Support for 3D 1080p @ 60 and 30 frames per second? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 05-05-2010, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking to purchase a 3D plasma, likely a Samsung 63c8000 or Panasonic 65vt25 this summer in time for the World Cup (3D). I've gleaned that 3D bluray discs will only require a 3D TV which can display 1080p @ 24 frames per second per eye, with the display refreshing more frequently, for smooth video. I've also learned that the initial offerings from cable, satallite, fiber TV providers will likely display at 720p (not sure the fps) per eye. I believe these formats will easily be handled by "3D ready" device currently or soon to be on the market.

What about hardware capable of displaying a 1080p image for each eye at 30 and 60 frames per second? Will this first generation of TVs and audio video receivers support these standards? I'm DEEPLY concerned about spending 3-4 thousand dollars on a television and another thousand on a nice 3D ready receiver, if they lack support for these formats.

I've read about NVIDIA's upcoming 3D coversion software for PC games. I would hope, so long as my hardware is capable and I'm willing to dial in the graphics options in games, that this solution would be able to output 1080p at 30 fps for each eye. If the hardware isn't quite up to the task today for a full 60 fps, I'm sure it will be in another year. Likewise, I believe that the next generation of game consoles will also be capable of producing good quality graphics in these formats.

Have any of the TV or receiver manufacturers discussed their plans for these formats? Are they targeted as required formats for a future HDMI standard?

Any gamers out there with similar concerns about spending money this summer on hardware without guarantees that they can game in 1080p 3D at 30 and 60 fps?
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post #2 of 73 Old 05-05-2010, 09:41 PM
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1080p60 Frame Packing video (full resolution 1080p60 per eye 3D video) requires 297 MHz of bandwidth (based on the bandwidth chart in the HDMI 1.4a 3D specification). The fastest HDMI chips I have seen are capable of 225 MHz so as far as I know there aren't any HDMI chips announced yet that would support it. As for 1080p30 Frame Packing based on the required bandwidth I think that it would be supported by current HDMI 1.4a chips but that is just a guess.


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Originally Posted by stinster View Post

Have any of the TV or receiver manufacturers discussed their plans for these formats?

Companies usually will not draw attention to a feature that their new products don't support so it is unlikely you will hear any of them talk about 1080p60 Frame Packing video until they start releasing products that support it.
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post #3 of 73 Old 05-05-2010, 11:44 PM
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I just discovered this fact today, and I'm very concerned about this. After seeing the Panasonic in person, and seeing it's 3D abilities, I was very excited about the possibility of getting the 50 inch Panasonic once the price drops to $1999.99. But now, after hearing how I would be limited to a mere 720p resolution if I want to game at 60 frames per second, I've reconsidered my stance on buying one of these new 3D tv's. It just doesn't make any sense to drop over 2 grand on a new TV that can't do the full 1080p 3D for games as well. Sure, it will be able to do Blu Ray movies at 24fps, but games need 60fps.
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post #4 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 12:39 AM
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You also have to consider the viewing distance as well. After all, as it increases, the difference becomes less obvious to negligible.

Also, scaling H/V by 1.5 is not that complex.
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post #5 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 02:42 AM
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30 fps would not be adequate for games. The motion would not be smooth and it would be choppy. As far as 720p resolution for games, thats primarily what PS3 games are. They look fine as is and I don't think it would be a diminishing as far as 3d. I think they will look quite good actually.

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post #6 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 04:39 AM
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Frame rate depends on screen-nav method. For an example, 30p is perfect for pan based navigation (e.g. via analogue sticks found on gamepads), which is why most (console games) are ~30p. However, it’s too low for mouse based nav.
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post #7 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 07:52 AM
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Yes, unfortunately this generation of 3DTVs doesn't support 1080p60 per eye input, but either does Blu-ray. Some believe we'll have 1080p60 per eye broadcasts in the next 24 to 36 months, but for right now there isn't any content anyways.

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post #8 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 08:24 AM
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Stinster,
ESPN-3D will broadcast it's first World Cup game on June 10th. So far only Direct
TV has announced that they will offer it. It is expected that some US cable TV providers and that Dish will also offer it but there have been no anouncemeents yet that they will.
It appears that ESPN-3D will broadcast in 720p format using side by side 640x720 squezed frames. The new 3D capable TVs will upscale this input to full 1080p frames and display them 120 fps resulting in 60 3D fps.
For information about what receivers are curently capable of passing through the HDMI 1.3 720p SBS 3D content from a cable or satellite digital tuner box to a 3D TV see the HDMI 1.4 receiver thread.
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post #9 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 09:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Stinster,
ESPN-3D will broadcast it's first World Cup game on June 10th. So far only Direct
TV has announced that they will offer it. It is expected that some US cable TV providers and that Dish will also offer it but there have been no anouncemeents yet that they will.
It appears that ESPN-3D will broadcast in 720p format using side by side 640x720 squezed frames. The new 3D capable TVs will upscale this input to full 1080p frames and display them 120 fps resulting in 60 3D fps.
For information about what receivers are curently capable of passing through the HDMI 1.3 720p SBS 3D content from a cable or satellite digital tuner box to a 3D TV see the HDMI 1.4 receiver thread.

