What is the cause for Ghosting an how do you fix it? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I just got the Samsung UN55C7000 today.

Before I point fingers at the TV.
What is the cause for ghosting and can I fix it, how do I fix it?

Got it hooked-up and started watching monster vs aliens,
(Also did a firmware update on both the TV and Blu-ray player).
The ghosting is very bad and is a deal breaker for me, I am about to return the set-up for a refund.


And I see what some people were saying about the light around the edge, Does not bother me that much.
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post #2 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 04:53 PM
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I just posted something about this. I'm pretty sure there is something wrong in your set up. What HDMI cable are you using?

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post #3 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 05:06 PM
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I would wonder if the glasses are perfectly synced to the TV. Even a very small fraction of a second would make a huge difference. Does the TV have some way to adjust/tweak the glasses sync signal?
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post #4 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 05:08 PM
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I started a thread on this issue. Don't know if it's a problem with the display or the glasses Samsung includes with the set. Since there are no other glasses to test on the set at this time, there's no way to know which is the culprit.

It's a complete deal breaker for me, though I'm not buying any set until some more options are out there.

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post #5 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrennem View Post

I would wonder if the glasses are perfectly synced to the TV. Even a very small fraction of a second would make a huge difference. Does the TV have some way to adjust/tweak the glasses sync signal?

Unless there is a design flaw, there should be no need to adjust anything related to the glasses and display sync. I highly doubt there are any user adjustment for sync.

The basic concept of syncing active LCD glasses to an electronic display is over two decades old, and is not an overly complicated technical task.

Of course, it could always be a matter of cutting corners or poor engineering.

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post #6 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it is 1.4 (15.8Gbps) monster cable.

Have not found any-way to adjust/tweak the glasses sync signal.
(fyi, also note there is not a 3D sync jack on the back at-all)


The glasses are the cheapest set that they have.
The next step-up which is what they were using for the in-store-demo cost a little more.
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post #7 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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.
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post #8 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad SCR View Post

I think it is 1.4 (15.8Gbps) monster cable.

Have not found any-way to adjust/tweak the glasses sync signal.
(fyi, also note there is not a 3D sync jack on the back at-all)


The glasses are the cheapest set that they have.
The next step-up which is what they were using for the in-store-demo cost a little more.

I think those are the rechargeables not yet available on the market. That cord isn't totally for security, it's the usb connection for charging, and I doubt they work better than the battery model.

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post #9 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I could have goten a pair of them today, They had a box of them out by mistake with the security tag thing.


I can pause the movie; Close one eye and the ghost is gone, close the other eye and the ghost is there.

Other times; I can pause the movie; Close one eye and the ghost is there on one side, close the other eye and the ghost is there on the other side.
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post #10 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad SCR View Post

I could have goten a pair of them today, They had a box of them out by mistake.


I can pause the movie; Close one eye and the ghost is gone, close the other eye and the ghost is there.

Other times; I can pause the movie; Close one eye and the ghost is there on one side, close the other eye and the ghost is there on the other side.

When you pause the movie don't they only sync on one side? Way too technical for me but it seems (to me) that to see 3D with shutter glasses there has to be movement.

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post #11 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 07:10 PM
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Sales rep during a BB demo today mentioned the ghosting issue and it was clearly visible to me on some scenes. He said the Panny 3D demo that have in another store does not exhibit any ghosting so to him it is more of an lcd issue.
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post #12 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 07:17 PM
 
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Ghosting begins at 45 seconds

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post #13 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbturbo2 View Post

Sales rep during a BB demo today mentioned the ghosting issue and it was clearly visible to me on some scenes. He said the Panny 3D demo that have in another store does not exhibit any ghosting so to him it is more of an lcd issue.

This same scenario is in all the 3D/New Samsung threads. I've seen it both ways, different days, on the same TV. ?????? I think, until proven otherwise, that it's a set up problem.

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post #14 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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If it's a set up problem, then what is the correct set-up.

Is it a software set-up problem and/or hardware ?

How do I set it up right?

