LCD and Plasma technology: it's imperfections detailed. Test pattern included. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 10-23-2010, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banduraj View Post

Just to be clear. How do I use these to test for ghosting?

There's the words left eye, Right Eye, Black and White with a pointer pointing at the black or white color.

Close one eye, and with the open eye look at the black and white colors and compare them agains the ire steps next to them. The ire closest to the color your seeing is the amount of crosstalk your tv has.

I made another test pattern, moving pixels, side by side format. And it is from the top to the bottom of the screen like icester requested.

It's only is 1920, 1080 16:9 resolution though, but it's got both squished and non-squished versions.


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post #32 of 50 Old 10-23-2010, 08:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

There's the words left eye, Right Eye, Black and White with a pointer pointing at the black or white color.

Close one eye, and with the open eye look at the black and white colors and compare them agains the ire steps next to them. The ire closest to the color your seeing is the amount of crosstalk your tv has.

I made another test pattern, moving pixels, side by side format. And it is from the top to the bottom of the screen like icester requested.

It's only is 1920, 1080 16:9 resolution though, but it's got both squished and non-squished versions.

Thank you for your effort.

I finally got my first 3D HD 60p frame sequential video done and result has incredible performance.
I will now offer a low cost product: LC shutter glasses which operate on all 2D BluRay Players 2DMonitirs and 2D TVs on all 60p HD modes that are supported.
The video format requires special type encoding techniques but it uses the standard HD codecs.
Comparing to time parallel layouts it requires 2 times more storage. All frames must be upsampled to 60Hz rate
and frame phase sync is embedded in audio track. This way one can even use the shutter glasses on 2D portable media players.

Mathew Orman

http://www.*******************-usa.com/
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post #33 of 50 Old 10-23-2010, 10:06 AM
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Ok. So these tests will, in fact, require glasses.
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post #34 of 50 Old 10-23-2010, 11:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banduraj View Post

Ok. So these tests will, in fact, require glasses.

Yes,

unfortunately it is not possible for home user to determine whether that ghosting is due to display or shutter glasses. The professional test for display would be to use high speed camera that have at lest a 1000 frames per second or mechanical shutter/chopper wheel synchronized to
video rate and phase locked.


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post #35 of 50 Old 10-24-2010, 03:36 AM
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Quote:


and frame phase sync is embedded in audio track.

-shaped dithering would work to embed that into the last LSB ( "noisefloor" ) , I have a bit of knowledge about this . But compressed sound is not bitperfect anymore, there goes our dither ...
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/...d/default.aspx

otherwise, stuff like this is available

Mr. Orman can you please pm me some link of that light engine we talked about.
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post #36 of 50 Old 10-24-2010, 04:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I updated the test patterns again. Pattern 1, the one icester linked to, you need to use the galsses, but pattern 2 you don't need the glasses just a dslr camera at a fast enough shutter speed you can see the pattern, you don't need glasses for pattern 2.

Pattern 2 is 30 white bars for the 30fps source, 30fps per eye.
The 30 bars light up one at a time so all 30 bars have lit up in one second, 30fps.
I also have one with 24 bars and all 24 bars light up in one second, 24fps per eye.

It is zero parallax, so only one bar should be lit up at any one time.
It's possible to measure a box and wait for the bar to lightit up and see if the white is larger than the box, but the pattern is fast and this might bother your eyes if you watch it too long.

The moving bars are the full height of both 1080 and 720.

This is the avs code I used:

Code:
loadplugin("C:\\Program Files\\AviSynth 2.5\\plugins\\DirectShowSource.dll")

left=directshowsource("C:\\Users\\GreenEyz\\Desktop\\30 seconds of 30p.avi", audio=false, 29.970).crop(0, 0, -35, 0).addborders(0, 0, 70, 0)
right=directshowsource("C:\\Users\\GreenEyz\\Desktop\\30 seconds of 30p.avi", audio=false, 29.970).crop(35, 0, 0, 0)

return stackhorizontal(left, right).converttoyv12()
The source this was used on was a 30 second 30p avi. The entire design for pattern 2 was drawn in MS paint.


