Will all 1st Gen 3D send 60/sec to each eye and cause flicker? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I've seen both Panny and Sammy 3D TVs many times and always noticed the same kind of flickering I used to see on old 60hz computer monitors.

Apparently, they 'show' 60/sec to each eye. Plasma vs LCD has no difference in this.

I have sensitive eyes and they get easily fatigued by the 'flicker' of a low refresh rate.

Is this a limitation of how fast the active shutter glasses can cycle?

If it is, I may have to sit out 1st gen 3D until they improve the 3D refresh rate.
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post #2 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyMafia View Post

I've seen both Panny and Sammy 3D TVs many times and always noticed the same kind of flickering I used to see on old 60hz computer monitors.

Apparently, they 'show' 60/sec to each eye. Plasma vs LCD has no difference in this.

I have sensitive eyes and they get easily fatigued by the 'flicker' of a low refresh rate.

Is this a limitation of how fast the active shutter glasses can cycle?

If it is, I may have to sit out 1st gen 3D until they improve the 3D refresh rate.

Most people don't see flickering at 120 Hz (60 Hz per eye). Have you had any chance to audition 120 Hz 3D in anything other than a brightly lit store showroom? The presence of other light sources in the room often cause flickering in people's peripheral vision that is bothersome, even if the 3D content itself doesn't appear to be flickering.
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post #3 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 01:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MonkeyMafia View Post

I've seen both Panny and Sammy 3D TVs many times and always noticed the same kind of flickering I used to see on old 60hz computer monitors.

Apparently, they 'show' 60/sec to each eye. Plasma vs LCD has no difference in this.

I have sensitive eyes and they get easily fatigued by the 'flicker' of a low refresh rate.

Is this a limitation of how fast the active shutter glasses can cycle?

If it is, I may have to sit out 1st gen 3D until they improve the 3D refresh rate.

So when you walk into a freinds home who has either a 60Hz SDTV or HDTV - you see flicker?

What about when you go to the movies?
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post #4 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you had any chance to audition 120 Hz 3D in anything other than a brightly lit store showroom?

Yes, I have. I thought that could be the reason for the flicker too, but after seeing the Panny 3D setup in Magnolia where the lights are better controlled, I still saw the flickering.

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So when you walk into a friends home who has either a 60Hz SDTV or HDTV - you see flicker?

Absolutely. Or any old CRT monitor running 60hz. In the old days, before LCD monitors, I always cranked up the refresh rate of my CRT computer monitor to reduce eye fatigue and flickering. Bumping it up to 72Hz usually made it acceptable.

I used to have a 34" sampo CRT HDTV. Same thing. However, that TV had a VGA in, so when I ran my HTPC to it, I cranked up the refresh rate to 72hz which the sampo could actually handle.

However, with this 1st implementation of 3D, I am getting the same flicker. I know it's not the setup (seen multiple sammy LED c8000s - at least six of them - and even a couple of c9000s), and I know it's not LCD vs Plasma as the Panny in Magnolia exhibited the same.

Then I read that both LCD and Plasma are only showing 60 images per sec to each eye, which is the similar end result as a 60hz refresh rate.

Am I going crazy here or am I unto something? Perhaps 2nd gen 3D technology will improve on this so as to eliminate flicker and handle motion better during panning sequences.
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post #5 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MonkeyMafia View Post

Absolutely. Or any old CRT monitor running 60hz. In the old days, before LCD monitors, I always cranked up the refresh rate of my CRT computer monitor to reduce eye fatigue and flickering. Bumping it up to 72Hz usually made it acceptable.

I used to have a 34" sampo CRT HDTV. Same thing. However, that TV had a VGA in, so when I ran my HTPC to it, I cranked up the refresh rate to 72hz which the sampo could actually handle.

However, with this 1st implementation of 3D, I am getting the same flicker. I know it's not the setup (seen multiple sammy LED c8000s - at least six of them - and even a couple of c9000s), and I know it's not LCD vs Plasma as the Panny in Magnolia exhibited the same.

Then I read that both LCD and Plasma are only showing 60 images per sec to each eye, which is the similar end result as a 60hz refresh rate.

Am I going crazy here or am I unto something? Perhaps 2nd gen 3D technology will improve on this so as to eliminate flicker and handle motion better during panning sequences.

