The 3D via a HDMI 1.3 AV-Receiver Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 250 Old 06-14-2010, 08:38 AM
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So I just got my 3d tv yesterday, and I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to view ESPN3D (once ATT Uverse figures out how to add it to my account). I currently go from my STB to Onkyo AVR via HDMI and then AVR->TV via HDMI.

Do I have to run HDMI from the STB directly to the tv? If so why since I doubt very seriously that the HDMI out on the STB is 1.4. And the STB doesn't output 1080p.

Do I only have to bypass my AVR for 3D Blu Ray? Will I have to bypass if I wait for the PS3 firmware update (isn't it only HDMI 1.3?).

Thanks!

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post #32 of 250 Old 06-14-2010, 10:30 AM
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If you see the two squished side-by-side images, then just enable the manual "side-by-side" 3D mode in your TV's menu.

I'm not sure if the u-verse boxes do any VSDB/VSI signalling. If so, then connecting the box directly to your TV (without the A/V-Receiver inbetween) might automatically enable the 3D feature in your TV, and you don't have to switch manually.

If the box complains about the absence of a 3D TV while connecting through the AVR, then you might have to connect the TV directly.
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post #33 of 250 Old 06-14-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

If you see the two squished side-by-side images, then just enable the manual "side-by-side" 3D mode in your TV's menu.

I'm not sure if the u-verse boxes do any VSDB/VSI signalling. If so, then connecting the box directly to your TV (without the A/V-Receiver inbetween) might automatically enable the 3D feature in your TV, and you don't have to switch manually.

If the box complains about the absence of a 3D TV while connecting through the AVR, then you might have to connect the TV directly.

Setting the TV to Side-by-Side worked like a charm through the AVR. Until there is more 3d content available, I'll just do this manually.

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post #34 of 250 Old 06-14-2010, 03:36 PM
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Glad that you are happy with that solution.

Please note that this will only work with the "frame compatible" broadcasts in side-by-side and top-and-bottom formats. As soon as you try to push 3D Blu-ray content or Playstation 3D gaming in the "frame packing" format through your receiver, this trick will no longer work, and you will need a receiver that is aware of HDMI 1.4 3D formats.
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post #35 of 250 Old 06-14-2010, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

Glad that you are happy with that solution.

Please note that this will only work with the "frame compatible" broadcasts in side-by-side and top-and-bottom formats. As soon as you try to push 3D Blu-ray content or Playstation 3D gaming in the "frame packing" format through your receiver, this trick will no longer work, and you will need a receiver that is aware of HDMI 1.4 3D formats.

Yea, until more 3d TV station come along with different formats I'll stick to this solution with the STB. Once the PS3 gets the firmware update or if I decide to get a standalone 3D Bluray player, I'll probably just go optical for audio and forgo the HD audio.

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post #36 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 12:00 AM
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Or you could buy a dual HDMI output 3D BD player, like the Panasonic DMP-BDT350, connecting the HDMI 1.4 output to the display and the HDMI 1.3 one to the receiver.
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post #37 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

Or you could buy a dual HDMI output 3D BD player, like the Panasonic DMP-BDT350, connecting the HDMI 1.4 output to the display and the HDMI 1.3 one to the receiver.

Yes, but that would still prevent the auto-enabling of the side-by-side 3D from the U-Verse box. If they even implement such a feature at some point.

browerjs, did you have a chance to connect the U-Verse directly to your TV and tune to ESPN 3D? Did the TV switch to 3D mode automatically?
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post #38 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

Or you could buy a dual HDMI output 3D BD player, like the Panasonic DMP-BDT350, connecting the HDMI 1.4 output to the display and the HDMI 1.3 one to the receiver.

Yes, but at this point I'm not really worried about the HD sound as the 3D tv is my secondary Blu-Ray viewing display (120" FP first). Although knowing me I'll probably cave and get that Panny 350 once the PS3 takes too long to get the firmware update out

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post #39 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

Yes, but that would still prevent the auto-enabling of the side-by-side 3D from the U-Verse box. If they even implement such a feature at some point.

browerjs, did you have a chance to connect the U-Verse directly to your TV and tune to ESPN 3D? Did the TV switch to 3D mode automatically?

No I didn't. I'll try to find some time to do it tonight. The way I have to route my cables and get behind the TV and components (inside a contained entertainment center) isn't the easiest.

