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post #1 of 57 Old 04-23-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/23/hd-101-3d-faq/
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post #2 of 57 Old 04-23-2010, 12:25 PM
 
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How will 24p 3D be displayed on a 240hz HDTV?

Quote:


Sony 3DTVs display 24p 3D at 120hz per eye, so each frame will be shown 5 times. Panasonic 3DTVs will display 24p 3D at 96hz per eye, so each frame will be shown 3 times.

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post #3 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 06:53 AM
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A lot of the content of the Engaget is true but the quote from it provided by Lee in the post above has no truth to it at all. I especially the fact in it that 3x24 is now equal to 96 instead of to 72.
Lighting, I sugest that you review the sticky threads in these 3D content forums for more accurate infromation.
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post #4 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

A lot of the content of the Engaget is true but the quote from it provided by Lee in the post above has no truth to it at all. I especially the fact in it that 3x24 is now equal to 96 instead of to 72.
Lighting, I sugest that you review the sticky threads in these 3D content forums for more accurate infromation.

You are right, I wrote 3 when I meant to write 4 on that one item, but that doesn't mean "has no truth at all."

I stand by the rest of it as either fact or information passed on to my by the manufacturers that can't be independently verified yet.

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post #5 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 07:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

You are right, I wrote 3 when I meant to write 4 on that one item, but that doesn't mean "has no truth at all."

I stand by the rest of it as either fact or information passed on to my by the manufacturers that can't be independently verified yet.

AFAIK, the Panasonic 3DTV is designed to operate at 120Hz (60 per eye) in 3D mode and the 96Hz is for 2D to avoid judder on 24P content.

48Hz per eye is going to flicker.
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post #6 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 09:08 AM
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A Panasonic Plasma 3D TV has a maximum refresh rate of 120Hz so it certainly can not display each eye of 24fps 3D content at 96HZ because that would require a 192HZ refresh rate. If you have a 120Hz 3D plasma TV there is no reason to only run it in 96Hz mode when receiving 2D 24fps content when you can leave it at 120Hz and display each 2D 24fps frame 5 times instead of four. I haven't seen the Panasonic 3D TV user's manual so am not even sure it has a 96HZ mode like some of their 2D Plasmas TVs have. The Samsung 120Hz 3D Plasmas do not have a 96Hz mode.
AFAIK the Sony 240HZ 3D LCD TVs work just likie the Samsung's and use blank frame insertion to after each frame in order to eliminae motion bluring caused by an LCD TV's Smooth and Hold characteristic, see the following link:

http://hdguru.com/samsungs-3d-un55c8...t-review/1440/

Plasma 3D TVs don't have 240Hz refresh rates because they naturally have blank screen content after each frame.
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post #7 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 09:42 AM
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The manual isn't out and no one has verified this, but a Panasonic engineer told me via email that "all 24p 3D material can be shown at 48 60 or 96hz per eye."

Now obviously you and Gary Merson are contradicting this, but until I know for sure one way or another, you'll have to forgive me if I choose to believe the person who works on Panasonic TVs for a living.

As for the Sony comments, I had a meeting with representatives from Sony at CES and they told me that each frame is shown 5 times per eye. I've received misinformation from official sources before, so I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just saying that I have no reason to believe otherwise at this point. It would make sense that the rep didn't want to go into the blank frames explanation on the show floor, but saying it is 120hz per eye is still correct, blank frames or not.

I have not been briefed at all on the Samsung's, which is why I didn't mention it.

Like I told Gary via email, I sure hope you guys are wrong about the Panasonics as I'd thought we'd put 3:2 pull down behind us.

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post #8 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 11:59 AM
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Yes, with blank frames 120Hz per eye is correct if you state that it is receiving 1 real frame with and then one blank frame before it switches to the other eye.
3:2 pull down is not an issue since each frame of 24ps content is being displayed at least 5 times per second and the Human mind is indigrating the images from both eyes whose content is actually being split between the 2 eyes.
I have always found Gary's data to be correct or to state that some of his data is unconfirmed. And if wrong he has rapidly issued a correction.
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post #9 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 12:26 PM
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I've seen the Panasonic 50" display several times. There is a 96hz mode while in 3D, which I watched for a while. However, I believe it is 2x24 fps for each eye (96 fps total, not 120). I say this because the flicker at 96hz was quite noticeable and distracting. I couldn't watch for long without discomfort. There's no flicker that I could detect at 120 fps. According to my math, judder is still with us, even with the plasma display. I'd rather see a display rate of 144 fps (3x24 = 72 fps per eye, or 3:3 pulldown) for judder free movies. 120fps could be maintained for video sourced material.

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post #10 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 01:40 PM
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Yes Gary usually has great sources but anytime new technology comes along there tends to be lots of confusion and even reliable sources can make mistakes.