It came as a full package from BB.
3d samsung tv, two 3d samsung glasses, 3d samsung Blu-ray player, 3d m-vs-a movie, and a hdmi 1.4 cable.
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post #15 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad SCR View Post

If it's a set up problem, then what is the correct set-up.

Is it a software set-up problem and/or hardware ?

How do I set it up right?

It came as a full package from BB.
3d samsung tv, two 3d samsung glasses, 3d samsung Blu-ray player, 3d m-vs-a movie, and a hdmi 1.4 cable.

The only way to know that would be for you to list all of your settings so we could see what's what.

No light dimmers, wireless phones or flouresencent lights right?
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post #16 of 40 Old 03-25-2010, 09:53 PM
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I've seen ghosting on every C7000 demo I've looked at, both at BB and Fry's, with both types of glasses (rechargeable and otherwise).

It's especially apparent looking at Monsters vs Aliens scene on the bridge where you can see the ghosting on bridge support posts and cables (dark red on a light blue background).

It seems like an inherent design issue on Samsung's first generation 3d technology.
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post #17 of 40 Old 03-26-2010, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I setup a little test using an opto-transistor (Ledtech # LT9593-91-0125) To read what is being transmitted to the 3D glasses.

They only go one way ( the glasses do not talk back).



hear are some bmp's from my oscilloscope.

the "3D output ...." are raw from the opto-transistor directly which is an inverted signal ( what is high is low; low is high )

The scope_01 : I used an comparator to set a thresh-hold to give an non-inverted signal
LL
LL
LL
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post #18 of 40 Old 03-26-2010, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I was surprised that the output frequancy for the 3D sync was so low.

I was thinking it would be greater than 60Hz. (even 120+ Hz)
And thinking it would be more of a Data stream to the glasses at the Khz range.



The only way for me to take a better reading would be to open the TV up and connect directly to the IR-LED used for the sync.
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post #19 of 40 Old 03-26-2010, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Geek squad was included in the package.

So, if Geek squad can not fix the ghosting, than it will be returned for my money back.

Then when 2nd Gen of 3D TVs come out (or they fix the ghosting ) I will buy one.
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post #20 of 40 Old 03-27-2010, 05:40 AM
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So there is really only one or two really bad scenes with this ghosting?

My wife and I watched the Samsung setup at "Ultimate Electronics" last night for quite a long time. I really did not catch any ghosting on it. I did experience a not so good demo at Best Buy the week before though.
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post #21 of 40 Old 03-28-2010, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I went and seen the Panasonic P50VT25 50inch 3D tv today.

Needless to say, I am going to take my Samsung 55C7000 back for a refund.
Then when the Panasonic's P54VT25 or P58VT25 or P65VT25 comes out, I will buy one of them (unless maybe sony has one that is better)
So, I am going with the Panasonic P_VT25.


I sneaked my Monsters vs Aliens 3D movie into the player and watched it on the Panasonic P50VT25. Wow


So, here is my review in a nut shell. (short sweet and simple)
The Samsung 55C7000 ; The 3D is about 75% there (thats me being nice).
The Panasonic P50VT25 ; The 3D is about 95% there (good enough for me).




I just hope that Samsung hasn't killed the 3D market. (in the bad way)

It's the 1st generation of 3D tv; there are going to be some down sides but if no-one buys any of the 1st generation then there will not be an 2nd generation, so-on.
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post #22 of 40 Old 03-28-2010, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

So there is really only one or two really bad scenes with this ghosting?

My wife and I watched the Samsung setup at "Ultimate Electronics" last night for quite a long time. I really did not catch any ghosting on it. I did experience a not so good demo at Best Buy the week before though.

I saw ghosting all over the place in the Samsung demo. In bright scenes, where I can't pick up on any ghosting with the Panasonic, I can't NOT see ghosting on the Samsung. That's in 4 or 5 different stores here in St. Louis. The only place I've seen ghosting on the Panasonic is in the spokes of the train leaving the station of the Grand Canyon.