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post #40 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

Yes, but that would still prevent the auto-enabling of the side-by-side 3D from the U-Verse box. If they even implement such a feature at some point.

browerjs, did you have a chance to connect the U-Verse directly to your TV and tune to ESPN 3D? Did the TV switch to 3D mode automatically?

No I didn't. I'll try to find some time to do it tonight. The way I have to route my cables and get behind the TV and components (inside a contained entertainment center) isn't the easiest.

Just got done trying the direct route, and it didn't automatically detect it as side-by-side. I'm guessing they aren't sending some sort of flag, but I'm not sure. Any ideas?

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post #41 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

Just got done trying the direct route, and it didn't automatically detect it as side-by-side. I'm guessing they aren't sending some sort of flag, but I'm not sure. Any ideas?

Thanks for trying. I did not really expect this to work, since I know what companies are behind the middleware of those boxes, and I have a rough idea how long their specification, testing, and evaluation schedules are delaying any new features. HDMI 1.4a is just too new. At least, when you eventually have that feature, it will be well tested.
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post #42 of 250 Old 06-15-2010, 03:31 PM
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Browerjs.
The user manual for the Samsung 3D TVs implies that if you have the TV set to 3D mode that it will automatically switch for some of the 1/2 formats if received. For others you have to tell it what 3D format you are sending to it.
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post #43 of 250 Old 06-16-2010, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

Thanks for trying. I did not really expect this to work, since I know what companies are behind the middleware of those boxes, and I have a rough idea how long their specification, testing, and evaluation schedules are delaying any new features. HDMI 1.4a is just too new. At least, when you eventually have that feature, it will be well tested.

So you think this is definately a ATT misconfiguration? One other thing I want to try is see if the auto-switching will work during actual programming. I only tried the direct connection with the Off air programming (the epsn3d slide). I will play back the dvr recording of the game today and see if it works.

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post #44 of 250 Old 06-16-2010, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

So you think this is definately a ATT misconfiguration? One other thing I want to try is see if the auto-switching will work during actual programming. I only tried the direct connection with the Off air programming (the epsn3d slide). I will play back the dvr recording of the game today and see if it works.

Good, let us know how that works.

I don't know if I would call that a "misconfiguration". The 3D auto switching for side-by-side/top-and-bottom is more of a convenience feature, which saves you to have to go into the TV's menu and enable 3D yourself. I would consider it optional, from a technical standpoint.

That's why I do not understand that DirecTV apparently made this mandatory in their box, to be able to play back 3D.
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post #45 of 250 Old 06-16-2010, 08:49 AM
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AFAIK the DirecTV box uses the EDID data from the TV to determine the make/model number of the 3D TV and if it is not on their list it will not output to it and how the box is configured to receive 3D is not considered. See the requirement section of the following link:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/hd/3d
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post #46 of 250 Old 06-16-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

AFAIK the DirecTV box uses the EDID data from the TV to determine the make/model number of the 3D TV and if it is not on their list it will not output to it and how the box is configured to receive 3D is not considered. See the requirement section of the following link:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/hd/3d

But why would the DirecTV box output cause the TV to auto-switch to 3d. There must be some kind of flag/parameter that's sent that tells the TV what it's sending. This is what I'm guessing UVerse isn't sending along.

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post #47 of 250 Old 06-16-2010, 03:07 PM
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This was all discussed in one of the 3D tech threads months ago. HDMI has even released the 3D spec publicly, so you can take a look for yourself.

There is a so called "Vendor Specific Data Block", or VSDB, belonging to the HDMI LLC. inside the TV's EDID. This data block can be used to signal support for one or more 3D formats. The source device reads this EDID and decides whether to send 3D or not to the TV. If it sends 3D, then it tags the video with a so called "Vendor Specific InfoFrame", or VSI, again belonging to HDMI LLC. This tells the TV which 3D format the source is sending out.

HDMI 1.3 AVRs do not know about either of the two, and discard VSDBs when replicating the TV's EDID at their inputs, and don't pass the player's VSI to the TV.
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post #48 of 250 Old 06-17-2010, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

This was all discussed in one of the 3D tech threads months ago. HDMI has even released the 3D spec publicly, so you can take a look for yourself.