How did you come to that conclusion? ESPN was involved in the production of The Masters in 3D. They used SbS 1080i for that broadcast.
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post #10 of 73 Old 05-06-2010, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel802 View Post

As far as 720p resolution for games, thats primarily what PS3 games are. They look fine as is and I don't think it would be a diminishing as far as 3d. I think they will look quite good actually.

Well, certainly the current consoles aren't capable of 1080p@60Hz to each eye. We have to settle for 720p. The PC is capable now however. Also, a replacement for the Xbox 360 could arrive as early as November 2012, which is only 2 years away. I would bet my bottom dollar that the next Xbox will be fully capable of 1080P@60Hz to each eye, and if you want to enjoy that, you're going to need a TV that isn't currently available right now. Just seems kinda foolish to sink over 2 grand into a TV that will be outdated in a mere 2 years.
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post #11 of 73 Old 05-07-2010, 02:23 AM
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MS somewhat hinted that the next gen console won't be out until 3D sets are accepted. So it may take longer than 2012.

Also, 1080p60 x 2 requires a lot of processing power and most console games rendered in 30p due to the pan-scan method. So my guess is that S3D games on the X3 are likely to be rendered in either 720p120 or 1080p60.
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post #12 of 73 Old 05-07-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

How did you come to that conclusion? ESPN was involved in the production of The Masters in 3D. They used SbS 1080i for that broadcast.

See:

http://blogs.pcmag.com/miller/2010/0...pping_poin.php
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post #13 of 73 Old 05-07-2010, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

How did you come to that conclusion? ESPN was involved in the production of The Masters in 3D. They used SbS 1080i for that broadcast.

Just because ESPN was involved in CBS's broadcast doesn't mean ESPN will go 1080i sbs.

I have my money on 720p SbS, which I think will look just fine. The real problem with the World Cup is it will be captured at 1080i50, and 1080i50 to 1080i60 conversions don't look that great, so adding 3D might make it really bad.

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post #14 of 73 Old 05-08-2010, 05:44 PM
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I am a pc gamer- and i am disappointed that the new 3dtv's cannot do 1080p 3d gaming. My PC has had more than enough power to do this for a few years now. The TV manufacturers dont get my money this time. I guess i have to stick with the Mits DLP checkerboard 1080p 3d tv's for now.

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post #15 of 73 Old 05-08-2010, 06:23 PM
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The Samsung 3D TVs can accept the same 1/2 1080p resolution checkerboard format that the DLP TVs now do.
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post #16 of 73 Old 05-08-2010, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies, specifically the comment on the limitations of current HDMI bandwidth. That is really disappointing, as it leads me to believe that current 1.4a spec hardware will not be upgradable to support 1080p/60.

Bummer is all I can say... feels like electronics manufacturers are holding out to be able to market NEW 3D hardware that meets this spec in a year or two... and get some early adopters to pay twice for what should have been a mandatory spec from day one.
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post #17 of 73 Old 05-09-2010, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

The Samsung 3D TVs can accept the same 1/2 1080p resolution checkerboard format that the DLP TVs now do.

Well, yeah, but the old DLP's can be had for a song on Craigslist. Unlike these brand new ones that they are trying to get 3 grand for. It's one thing to pay $600 for a used DLP that can do Checkerboard, and it's another thing entirely to pay nearly 3 grand for a 50 inch 3D plasma that can't do 60 frame 1080p to each eye.
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post #18 of 73 Old 05-09-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stinster View Post

Thanks for the replies, specifically the comment on the limitations of current HDMI bandwidth. That is really disappointing, as it leads me to believe that current 1.4a spec hardware will not be upgradable to support 1080p/60.

Bummer is all I can say... feels like electronics manufacturers are holding out to be able to market NEW 3D hardware that meets this spec in a year or two... and get some early adopters to pay twice for what should have been a mandatory spec from day one.

All this have happened before

remember early flat panels with only component and single-link DVI? Then we had DVI with HDCP and eventually HDMI
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post #19 of 73 Old 05-10-2010, 09:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

Well, yeah, but the old DLP's can be had for a song on Craigslist. Unlike these brand new ones that they are trying to get 3 grand for. It's one thing to pay $600 for a used DLP that can do Checkerboard, and it's another thing entirely to pay nearly 3 grand for a 50 inch 3D plasma that can't do 60 frame 1080p to each eye.

Why the concern? Is there any 1080x120P 3D content available? Will there be any in the near future?

If and when "broadcast" goes from SbS 1080i Half HD to Frame Sequential 1080P Full HD - the current 3DTVs will be able to handle that.
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post #20 of 73 Old 05-10-2010, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Why the concern? Is there any 1080x120P 3D content available? Will there be any in the near future?

If and when "broadcast" goes from SbS 1080i Half HD to Frame Sequential 1080P Full HD - the current 3DTVs will be able to handle that.