I do wonder now about Panasonic's 3D, 96hz total seems too slow for four frames, but I guess you might have to decide between the flicker of 96hz or the judder of 120hz. And yes 72hz for 2D works great, I enjoy it all the time on my Kuro. Not sure why Panasonic doesn't playback 24p 3D material at 144hz.

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post #11 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 01:59 PM
 
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BTW Ben - the Panasonic manuals (PDFs) for their 3DTV and 3D BD player are available on line through their Service Dept WWW link.

The 3D BD link is in my BUYERS GUIDE for 3D BD Players sticky in the 3D Source Forum. You will have to do a little searching for the 3DTV link but it is here at 3D Central - probably somewhere in the 3D Display Forum
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post #12 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 03:53 PM
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Apparently it is much harder to increase the frame rate of plasma TVs than it is to increase the frame rate of LCD TVs and the Plasma TV manufacturers had no reason to to it since the Plasma TVs do not have the motion blur problems that LCD TVs have with Smooth&hold screen images.
Joseph Clarks's above post states that a Panasonic 3D plasma can display 3D content at either 48 or 96 FPS for each eye and that the results are not satisfactory.
I agree with JC that mathematically 60FPS display of 24fps content on 3D TVs may appears to be not possible without frame rate Judder. However, just like human mind and eye interpolated the interlaced CRT content which was created by displaying the odd lines and even lines separatly that with 3D HDTV the human mind and eye corrects for the fact that all 5 frames of 24 fps content are not displayed by the same eye.
On the 3D TVs when receiving 24 fps content and displaying 60fps for each eye the first frame will be displayed to the left eye 3 times and to the right eye 2 times. And the second frame will be displayed to the right eyes and to the left eye twice.
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post #13 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Apparently it is much harder to increase the frame rate of plasma TVs than it is to increase the frame rate of LCD TVs and the Plasma TV manufacturers had no reason to to it since the Plasma TVs do not have the motion blur problems that LCD TVs have with Smooth&hold screen images.
Joseph Clarks's above post states that a Panasonic 3D plasma can display 3D content at either 48 or 96 FPS for each eye and that the results are not satisfactory.
I agree with JC that mathematically 60FPS display of 24fps content on 3D TVs may appears to be not possible without frame rate Judder. However, just like human mind and eye interpolated the interlaced CRT content which was created by displaying the odd lines and even lines separatly that with 3D HDTV the human mind and eye corrects for the fact that all 5 frames of 24 fps content are not displayed by the same eye.
On the 3D TVs when receiving 24 fps content and displaying 60fps for each eye the first frame will be displayed to the left eye 3 times and to the right eye 2 times. And the second frame will be displayed to the right eyes and to the left eye twice.

The problem right now is that we simply don't have much source material for evaluation - and no 3D test discs. I like the Panasonic so much that I think I could live with the judder, but my first impression when I talked the manager of a Best Buy into letting me check out Monsters vs Aliens on the Panasonic was that there was something a little off with the motion. It seemed smoother to me on the Samsung LCD. Now that we know that the Samsung also does a max of 120 actual frames per second (60 per eye), there has to be judder in that display, too. I don't know if Samsung and Panasonic deal with 3:2 pulldown in different ways, or if my initial impression was simply wrong, or if it subsequent viewings were affected by different settings (like anti-blur). We need some test discs for 3D content. That's the only way we'll know for sure what's going on.

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post #14 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 05:01 PM
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The Panasonic Plasma 3D TV just like the Samsung Plasma 3D TV has only a 120Hz display so it also does 60Hz per eye. I still submit that you were not seing frame rate Judder but were seing LCD smooth and hold motion bluring on the Samsung or you were seing 24fps frame rate Judder on both the LCD and the Plasma.
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post #15 of 57 Old 04-24-2010, 07:52 PM
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You could be right. As I said, we need test discs to find out for sure.

The one thing I'm pretty certain about is that I won't be able to resist buying a 3D display for too long - whether or not we have all these issues sorted out through testing. As always, though, I'll rely on my own eyes to figure out what 3D display to buy, no matter what reviews I read.

I've now watched Avatar in 2D on my projector, and just as I thought, it was a far superior experience at home (in all ways except 3D) than it was in even the best commercial theater where I saw it. (And I saw it four times in 3 different 3D cinemas.) I believe it will look jaw-droppingly beautiful on the Panasonic 3D plasma. There are, however, several scenes where I doubt I'll have too much trouble telling if 3:2 judder is an issue for me with any given 3D display. It should be especially easy in some of the high tech lab scenes on Pandora, and in the bay with all the AMP suits.

