandarintheater.wordpress.com...-3-dimensions/

Best,

Mark C

Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but in my opinion, you obviously misunderstand the current state of the art, and you are about a year behind in your research. Please do some heavy reading here and on other forums.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 

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post #103 of 200 Old 04-01-2011, 01:17 AM
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Wow. I didn't know about #1. interesting! and #10 annoys me!
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post #104 of 200 Old 04-23-2011, 12:17 AM
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Could someone explain why my head feels "heavy" and my eyes tired after watching a 3D t.v. with active-shutter glasses, yet when I see a 3D movie at the theater, using passive glasses, I feel perfectly fine?
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post #105 of 200 Old 04-23-2011, 09:32 AM
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"Stop being duped by the 3D scam"

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hin...83?tag=nl.e010

http://entertainment.slashdot.org/st...By-the-3D-Scam

I tend to agree with most of the points- films not shot with 3D cams in the first place should never be viewed in 3D (i.e. 2D upconverts).

Most purpose made 3D films are gimmicky, except for the Cameron-class flicks. Even a Cameron class flick must stand up to the 2D test- if the movie is not engaging and "good" without the glasses, then it's not worth it with the glasses.

Lastly, any long time videophile knows that a well calibrated, high contrast, good gray scale, good colorimetry, good black level display can achieve a real, no foolin' 3D effect, further amplified with current state of the art 120Hz frame displays, without glasses.

And the 3d effect of a well calibrated display and good source is very real, not something only some people can perceive, from any seating position.

And the effect does not depend on BluRay (i.e. 1080p)- I've seen it on ISF'd CRT front and rear projectors (and CRT tubes) with DVD's and Laserdiscs since the mid 90's.

It is only now that ISF'd plasma's, some LED LCD's, and Epson UB-class LCD's (and probably 3 chip DLP's and some LCOS) can achieve the ISF'd 3 dimensionality, so most non-AV hobby people have never experienced it- the black levels and colorimetry/grayscale of good CRT's used to be the only way to achieve it. Even funnier is that even plain old 480i CRT's could achieve the 3 dimensionality- no progressive scan needed.

Just as all the audiophiles (guys with high end monoblock amps and $1000 CAL CD players) I know laugh about really needing anything more than well mastered red book CD (16 bit, 44.1Khz) or lossless PCM 2 channel on concert DVD's vs "HD Audio" on BluRay (watermarked to boot, destroying any bit perfect-ness there was), no HT enthusiast I know, with gear ranging from $250 Panasonic SAXR50 receivers to Lexicon processors and PSB speakers through Revel and Vandersteens, takes steroscopic 3D seriously.


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post #106 of 200 Old 04-24-2011, 09:14 PM
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I owned both 2D 1080p BENQ W6000 projector and 3D 720p Acer H5360BD projector projecting on 114" screen with 10 feet distance. 3D to me is not a gimmick or scam. The depth perception is great but again, I would say the movie itself will either make or break the 3D. The problem now is there is not enough quality 3D content so early adopters tends to grab any 3D material they could find. Try out IMAX under the sea 2D and 3D version and I think most people will agree that the 3D version give you an illusion you are there with the divers.

Another selling point for 3D is for gamers. First person or third person shooter in 3D is an awesome experience. It's like mention in Matrix movie, you can't tell a person how 3D feel but only experience it. Anyway, I agree 3D need to be watch on big screen as the depth is relative to width.
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post #107 of 200 Old 04-25-2011, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post

Lastly, any long time videophile knows that a well calibrated, high contrast, good gray scale, good colorimetry, good black level display can achieve a real, no foolin' 3D effect, further amplified with current state of the art 120Hz frame displays, without glasses.

And the 3d effect of a well calibrated display and good source is very real, not something only some people can perceive, from any seating position.

And the effect does not depend on BluRay (i.e. 1080p)- I've seen it on ISF'd CRT front and rear projectors (and CRT tubes) with DVD's and Laserdiscs since the mid 90's.