PC games, and possibly Playstation 4 and Xbox 3, once those consoles are released. The next Xbox is expected in November of 2012. PS4 might not hit until 2013 or maybe even 2014. Still, for a gamer, it makes no sense whatsoever to sink 2, 3 or 4 grand on a 3dtv that can't handle the full 1080p at 60 frames to each eye. The only way it would make sense, is if the guy just had money to burn, and was going to use it as a temporary stopgap option until he could get one that truly does the full hd at 60 frames to each eye. If you're a non-gamer, then you could care less, but I'm sure alot of gamers might end up getting one of these TV's, and not realize until later that they will either have to play their games at 720p (if they want 60 frames to each eye), or settle for a measly 30 frames per second if they want 1080p to each eye. In the world of gaming, 60 frames per second is ideal.
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post #21 of 73 Old 05-10-2010, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

PC games, and possibly Playstation 4 and Xbox 3, once those consoles are released. The next Xbox is expected in November of 2012. PS4 might not hit until 2013 or maybe even 2014. Still, for a gamer, it makes no sense whatsoever to sink 2, 3 or 4 grand on a 3dtv that can't handle the full 1080p at 60 frames to each eye. The only way it would make sense, is if the guy just had money to burn, and was going to use it as a temporary stopgap option until he could get one that truly does the full hd at 60 frames to each eye. If you're a non-gamer, then you could care less, but I'm sure alot of gamers might end up getting one of these TV's, and not realize until later that they will either have to play their games at 720p (if they want 60 frames to each eye), or settle for a measly 30 frames per second if they want 1080p to each eye. In the world of gaming, 60 frames per second is ideal.

very true- check out nvidias 3d forums- there are lots of pissed 3d gamers....the PC hardware can handle it but the tv's are not up to the task yet. we are advising pc gamers sit out this round of 3d tv's or go dlp...

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post #22 of 73 Old 05-11-2010, 08:42 AM
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I have not yet read of any planned update to the HDMI specs to have any 1080p per eye full frame content from other then the current Frame Packing 1080p24 format and I don't think any 3D HDTV manufacturer will not define and support any 1080p/60 per eye format on their own.
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post #23 of 73 Old 05-11-2010, 05:58 PM
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I'm one of those angry PC owners. This comes off to me as a lazy half assed version of the HDMI standard. Make new chips that support 1080p 60hz. They must have had alot of leftover hdmi 1.3 chips that they just software upgraded to make them 1.4. Just how Samsungs tvs came out as 1.3 and now with the new firmware they are 1.4a. I can't believe that I can get 1080p 60hz from a freaking DVI connection and not with HDMI. Now Im stuck playing games on a POS 24" for another year!!
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post #24 of 73 Old 05-11-2010, 06:54 PM
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You misunderstand, There is no way you can change a HDMI 1.3 Hardware chip into a hardware 1.4 hardware chip just like you cannot a change a three speed car transmission car transmission into a 4 speed with software.
The current HDMI specs do not support 1080p/60 per eye 3D content over HDMI. That does not mean that is not possible. However, it does mean that no CEM will make both a propriatary provider source and a corresponding propriatary 3DTV.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

The current HDMI specs do not support 1080p/60 per eye 3D content over HDMI.

1080p60 Frame Packing is listed in both the HDMI 1.4 3D specification and the HDMI 1.4a 3D specification. The only thing that is needed is for HDMI 1.4a chips to be made that have a bandwidth of at least 297 MHz.
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post #26 of 73 Old 05-12-2010, 08:20 AM
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The copy of the 1.4a spec that I have in Table 8-15 "3D transmission video formats" lists 1080p/24, 720p/24 and 720p/60 packed formats, 1080p/60 is not listed.
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If 3D BD uses approx 50% more storage then regular 1080x24P BD, what would the storage requirements be for 1080x60P 3D?
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post #28 of 73 Old 05-12-2010, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

The copy of the 1.4a spec that I have in Table 8-15 "3D transmission video formats" lists 1080p/24, 720p/24 and 720p/60 packed formats, 1080p/60 is not listed.

Those are the mandatory formats for 3D TVs. Any of the 64 CEA-861 video formats can be used in "FramePacking", as long as the hardware supports those frequencies. This would be especially difficult for 1080p120, which in 3D and 12 bit DeepColor would require a 891 MHz TMDS clock.

But back to the limitation: The TMDS clock limit is not a thing of the HDMI specification or the version number, but rather of the hardware design. Even some of the upcoming HDMI 1.4 chips still have the 225 MHz TMDS clock limit.
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post #29 of 73 Old 05-12-2010, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

The copy of the 1.4a spec that I have in Table 8-15 "3D transmission video formats" lists 1080p/24, 720p/24 and 720p/60 packed formats, 1080p/60 is not listed.

1080p60 Frame Packing is listed in the "Secondary 3D Video Format Timings" section.
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post #30 of 73 Old 05-12-2010, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

1080p60 Frame Packing is listed in the "Secondary 3D Video Format Timings" section.

The only ones I see in that section are 1080p/60 1/2 resolution side by side or 1/2 resolution Top and Bottom format. Instead of the full resolution packed buffer formats listed in Table 8-15.
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