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post #16 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 05:35 AM
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My real fear with the judder is that the current 3D technology already struggles a lot with motion. I just can't imagine having to deal with the blur and judder. I guess it is all academic until we have a chance to test it out at home, but I know I was very impressed with the demos I saw at the Panasonic booth at CES -- much more so than the Best Buy demo because of the variety of demo material.

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post #17 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 07:07 AM
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As discussed in the following link one indication of 3:2 pulldown Judder is if the Film credits do not move smoothly down the screen. The linked article even though old is still an execllent one about different causes of problems with TV displays. The section on 3:2 Judder is about 2/3 of the way through the article.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/TempRate.mspx

So at a store 3D demo of either an LCD or as Plasma 3D TV a good Judder test could be to observe the smothness of the credits at the end of the 3D BR film.
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post #18 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 10:21 AM
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Unfortunately the Panasonic demos use a special disc, and not a full movie. Not sure if there is any material on the disc that would expose judder. And the Samsung demo uses Monsters vs Aliens, but doesn't do 3:2 pull down.

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post #19 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 11:02 AM
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I noted some incorrect information in the Engadget article.

First: The frame compatible format (1080i side-by--side) has 1/2 horzontal resolution for the right and left images (the article says its still full resolution). The display does horizontally stretch (or scale) each the right/left images by a factor of two to restore the correct aspect ratio, but this cannot restore resolution that's missing in the input signal from the cable TV or satellite box. Of the mandatory 3D formats defined by HDMI 1.4a, only the Framing Packing format (as used by Blu-ray 3D) provides full resolution HD.

Second: The statement of the Panasonic plasmas display each the right and left video streams at 96 Hz (i.e., per eye) is imply incorrect. These plasmas give the user the option of displaying the total (right plus left) video at either 96Hz (48 Hz per eye using 2:2 pulldown for 24 Hz. source material) or 120Hz (60 Hz per eye using 2:3 pulldown for 24 Hz source material). I don't know for certain if their statement about the Sony LCD 3DTVs displaying 120 Hz per eye is correct or not (since production Sony 3DTVs are still 2 months away from being available to consumers). But Sony is probably going the same route at Samsung by using a 240 Hz display panel and inserting black frames between each actual image frame resulting in only 60 Hz per eye actually being displayed and using 2:3 pulldown for 24 Hz source material. Since Sony uses LCD panels manufactured by Samsung I suspect they are using the same approach in an attempt to reduce crosstalk (ghosting) between the right and left images.

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post #20 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 11:49 AM
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Ben,
The Samsung player works with the Panasonic TV and the real MvA film disk from Samsung will play in the Panasonic player.

Ron,
I do not believe that any of Samsung or Panasonic units use 3:2 pulldown for each eye. I believe that since each frame is displayed 5 times each second when the content seen by the user with both eyes is viewed that 3:2 pulldown is not required..
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post #21 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

First: The frame compatible format (1080i side-by--side) has 1/2 horzontal resolution for the right and left images (the article says its still full resolution).

Many take issue with this point, but I'll argue my point again.
A frame compatible format 3D image is 960x1080 per eye 30 times per second, that is 62,208,000 pixels per second.
A 2D 1080i signal is 1920x1080 30 times per second, that is 62,208,000 pixels per second.

And since 62,208,000 is exactly equal to 62,208,000 it isn't half, it is exactly equal. The same number of pixels are used and the same number of pixels reach the brain.

Now I'm not trying to say that 3D Blu-ray isn't twice as good, not at all. I'm just trying to say that it isn't a reduction in the amount of information.

Furthermore I've seen the demos and am very particular and was not left with the feeling that detail was sacrificed for a third dimension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Second: The statement of the Panasonic plasmas display each the right and left video streams at 96 Hz (i.e., per eye) is imply incorrect. These plasmas give the user the option of displaying the total (right plus left) video at either 96Hz (48 Hz per eye using 2:2 pulldown for 24 Hz. source material) or 120Hz (60 Hz per eye using 2:3 pulldown for 24 Hz source material).

May I ask your source? Mine is a Panasonic engineer who works on TVs for a living. I'm not saying mine is infallible, just wondering why you are so confident he is incorrect. He says you can play 24p 3D content at either 48hz, 60 or 96hz. Now why would Panasonic give you the choice to watch in 48hz total when it would most certainly be flicker city?