It is only now that ISF'd plasma's, some LED LCD's, and Epson UB-class LCD's (and probably 3 chip DLP's and some LCOS) can achieve the ISF'd 3 dimensionality, so most non-AV hobby people have never experienced it- the black levels and colorimetry/grayscale of good CRT's used to be the only way to achieve it. Even funnier is that even plain old 480i CRT's could achieve the 3 dimensionality- no progressive scan needed.

What are you talking about? If reality fails to have a significant 3D effect with one eye closed then how does a display achieve it?
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post #108 of 200 Old 04-25-2011, 04:10 PM
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I know the effect he's talking about (one eyed 3d), it doesn't come close to a 3d tv. I watch everything converted to 3d on my LG passive, it's that much better just with conversion.
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post #109 of 200 Old 04-25-2011, 04:25 PM
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I like the er, "myth" where some people seem to think that "3d adds nothing to the story" (this was on bluray.com, mind you). Errr... yeah, neither does: color, 70 foot screens at the theater, a comfy chair, popcorn, 5.1 or 7.1 digital audio, 1080p, et cetera, et cetera. Doesn't mean they don't add to the enjoyment of the film.
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post #110 of 200 Old 04-25-2011, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post

I like the er, "myth" where some people seem to think that "3d adds nothing to the story" (this was on bluray.com, mind you). Errr... yeah, neither does: color, 70 foot screens at the theater, a comfy chair, popcorn, 5.1 or 7.1 digital audio, 1080p, et cetera, et cetera. Doesn't mean they don't add to the enjoyment of the film.

Good comment!

For that matter, as far as the story is concerned, the book is usually better....

Of course, now we have to be concerned with the display resolution of the book version, as well!
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post #111 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

I know the effect he's talking about (one eyed 3d), it doesn't come close to a 3d tv. I watch everything converted to 3d on my LG passive, it's that much better just with conversion.

I recently saw an ISF'd Epson 8500UB projector playing Avatar BluRay "2D" on a 9ft screen in a light controlled room.

The 3 dimensionality was quite striking and not subtle.

3 dimensionality is not simply a function of stereoscopic separation of images. 3D-ness is heavily influenced by accurate gray scale, colorimetry and black level/shadow detail.

Think about it logically from everyday eyesight.

Viewing the person standing next to you- does it take two of them to make them appear "3D" to you?

Why should it necessarily take two images on a surface a distance away from you to see 3 dimensionality?

I know what someone may say- the geometric distances from the person's depth to each eye.

But that's what good gray scale and shadow detail can do- they can give your eye-brain system enough "depth cues" to make you perceive 3 dimensionality.

In the past, it took a well qualified ISF calibrator and a good quality CRT to do this. Only in the past two years or so have affordable LCD front projectors achieved this. Soon, more panels should achieve the contrast, gray scale accuracy and shadow detail necessary. Reasonable room light control is needed, too.

Again, I have only seen the effect on ISF'd CRT's up until 12 months ago when I saw an ISF'd Epson UB projector. No one uses CRT's any more, and most home theater people of the past 10+ years have used mass produced LCD's or DLP's, which even if ISF'd, could not achieve the contrast, shadow detail, or accurate gray scale needed to achieve the 3 dimensionality. We've all been chasing pixel counts, lumens, and screen size up until now. Now the game will change back to the basics of colorimetry, gray scale accuracy and shadow detail.

I think this debate will go the way of the audio 2-channel purist vs multichannel audio wars, i.e. "which religion is best?"


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post #112 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 07:11 AM
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RGB,

Not sure, but isn't the simple answer that to see in 3D the guy next to you that your eyes see slightly different views of him as they're spaced apart. To see the same thing on the screen, you have shutters on your glasses that work in tandem with different images being flashed on the screen that recreates this perspective difference? Not sure, but it does seem to make sense.

By the way, I was at a friend's home who has a new 3D projector playing the 3D version of Avatar. I know he hasn't done anything to calibrate but I saw the same thing that I noticed at the commercial theater and that is that the shadow areas were a bit dark and less saturated. This might and probably is due to calibration or rather lack of calibration. Did you notice that on the calibrated system you recently viewed?