Believe me, I want not to see ghosting on the Samsung. I really like the image on this TV, but unless different glasses or a firmware update fixes the ghosting, I would never recommend it to a friend. A person might not see it in a casual demo, but once you saw it at home, it would drive you nuts.

Just my 2 cents.

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post #23 of 40 Old 03-28-2010, 10:15 PM
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Could the ghosting possibly be from the blu ray player and not the tv? I work at best buy and was curious to see what the real time conversion looked like. The results were quite impressive, the image was quite deep and I did not notice any ghosting whatsoever when watching live action and the same monsters vs aliens scene (just so happens to be part of our loop).
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post #24 of 40 Old 03-29-2010, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuprQB17 View Post

Could the ghosting possibly be from the blu ray player and not the tv? I work at best buy and was curious to see what the real time conversion looked like. The results were quite impressive, the image was quite deep and I did not notice any ghosting whatsoever when watching live action and the same monsters vs aliens scene (just so happens to be part of our loop).

It is highly unlikely that any ghosting could be introduced by the player, since it is delivering discrete L/R images to the display. Any ghosting is being introduced by either the display or the glasses. If you saw less ghosting on "converted" 3D, it may have been the content-related. Ghosting is more evident in high contrast areas (e.g. a darkly colored object against a light background, or vice verse) with a wide parallax (distance between L/R/ objects).
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post #25 of 40 Old 03-30-2010, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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So is ghosting a Software or hardware problem.

Could they fix it by a Software update?



I have seen Four Samsung 55C7000 TVs, They all had ghosting.
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post #26 of 40 Old 03-30-2010, 07:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad SCR View Post

So is ghosting a Software or hardware problem.

Could they fix it by a Software update?

I have seen Four Samsung 55C7000 TVs, They all had ghosting.

1. It can be caused by the glasses - when the eye being blocked is not throughly blocked

2. It may be caused by the response time issue in LCD displays

3. It may be an artifact of 3D for consumers. Something to be worked out in future generations of 3DTVs.

It is very rare that 1st generation CE products are perfect.
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post #27 of 40 Old 03-30-2010, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

1. It can be caused by the glasses - when the eye being blocked is not throughly blocked

Seems like this is the most likely culprit as the ghosting can be seen on both sides of objects similar to what the tv looks like in 3D mode without the glasses.

Possible design flaw
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post #28 of 40 Old 03-30-2010, 11:03 PM
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Well, I went into Future Shop today to pick up Sherlock Holmes and I thought I'd stop and check out the Samsung 3D exhibit. IMHO, they may be able to sell this 3D technology to some at this high price, but the people who buy this expensive, bleeding edge stuff expect the best. Immediately, I noticed ghosting in the picture (some cartoon) and knew right away that it is all that I would be noticing if I ever bought the set (and not, sadly, the 3D effect). Other than the ghosting, though, I found the 3D to be subtle and not overly in-my-face. Good times are coming...but not yet.

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post #29 of 40 Old 03-30-2010, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad SCR View Post

So is ghosting a Software or hardware problem.
Could they fix it by a Software update?
I have seen Four Samsung 55C7000 TVs, They all had ghosting.

I am afraid you are out of luck. It's LCD's slow response time. Any display technology involves slow response time will have same problem, such as plasma or CRT, but to a much lesser degree.

It's not active glasses or synchronization, which have been working just fine over last 20 years. 3D visualization is not really a new technology, it's only recently display technology/TV becomes fast enough to catch up.

The best display technology is DLP FP, absolutely rock steady and no cross talk, DLP's response time is pretty much instantaneous. If you don't mind losing a bit resolution, go for a 720p DLP FP. DLP RPTV should be fine too, though I never experienced it myself.
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post #30 of 40 Old 03-31-2010, 12:56 AM
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Different eyes must see this differently. Which makes a case for the panny. I mean, I went back to the good demo and really struggled to see these issues. It was like if I look hard enough, maybe I can sort of see ghosting on it. I certainly see nothing that would have me returning the display.
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