Some people are more susceptible to flicker just like some people are more susceptible to frame judder from the 2:3 pulldown.

Everyone doesn't see the same way.

Guess you will have to wait for some CEM to increase the frame rate per eye past 60 if you want to get a 3DTV.

So I guess you don't go to the movies do you - 2D film based? That would look terrible to someone like you. But you could go to a RealD 3D Cinema as they use 144Hz, 72 per eye for their 3D system.
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post #6 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, Lee, you hit it head on. Some people are more sensitive than others. Back in the day, I would walk over to a coworker's CRT computer screen set to the default 60hz refresh and wonder to myself how the hell they aren't going blind with such flickering going on. That's basically been eliminated with LCD monitors these days.

I do watch movies in theaters once in a while, but I willingly take the flicker in exchange for the huge screen size.

RealD 3D at 72 per eye sounds like a winner. I'll have to check that out in person.

Out of curiosity, is the limitation to 60/sec per eye in the ability of the active shutter glasses to switch on/off in synch with the tv? It seems quite odd how we have 240hz LCD sets that go down to 120hz in 3D mode. And for plasma, well, it's even a weirder story as the the technology itself (even with marketing gimmicks like 600hz sub field drive) is inherently flicker-free.

Thanks for the input.
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post #7 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MonkeyMafia View Post

Yes, Lee, you hit it head on. Some people are more sensitive than others. Back in the day, I would walk over to a coworker's CRT computer screen set to the default 60hz refresh and wonder to myself how the hell they aren't going blind with such flickering going on. That's basically been eliminated with LCD monitors these days.

I do watch movies in theaters once in a while, but I willingly take the flicker in exchange for the huge screen size.

RealD 3D at 72 per eye sounds like a winner. I'll have to check that out in person.

Out of curiosity, is the limitation to 60/sec per eye in the ability of the active shutter glasses to switch on/off in synch with the tv? It seems quite odd how we have 240hz LCD sets that go down to 120hz in 3D mode. And for plasma, well, it's even a weirder story as the the technology itself (even with marketing gimmicks like 600hz sub field drive) is inherently flicker-free.

Thanks for the input.

The 240hz LED LCD 3DTV's, according to two reliable sources, aren't showing 120Hz per eye. They are showing 120Hz per eye with black frames inserted every other frame dropping to frame rate per eye to 60 with 120 total. The 240Hz feature only works in 2D mode for frame judder advoidance.

That's a good question - can they go higher. the very best active shutter glasses on the market AFAIK are the RealD Crystal Eyes 3 which only work with a 120Hz refresh display:

http://www.reald.com/Content/proProd...spx?pageID=127

IMO, LCD's problem with flicker and crosstalk is being created by it's poor response time for the liquid crystals. PDP is 2000X faster in response time; 2ms versus .001ms. If the LCD is rated at 4ms - then it's 4000X slower than a PDP.
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post #8 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:41 PM
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MM,
Since the 3D plasmas refresh at 60fps per eye and the 3D LCDs at at 120fps per eye I think you need to see an LCD in a controlled lighting envirioment like you saw the plasma.
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post #9 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

MM,
Since the 3D plasmas refresh at 60fps per eye and the 3D LCDs at at 120fps per eye I think you need to see an LCD in a controlled lighting envirioment like you saw the plasma.

But are the LCDs really refreshing at 120 Hz per eye? Both Consumer Reports and HD Guru say no. They are using black frame insertion.
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post #10 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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But are the LCDs really refreshing at 120 Hz per eye? Both Consumer Reports and HD Guru say no. They are using black frame insertion.

This is my question too... CR and HD Guru do in fact mention the black frame insertion (used to synch otherwise you will have serious cross-talk). And my eyes tell me this is happening as I notice the flicker.

In fact, I do recall spending a good chunk of time in front of the C9000 LED LCD tv. This one was in the back of the store, in a light controlled area. I still saw the 'flickering'....
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post #11 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 02:50 PM
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Wow, that sucks for you. Basically you entire life, just watching normal NTSC TV, you've seen flicker?

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #12 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, that sucks for you. Basically you entire life, just watching normal NTSC TV, you've seen flicker?

No. When I watch NTSC TV on an LCD and plasma is just fine except for the crappy resolution.