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post #37 of 50 Old 10-24-2010, 08:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

I updated the test patterns again. Pattern 1, the one icester linked to, you need to use the galsses, but pattern 2 you don't need the glasses just a dslr camera at a fast enough shutter speed you can see the pattern, you don't need glasses for pattern 2.

Pattern 2 is 30 white bars for the 30fps source, 30fps per eye.
The 30 bars light up one at a time so all 30 bars have lit up in one second, 30fps.
I also have one with 24 bars and all 24 bars light up in one second, 24fps per eye.

It is zero parallax, so only one bar should be lit up at any one time.
It's possible to measure a box and wait for the bar to lightit up and see if the white is larger than the box, but the pattern is fast and this might bother your eyes if you watch it too long.

The moving bars are the full height of both 1080 and 720.

This is the avs code I used:

Code:
loadplugin("C:\\Program Files\\AviSynth 2.5\\plugins\\DirectShowSource.dll")

left=directshowsource("C:\\Users\\GreenEyz\\Desktop\\30 seconds of 30p.avi", audio=false, 29.970).crop(0, 0, -35, 0).addborders(0, 0, 70, 0)
right=directshowsource("C:\\Users\\GreenEyz\\Desktop\\30 seconds of 30p.avi", audio=false, 29.970).crop(35, 0, 0, 0)

return stackhorizontal(left, right).converttoyv12()
The source this was used on was a 30 second 30p avi. The entire design for pattern 2 was drawn in MS paint.

Please not that some players will not play it if there is no audio. Also make the versions that match popular monitor speeds.
The 30 or 24 Hz are not used on desktop monitors nor TVs.
Try 60.00 Hz, 50.00 Hz and the near aliases.
To see real ghosting the video frame rate must be the same as monitor's refresh rate.


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post #38 of 50 Old 10-24-2010, 08:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gain3 View Post

-shaped dithering would work to embed that into the last LSB ( "noisefloor" ) , I have a bit of knowledge about this . But compressed sound is not bitperfect anymore, there goes our dither ...
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/...d/default.aspx

otherwise, stuff like this is available

Mr. Orman can you please pm me some link of that light engine we talked about.

Here you are:
http://www.microvision.com/technology/index.html

In my LC shutter driver design I use left audio channel dongle and mute it routing the right channel to left output
so one only get the mono sound performance.
The most advanced version would be to use audio high frequencies near the spectrum limit and simply apply low pass filter on the dongle output.

As is, LC shutters do not need battery and are driven using headphone output power. All electronics use simple passive devices. This must be the lowest cost stereoscopic
display system that is compatible with all 2D HD TVs, projectors and monitors as well as DVD and BD players.

Mathew Orman
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post #39 of 50 Old 10-24-2010, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Please not that some players will not play it if there is no audio. Also make the versions that match popular monitor speeds.
The 30 or 24 Hz are not used on desktop monitors nor TVs.
Try 60.00 Hz, 50.00 Hz and the near aliases.
To see real ghosting the video frame rate must be the same as monitor's refresh rate.


Mathew Orman

I made three new test patterns, linked to in the first post. At these frame rates per eye: 50, 59.940, 60.


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post #40 of 50 Old 10-26-2010, 07:39 PM
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I tested these newest ones on my Samsung. They failed to play due to an unsupported resolution.
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post #41 of 50 Old 10-26-2010, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The link to the test patterns is updated and Pattern 3 is now squished, so both frames are in a single 1280, 720 frame. Now that it's squished it should play fine in the Samsung TV. Please post to tell us your results.

I want to test the pattern 3 on a Panasonic Plasma but I'm shy to go into a store and bother the person I know there to get the glasses out, set up the dvd player that's in use and go through all that ordeal just so I can look and I have no intention of buying.
So maybe somebody with a Panasonic 3D TV can use pattern 3 and tell us your results here. heh heh.