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post #113 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 07:12 AM
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An ISF'd, quality display with sufficient gray scale and shadow detail addresses the monocular cues described here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception

Stereoscopic 3D displays address the Binocular cues.

Curious how the monocular cues outnumber the binocular cues, isn't it?

...and one out of the three binocular cues depends on- you guessed it- shadows!

Also, see

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Quote:
Sources of information about 3D shape

There are many different aspects of optical stimulation that are known to provide perceptually salient information about 3D shape. Several of these properties are exemplified in Figure 1. They include variations of image intensity or shading, gradients of optical texture from patterns of polka dots or surface contours, and line drawings that depict the edges and vertices of objects.Other sources of visual information are defined by systematic transformations among multiple images, including the disparity between each eye’s view in binocular vision, and the optical deformations that occur when objects are observed in motion

Just as a 2 channel audio purist will claim that multichannel setups are a crutch to make up for poor stereo imaging (or bad room layout vs artificial audio room correction, etc), a video purist can claim that stereoscopic 3D video is a crutch to make up for poor colorimetery, gray scale and shadow/edge detail.

Note I am not claiming that stereoscopic 3D display systems and well calibrated displays with best in class gray scale and shadow detail are completely equivalent re: the 3D effect. But for me and most others in the AV hobby I know locally, we would take the color/gray/shadow accurate dislpay any day of the week over a stereoscopic display.


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post #114 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post


Just as a 2 channel audio purist will claim that multichannel setups are a crutch to make up for poor stereo imaging (or bad room layout vs artificial audio room correction, etc), a video purist can claim that stereoscopic 3D video is a crutch to make up for poor colorimetery, gray scale and shadow/edge detail.

They would be wrong though. I doubt you will find any mono purists out there for example. Some of the depth cues can be recreated with a single image, but for a normal person you require proper stereoscopic images to correctly perceive 3D. For people who struggle to perceive stereoscopy in real life they may perceive more '3D' in 2D images as they have come to rely on the other visual clues.
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post #115 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

RGB,



By the way, I was at a friend's home who has a new 3D projector playing the 3D version of Avatar. I know he hasn't done anything to calibrate but I saw the same thing that I noticed at the commercial theater and that is that the shadow areas were a bit dark and less saturated. This might and probably is due to calibration or rather lack of calibration. Did you notice that on the calibrated system you recently viewed?

On the system I viewed, the shadow detail was outstanding, though I only viewed for several minutes, near the end of the film.


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post #116 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 06:11 PM
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Rgb, I have a calibrated 73" Mitsubishi top of the line CRT-RPTV. The sense of depth on it doesn't come close to the depth of my passive 3D tv. Yes there is a sense of 3D with the Mitsubishi. If it isn't obvious to you, then it just isn't obvious to YOU. BTW the shadow detail on the passive is outstanding also and it holds up in a bright room, along with the blacks, unlike the Mits. When I watch 2D, I watch the Mits.
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post #117 of 200 Old 04-26-2011, 07:37 PM
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Excellent discussion:

Does [stereoscopic] 3D Make Your Head Happy Or Ache?

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/1...-Happy-Or-Ache

of note:

Quote:
Re:No one? (Score:4, Informative)
by JustinOpinion (1246824) writes: on Wednesday March 30, @05:41PM (#35671562)
Indeed. Humans infer distances and thus reconstruct three-dimensional scenes from their two-dimensional retinas using at least five levels of measurement/processing:

1. Focal depth: based on how much the eye has to focus
2. Convergence: based on the slight differences in pointing of the two eyes
3. Stereoscopy: based on the slight differences between the left and right image
4. Parallax: the different displacements/motions of objects at different distances
5. Visual inference: reconstructing using cues like occlusion, lighting, etc.

When you watch a normal 2D movie, 1, 2, 3, and 4 don't work. So your brain relies entirely on #5. This turns out to work remarkably well, because our brains are quite good at inferring and guessing what the real 3D scene looks like. (For instance, whenever looking at faraway objects, this is pretty much all you have to work with.) Move-makers have also learned how to best frame shots to make things look 'right'. And at least 1, 2, and 3 agree with each other, so your eyes can simply focus on the theater's screen (it also helps that the screen is far away).