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post #22 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 04:03 PM
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The 2 1080p frame packed buffer format@ 24fps from a new 3D BR player playing a new 3D BR disk supplies 2x1920x1080x24pixels of content each second which = 99,532,800 pixels of content per second.
A 1080i/60 SBS 3D signal has 2x960x1080x30 pixels of content per second which as you stated is 62,208,000 pixels of content per second.
When each of these have their frame rate increased to 60fps for each eye. The content from the 3D BR disk is displaying 99,532,800/24*60 pixels of original filmed content or 248,832,000 pixels of origional filmed content per second and the 1080i SBS sourced image is providing only 124,416,000 pixels of original fiilmed content per second which is exactly 1/2 of the origional filmed resolution.
The 3D TV upcales the 124,416,000 from the 1080i SBS source to 248,832,000 required for the display by Inventing the content of the additional 124,416,000 pixels required.
I think the Panasonice Engineer failed to qualify his statement to you by stating that he was referring to content from a 24fps 3D content at different frame rates if it is sent to the TV in 2D instead format of in 3D format.
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post #23 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Now I'm not trying to say that 3D Blu-ray isn't twice as good, not at all. I'm just trying to say that it isn't a reduction in the amount of information.

Since information (as you say it should be measured) remains the same while the picture quality is reduced by two times, doesn't that just show that your information measure is not relevant to judging picture quality? So, why are you telling us about it?

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post #24 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I think the Panasonice Engineer failed to qualify his statement to you by stating that he was referring to content from a 24fps 3D content at different frame rates if it is sent to the TV in 2D instead format of in 3D format.

Here is exactly what he said to me via email. "all 24p 3D material can be shown at 48 60 or 96hz per eye."

In addition I emailed him again today and he still stands by that the new Panasonic Plasmas can display 24p content at 96hz per eye, but said he would do some more research tomorrow in light of the dispute with others in the industry.

The guy isn't Japanese so it isn't like he's the guy who actually designed the TV.

I also downloaded the manual and it is not helpful. It states "96Hz/48Hz: Achieves more cinematic playback by reproducing the movie contents at 2 or 4 times the speed of 24 frames per second. If flicker is seen using 48Hz, please use 60Hz or 96Hz. (96Hz/60Hz/48Hz)" There is no mention of this on page 24 with the rest of the 3D information.

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post #25 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Since information (as you say it should be measured) remains the same while the picture quality is reduced by two times, doesn't that just show that your information measure is not relevant to judging picture quality? So, why are you telling us about it?


My point is that this is like arguing that a glass is half empty, or half full. We are both technically correct, it is just a difference in perspective.

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post #26 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 05:51 PM
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Yes it makes total sense to be able to display 2D 24fps content at 96fps to eliminate 3:2 frame rate Judder.
But the response you got from him today you state the he said;
"
In addition I emailed him again today and he still stands by that the new Panasonic Plasmas can display 24p content at 96hz per eye,
"
and this response says nothing about 3D 24 fps content.
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post #27 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 07:14 PM
 
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If the Panny 3DTV's could display 3D at 96Hz per eye - that would make the total of the panel 192Hz which is absurd.

It would be either 120Hz for 60 Hz per eye or at the very best, 144Hz for 72Hz per eye
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post #28 of 57 Old 04-25-2010, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

My point is that this is like arguing that a glass is half empty, or half full. We are both technically correct, it is just a difference in perspective.

That article is wrong. Broadcast 2D at 1080i has 4 times the resolution of SbS 720p 3D and 2 times SbS 1080i 3D. Makes broadcast 3D a no go in my book at 720p maybe at 1080i.

BTW, the Samsung plasmas do 600fps. Hows that for discussion material?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

That article is wrong. Broadcast 2D at 1080i has 4 times the resolution of SbS 720p 3D and 2 times SbS 1080i 3D. Makes broadcast 3D a no go in my book at 720p maybe at 1080i.

BTW, the Samsung plasmas do 600fps. Hows that for discussion material?

That the subfield drive rating.
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post #30 of 57 Old 04-26-2010, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

A frame compatible format 3D image is 960x1080 per eye 30 times per second, that is 62,208,000 pixels per second.
A 2D 1080i signal is 1920x1080 30 times per second, that is 62,208,000 pixels per second.

And since 62,208,000 is exactly equal to 62,208,000 it isn't half, it is exactly equal. The same number of pixels are used and the same number of pixels reach the brain.

The problem is that the pixels of the 2D format are available to both eyes, while the pixels of the 3D format are shared by the two eyes, with each eye seeing only the left or right half of the frame. So the resoultion per eye is half.

Your reasoning only shows that the two formats have the same bandwitdh (BTW the badwidht of both formats is 74,25MHz), that is the reason why SbS Half is compatible with 2D broadcast infrastructures and STBs. But the 3D format carries two images in the bandwidth of one.

As for Panasonic 96Hz for 3D, I agree with Lee that this would mean a 96x2 = 192Hz total refresh frequency. If a plasma supported such a a frequency, the marketing would have told us in a very clear and evident manner. I don't even know if 144Hz is possible in plasma, at the moment.
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