But if I were to watch NTSC TV on a CRT that was refreshing at 60hz, I would start to feel the strain. Regular analog TV broadcast was in 480i, so even if the CRT TV was doing 60hz for a field rate, it would scan 240 lines each pass to fool the eye into thinking 480 lines of resolution, making it even worse (this is why computer CRT monitors were progressive to reduce eye strain).

This is the kind of strain I am feeling when watching 3D. The kind of "interlacing effect" used before by CRT technology to achieve a higher resolution given the bandwidth limitation of the set.
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post #13 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyMafia View Post

No. When I watch NTSC TV on an LCD and plasma is just fine except for the crappy resolution.

But if I were to watch NTSC TV on a CRT that was refreshing at 60hz, I would start to feel the strain. Regular analog TV broadcast was in 480i, so even if the CRT TV was doing 60hz for a field rate, it would scan 240 lines each pass to fool the eye into thinking 480 lines of resolution, making it even worse (this is why computer CRT monitors were progressive to reduce eye strain).

This is the kind of strain I am feeling when watching 3D. The kind of "interlacing effect" used before by CRT technology to achieve a higher resolution given the bandwidth limitation of the set.

That's exactly my point. Unless you're only 20 years old currently, you grew up watching TV with this flicker issue with your eyes. Like I said, that sucks.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #14 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 05:42 PM
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MM,
You are correct each eye is not refreshed 120 times per second. But the glases sync at 120HZ in order to account for the blank frame after every frame containing content.
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post #15 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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doesn't suck anymore, except when i view 1st gen 3d tvs and watch movies

wal, they'll proly improve the frame rates... not only will it get rid of that darned flicker that reminds me of old skool 60hz computer crt monitors, but it will improve motion panning sequences and minimize negative effects when viewers moves their heads
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post #16 of 20 Old 03-31-2010, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by taz291819 View Post

Wow, that sucks for you. Basically you entire life, just watching normal NTSC TV, you've seen flicker?

I have had to deal with this and yes it does suck. I remember early on getting a high end video card and being able to bump up my refresh rate to 75 hz. What a great day for me. I have not been able to see the new 3D TVs since the closest Best Buy to me is 3 hours away. I did notice as I aged I became more susceptible to it. Which was a good thing I guess since by the time it got to the point I am at now was about 25 years ago.

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post #17 of 20 Old 04-01-2010, 06:18 AM
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MM,
Are you saying you only have flicker problems today when watching a 3D BR disk being played in a 3D BR player with a a 3D TV? Or do you also have flicker when a playing a 2D movie in a standard BR player and being played on a 3D TV?
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post #18 of 20 Old 04-01-2010, 07:26 AM
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I think they are saying flat out that 60hz refresh at the display panel level sucks for them. That woudl include a ton of Bluray and Display setups in use today. That would suck.

60hz is fine for a vast majority of people. In all my I.T. years I have never had a user complain about flicker at 60hz.
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post #19 of 20 Old 04-01-2010, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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MM,
Are you saying you only have flicker problems today when watching a 3D BR disk being played in a 3D BR player with a a 3D TV? Or do you also have flicker when a playing a 2D movie in a standard BR player and being played on a 3D TV?

The flicker comes into play when I watch 3D with the active shutter glass on.

I think I will have to pass on 1st Gen 3D.

Already, there were sets shown at CES 2010 with 1-2 yr horizon that does 3D w/o glasses (sammy, intel, tcl, etc.). 3D w/o glasses is proly the point I'll join in.

But even better is this- 3D w/o glasses + head tracking!!! Won't work for regular programming, but for 3D computer rendered environments (think when they shot the "scene" for the Matrix), this would be the holy grail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-e...layer_embedded

This is the first video clip I've seen where you can actually tell that there is 3D going in the video clip itself!
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post #20 of 20 Old 04-01-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

I think they are saying flat out that 60hz refresh at the display panel level sucks for them. That woudl include a ton of Bluray and Display setups in use today. That would suck.

60hz is fine for a vast majority of people. In all my I.T. years I have never had a user complain about flicker at 60hz.

Me neither. The only time I noticed flicker was when I went to London the first time and saw 50hz. Even now I somtimes watch an old NTSC TV and it looks fine at 60hz. I think something else is going on here.
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