The various versions of "3D" try to trick you, but unfortunately they don't hit all 5 of the above and so this confuses your brain. A typical 'glasses' setup tricks you using #3, but now the position of objects as determined by #3 doesn't match 1 or 2, so your brain gets confused (tiredness and headaches ensue). And try as it might, it can't compensate (e.g. no matter how hard it tries, it can't bring out-of-focus things into focus). Really bad 3D (where things 'jump out' at you and whatnot) can even violate #5. Ultimately your brain isn't happy because half the signals are saying one thing (distance to the theater screen) and the other half are saying something else (object really close to you!).

Nintendo's 3DS apparently tries to use parallax to fool your brain, but again the effect won't be perfect, so your brain will be unhappy.

To be truly 3D, you would need to record, and then reproduce/project, the entire waveform (e.g. collect light from every angle impinging on your camera 'screen'). In principle holography can do this, but in practice we don't have good technology. Besides, this causes many other problems (e.g. every person in a theater sees a slightly different angle, that's not necessarily desirable). True 3D isn't going to be technologically feasible anytime soon. In the meantime, we will have only approximate 3D solutions... which it seems are actually worse than just allowing the person's brain to fill in the blanks.
Like DLP rainbows, many people can't do stereoscopic 3D displays due to headaches, nausea (motion sickness) ,etc, for reasons cited above.


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post #118 of 200 Old 04-27-2011, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post

Like DLP rainbows, many people can't do stereoscopic 3D displays due to headaches, nausea (motion sickness) ,etc, for reasons cited above.

Hmmmm. I wonder how many have bought a new set and it took a few days to find out that they can't tolerate 3D? How soon would this likely show up if it shows up at all? ...and does it show up on passive (non shutter) systems?

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post #119 of 200 Old 04-27-2011, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

...and does it show up on passive (non shutter) systems?

Yes. The incongruity between #3 (stereoscopy) and #1 (focal depth) + #2 (convergence) above still exists with polarized glasses or any other method that uses stereoscopy with images generated on a 2D plane, i.e. ALL current theatrical and home 3D displays.

http://hothardware.com/News/3D-Does-...appy--or-Ache/

Quote:


About a year ago, much news was made about how 3D could cause headaches and visual disturbances. One report went so far as to blame 3D for causing a car crash. (An 18 year-old reportedly blacked out while driving after watching the 3D film Alice in Wonderland.). Researchers found that Stereo 3D movies and television could cause people to suffer as many as seven perceptual problems, said Martin Banks, a professor of optometry and vision science at the University of California at Berkeley. Banks found that as the distance to the 3D display is reduced, the brain has more problems with the 3D techniques used to fake it into seeing an object as closer than it really is. Banks had also warned that children's exposure to 3D should be limited.



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post #120 of 200 Old 04-28-2011, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post

[snip] ...and most home theater people of the past 10+ years have used mass produced LCD's or DLP's, which even if ISF'd, could not achieve the contrast, shadow detail, or accurate gray scale needed to achieve the 3 dimensionality. [snip]

Rgb, I agree with most everything you are saying about 3 dimensionality in 2D displays, except I must take exception to the comment I quoted above.

I have had several (calibrated) DLPs, and even the 5 year old Mits DLP displayed this dimensionality. It depends on the source material as well.

I used to tell people all the time that, at the beginning of Rio Bravo, when Dean Martin dismounts, he is standing exactly three feet and 10 inches in front of his horse. I would tell them I know, because I stuck my tape measure into the screen and measured it!

It is that good.

By "that good", I mean from your chair, you could almost believe that you could measure it. I also tell people I've had to replace my carpet, because the horses in Westerns keep grazing on it!

Exaggerations? Yes. But they make the point.

At the beginning of The Searchers, when John Wayne walks to the back of the room while the posse is forming, he really appears to recede into the distance. In this scene and others, it appears as if you are looking into the room and could reach in and pick up a coffee cup from the table.

There are many more programs and movies where this is apparent, and a DLP is definitely no slouch at this when calibrated.

Today's DLPs are a lot better than people think.

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