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post #42 of 50 Old 10-28-2010, 05:50 AM
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Ok. These patterns work. All play with no problem.
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post #43 of 50 Old 10-28-2010, 12:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

The link to the test patterns is updated and Pattern 3 is now squished, so both frames are in a single 1280, 720 frame. Now that it's squished it should play fine in the Samsung TV. Please post to tell us your results.

I want to test the pattern 3 on a Panasonic Plasma but I'm shy to go into a store and bother the person I know there to get the glasses out, set up the dvd player that's in use and go through all that ordeal just so I can look and I have no intention of buying.
So maybe somebody with a Panasonic 3D TV can use pattern 3 and tell us your results here. heh heh.

All works at my end too.
Great job! Thank you.

Mathew Orman
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post #44 of 50 Old 10-29-2010, 04:51 AM
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sticky

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #45 of 50 Old 11-13-2010, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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The first post was updated: lcd section. Problems two and three were added.


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post #46 of 50 Old 11-14-2010, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

No need for dithering when parallel. Also, Sharp is already implemented wider (actually thicker or richer) color spectrum using RGBY four component pixel architecture. Still only at 60 Hz.

Mathew Orman

The RGBY technology from Sharp is more gimmick than ground-breaking. If you consider broadcast engineering standards, there is no Y in the RGB setup including the CCD architecture of all broadcast cameras. This CCD tech is why we have component cables. It was a broadcast standard and still is in some parts of the country, but no yellow. The RGB signal creates the other colors including yellow. In a nutshell, all you get on the quattron when yellow appears, is RGB processing the color yellow, and a 4th Y pixel making the color yellow synthetically (and very innaccuratly if youve ever seen one of the sets.) The TV industry is becoming what the razor industry has been for a decade. "My razor has 4 blades" "Oh yeah, mine has 5 and vibrates"
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post #47 of 50 Old 11-15-2010, 02:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hyjinx30 View Post

The RGBY technology from Sharp is more gimmick than ground-breaking. If you consider broadcast engineering standards, there is no Y in the RGB setup including the CCD architecture of all broadcast cameras. This CCD tech is why we have component cables. It was a broadcast standard and still is in some parts of the country, but no yellow. The RGB signal creates the other colors including yellow. In a nutshell, all you get on the quattron when yellow appears, is RGB processing the color yellow, and a 4th Y pixel making the color yellow synthetically (and very innaccuratly if youve ever seen one of the sets.) The TV industry is becoming what the razor industry has been for a decade. "My razor has 4 blades" "Oh yeah, mine has 5 and vibrates"

Normally, yes there it seems there is no advantage since no Y channel is provided at the input of such TV. But since all LCD TV interpolate color by dithering it helps to have an additional parallel color channel in action. The DLPs now also use more than 3 color filters.
In any event the Sharp's AQUOS looks more yellow or warm than the RGB only LCDs. Not that it has anything to do with true color realistic natural color pallet display.

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post #48 of 50 Old 12-06-2010, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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This next test pattern is 1080p, 16:9, side by side left side first, 1 minute long.

To use these to test for ghosting/crosstalk. Wear the glasses and watch the videos in 3D on your TV.
Then, close one eye and see if the video is showing two images of the same pattern.
A double image would look like a rectangle rather than a square.

NTSC

High Contrast version.
High Brightness version.

PAL

High Contrast version.
High Brightness version.


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post #49 of 50 Old 12-21-2010, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

You can confirm it by playing a movie that has side by side configuration and contains left image with text "left image" and right image with text "right image".

By pausing the movie you can look through your DLP-Link shutters glasses with right eye closed and see if the image says "left eye" Then do the pay /pause sequence several times and see if you always get "left image" text when your right eye is closed...

Mathew Orman

Link to quote.

Link to test files
16:9 aspect ratio, Side by Side Left side first, 1080p resolution - squished

Also these test files are good to test for ghosting.

While playing the test files close one eye and see if the text is doubled.
Ghosting is visible if "Right Image" and "Left Image" text is being shown at the same time with one eye closed.
You wear your 3d active polarized or passive polarized glasses for this test.


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post #50 of 50 Old 01-22-2011, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I updated the Plasma section in the first post.


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