There is a so called "Vendor Specific Data Block", or VSDB, belonging to the HDMI LLC. inside the TV's EDID. This data block can be used to signal support for one or more 3D formats. The source device reads this EDID and decides whether to send 3D or not to the TV. If it sends 3D, then it tags the video with a so called "Vendor Specific InfoFrame", or VSI, again belonging to HDMI LLC. This tells the TV which 3D format the source is sending out.

HDMI 1.3 AVRs do not know about either of the two, and discard VSDBs when replicating the TV's EDID at their inputs, and don't pass the player's VSI to the TV.

Thanks for the info. I emailed tier 2 support at U-Verse about the auto-switching and received the following:

This is XXXXX with U-Verse Tier II Technical Support. We want to thank you for e-mailing the U-Verse Care Social Media Support Group, where our goal is to resolve your issue as soon as possible. We are excited that you are already experiencing the new cutting edge 3D technology. You are absolutely correct by stating that this technology is very, very new and we are in the very earliest of stages with it. Therefore, it follows that the technology is not everything that it will soon become.

As you've discovered already, at this time it is necessary to manually change your television set to 3D mode when viewing 3D programming. It is also necessary to manually return to 2D mode. We are confident that as this technology evolves and progresses the manual toggling between 3D and 2D will become automatic.

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post #49 of 250 Old 06-17-2010, 06:16 AM
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I don't know what the all the fuss is about automatic this and that. Do you want the glasses to be automatically put on your face too?
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post #50 of 250 Old 06-17-2010, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by obveron View Post

I don't know what the all the fuss is about automatic this and that. Do you want the glasses to be automatically put on your face too?

If you are channel surfing you want to have to switch the 3d mode every time you change a channel?

It's not really a problem now, because there is only one channel, but as more channels come online it will be an issue, especially if broadcasters don't all use the same format.

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post #51 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

If you are channel surfing you want to have to switch the 3d mode every time you change a channel?

It's not really a problem now, because there is only one channel, but as more channels come online it will be an issue, especially if broadcasters don't all use the same format.

I believe when a surfer sees that a program is offered on the 3D channel, they won't mind switching to 3D manually. "Honey, switch the TV mode to 3D, while I try to find those 3D goggles the kids had yesterday." I doubt very much that the glasses will be constantly hanging from a cord on their neck.

It's the future though, so who knows. Read some back issues of Popular Science from the '60s and '70s to see what I mean about predictions.

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post #52 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

Will I have to bypass if I wait for the PS3 firmware update (isn't it only HDMI 1.3?).
Thanks!

I wonder how this update is going to work. Will they magically update the PS3 from HDMI 1.3 to HDMI 1.4? Is this even possible?
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post #53 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

I believe when a surfer sees that a program is offered on the 3D channel, they won't mind switching to 3D manually. "Honey, switch the TV mode to 3D, while I try to find those 3D goggles the kids had yesterday." I doubt very much that the glasses will be constantly hanging from a cord on their neck.

It's the future though, so who knows. Read some back issues of Popular Science from the '60s and '70s to see what I mean about predictions.

I don't disagree with that, which is why I made the comment that it's not a huge deal because there is only 1 channel now. As you get multiple 3D channels in multiple formats, it becomes an issue.

Viewers will probably decide to watch 2D or 3D in a session, and not go between the two.

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post #54 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 09:47 AM
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Would it be possible to use a HDMI detective between a PS3 and your AVR, to get the PS3 to send the 3D signal to the AVR, even if it doesn't see it as being compliant?

I have yet to try running the PS3 directly into my AVR to see if it will work with my VT20, but I'm pretty sure it won't work. However, I was thinking that If I put a Geffen HDMI detective in-between the two devices, it might work? My AVR is a Marantz SR7001, which I really enjoy and have no plans to upgrade (downgrade is more like it) to another AVR just for 3D compatibility. If a HDMI detective would do the trick, then I could probably live with that.
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post #55 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

Would it be possible to use a HDMI detective between a PS3 and your AVR, to get the PS3 to send the 3D signal to the AVR, even if it doesn't see it as being compliant?

I have yet to try running the PS3 directly into my AVR to see if it will work with my VT20, but I'm pretty sure it won't work. However, I was thinking that If I put a Gefen HDMI detective in-between the two devices, it might work? My AVR is a Marantz SR7001, which I really enjoy and have no plans to upgrade (downgrade is more like it) to another AVR just for 3D compatibility. If a HDMI detective would do the trick, then I could probably live with that.

Yeah, the issue seems to be that even if the Geffen HDMI Detective forces the signal to the (HDMI 1.3) AVR, will the AVR be able to:
1. pass it on to the TV?
2. pluck the audio stream from the signal?

scarabaeus, can you help out here?

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post #56 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

scarabaeus, can you help out here?

I can try...

It most likely will not work. The HDMI Detective only replicates the 3D TV's EDID towards the player. The playstation will be compelled to set rame packing 720p or 1080p on it's HDMI output, but the AVR does not know what to do with such a video timing and will croak. Also, you will lose all the extra audio capabilities of the AVR.

Here's a normal 2D case:

Code:
+--------+        +--------+          +--------+
| Player |        |   AVR  |          |   TV   |
|        |        |        |  DDC     |        |
|        |        |  merge<------------EDID    |
|        |  DDC   |      | |          |        |
| select<----------EDID<-+ |          |        |
| mode   |        |        |          |        |
| |      | Video  |        |          |        |
| +---------------->extract|          |        |
|        |        | audio| |          |        |
|        |        | |    | |          |        |
|        |        | |    V |          |        |
|        |        | |scale |  Video   |        |
|        |        | |video-------------> show  |
|        |        | |      |          | image  |
|        |        | V      |          |        |
|        |        |speaker |          |        |
+--------+        +--------+          +--------+
This means, the AVR reads the TV's EDID, merges the TV's video capabilities with the AVR's audio capabilities, and presents a new EDID to the player. The player reads that merged EDID and selects video and audio modes based on the capabilities.

The player then sends the video to the AVR, where the audio is extracted from the blanking area of the video, and the video is sent to the TV (after maybe some scaling, if needed).

The video is accompanied by some AVI InfoFrames, which tell the AVR, and the TV, what is what about the video signal.

Now, for 3D, the TV's EDID contains some additional data blocks, the "VSDB"s. This tells a source that the TV understands 3D modes on its input. The AVR needs to know about these VSDB, and pick those 3D modes it supports on its own input. Then it has to include the new, merged VSDBs in the merged EDID it presents to the player.

The player, when it understands the VSDBs from the AVR, will select a 3D mode that is matching the source material, and that is supported by the capabilities conveyed by the VSDBs. It will set up this mode on the output towards the AVR, and send some VSIs alongside the AVI InfoFrames to tell the AVR what 3D format it sends.

The AVR now has to pass through the 3D video to the TV, and also send the matching VSIs with it, so that the TV knows which 3D format it receives. The TV can then switch into 3D mode and display the incoming video.

By just replicating the TV's EDID and inserting that instead of the merged AVR EDID, you can trick the player into sending 3D video with VSIs, but the AVR would not know what to do with the video signal, how to extract audio from that video signal, how to pass it on to the TV, or how to pass on the VSIs.
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post #57 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 03:58 PM
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PS3 3D passthrough on most HDMI 1.3 receivers will not work.

Another member posted in another thread about it working with his receiver. It is possible it will work but it is extremely unlikely.
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post #58 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 05:33 PM
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Somebody needs to make a splitter device, where you plug the hdmi output of the PS3 into a small box, and on that box it has two outputs. One output carries the hdmi audio to the AVR, and the other output carries the hdmi video to the TV. If they can come up with a device like this for $149.99 or less, I'd buy it, cause it would be worth it not to even consider getting a new receiver.
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post #59 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

I can try......[snip]

Thanks.

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post #60 of 250 Old 06-18-2010, 07:47 PM
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Funny that you'd ask, as I was researching this very thing today. Cables Unlimited makes a series of splitters, one of which is two HDMI to one display. It's 19.99 at Frys (now that's my kind of price!). Unfortunately, as of now, it did not split my signal between the projector and the Onkyo AVR. All HDMI switches work (even for 3D and HD audio), but this one freaks out as soon as I plug in the second display (projector). I only got it today, and haven't spent much time. There are no power connections or buttons to push, so unless a powering on sequence solves it, this didn't work.

My perfect scenario is video out to PJ (or TV), and audio out to receiver. This way I get the full HD audio. Right now, I have the HTPC connected with the optical from the mobo. I'd like to have the full gamut.

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