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post #31 of 75 Old 11-23-2010, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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and since where on topic, anyone know which slides to use on the break in of a vt25? is the break in even needed, just though one of you experts may know. Or is this a myth.
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post #32 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 12:33 AM
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juliendude, don't be afraid to try the monster cable out in that test I mentioned. Then you will know for yourself and not wonder if you did the right thing or not.
If these people would buy their own hdmi capture and test 20 or 30 feet cable and sending 1080p images to the hdmi capture then see the results themselves then it would be fact, but they just use common sense and belief they are right, not scientific test to validate that belief.
You can buy the hdmi capture from a company called blackmagic. Just output a HD image to the hdmi capture and test two hdmi cables and see if the image is the same size in KB or MB.

Here is that hdmi capture.


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post #33 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post
Just output a HD image to the hdmi capture and test two hdmi cables and see if the image is the same size in KB or MB.
After that speech your "scientific" test is to see if the imagine is the same size?
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post #34 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 11:54 AM
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The raw truth with no condescension:

As long as the cable can deliver at least 10.2 Gbit/s there will be no data loss.
If a low quality cable claimed it could meet this requirement, but in reality couldn't, it would result in issues of the video and or stream breaking up, stuttering, or no stream at all. However at no point would the picture look degraded, or "not as good as it could be", if it works the picture will look perfect.

Yes, longer cables need heavier gauge in order to keep the minimum 10.2gbit/s per second. You don't need more bandwidth to go longer distance. You would need a heavier cable to be capable of the minimum bandwidth.
If a 5 foot cable is rated for 10.2gbps, and a 20 foot cable is rated 10.2gbps Then they both are good enough. The 20 foot cable would be heavier in order to accomodate the attenuation over distance. All cables sold, even the cheapest, SHOULD be capable at what ever length they are sold.


Now as for the "high end" cables that provide numbers like 17.8Gpbs. They are of absolutely no benefit. The current HDMI standards make no use of such extra bandwidth.
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post #35 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

After that speech your "scientific" test is to see if the imagine is the same size?

Step 1.) Install the SW Ilinked to.

Step 2.) Make a text file using MS Notepad, and copy and paste the code below into it. Then change the file extension from .txt to .avs.

Step 3.) Set Media Player Classic to use ffdshow raw video filter. Options ->External filters->Add filters->ffdshow raw video filter
You may not need step 3, if your source has two different pictures of the same thing but different quality. But I use ffdshow here to make one picture different than the other, for comparison purposes.

Step 4.) Open the video in media player classic. Go to a frame, pause, then from file, choose 'save image' and it takes a snapshot of a frame. Do this three times.
The first two pictures are of the same frame, and call them 1 and 2 in the order you took them.
Then open the other video or change ffdshow and then since this video has different quality then the first two, it can be compared. Go to the frame you took for the first two snapshots, then pause, then save a screen snapshot and call it 3.
Save the images as bmp.

step 5.) Now it gets a bit complicated. Make 3 folders, one for each of the three pictures you took.

Copy picture 1 and paste it twice in folder 1 - in this folder you will name them 1 and 2. So picture one is called 1, and picture 2 is called 2.
Do this for folder 2, but this time copy picture 2.
Then do this for folder three, but this time copy and paste picture 3.

So if you did it right, each of the three folders has two pictures: 1, 2.

step 6.) Now assuming you have java on your PC, you open bmptoavi. You use bmptoavi to join the two pictures and make them a avi. You then open the named avi's using virtualdub via the script below. Doing this shows you the differences in the pictures.

Making the first avi - Source.avi

Open bmpseq.jar
Go to Action, start. Go to folder 1, and choose 1.
Go to Action, end. Go to folder 1, and choose 2.
Go to Action, frame rate, and set it to 2, so you type in '2'.
Go to Action, save, and name the file "source.avi", no quotes, type the avi extension or it will create a junk file.
Go to Action, run. It will make the source.avi to yor desktop.

Making the second avi - picture 1.avi

Open bmpseq.jar
Go to Action, start. Go to folder 2, and choose 1.
Go to Action, end. Go to folder 2, and choose 2.
Go to Action, frame rate, and set it to 2, so you type in '2'.
Go to Action, save, and name the file "picture 1.avi", no quotes, type the avi extension or it will create a junk file.
Go to Action, run. It will make the picture 1.avi to yor desktop.

Making the third avi - picture 1.avi

Open bmpseq.jar
Go to Action, start. Go to folder 3, and choose 1.
Go to Action, end. Go to folder 3, and choose 2.
Go to Action, frame rate, and set it to 2, so you type in '2'.
Go to Action, save, and name the file "picture 2.avi", no quotes, type the avi extension or it will create a junk file.
Go to Action, run. It will make the picture 2.avi to yor desktop.

Step 7.) Now I assume you have a avs file that points to the location you avi files are on your desktop. It will be a different location than C:\\Users\\Jeremy\\Desktop\\. Right click the files on your desktop to get their location and change the location in the script.

Open virtualdub, Video->check "Direct Stream Copy", and Then from file choose Open, go the the avs script and open that and fingers crossed it opens the file so you can see the differences between the two pictrues.
Don't open the avs file without first checking Direct stream Copy.
___________________________________

The script that actually shows the changes.

Code:
clip1=aviSource("C:\\Users\\Jeremy\\Desktop\\Source.avi")
clip2=AVISource("C:\\Users\\Jeremy\\Desktop\\Picture 1.avi").Subtitle("No luma mask")
clip3=AVISource("C:\\Users\\Jeremy\\Desktop\\Picture 2.avi").Subtitle("Luma mask")
clip4=Blankclip(clip1)
# --- special purpose clips below, for comparison ---
clip5 = SUBTRACT(clip1, clip2).LEVELS(107,1,149,0,255)
clip6 = SUBTRACT(clip1, clip3).LEVELS(107,1,149,0,255)
clip7 = SUBTRACT(clip2, clip3).LEVELS(107,1,149,0,255)

desc_clip1 = "Source"
desc_clip2 = "Picture 1"
desc_clip3 = "Picture 2"
desc_clip4 = "Difference between clip 2 and 3"
desc_clip5 = "Difference Source - Picture 1"
desc_clip6 = "Difference Source - Picture 2"
desc_clip7 = "Difference Source - Difference between clip 2 and 3"

# The two lines below will usually call clips 1-2-3-4, but 1-5-6-7 may be inserted 
#    to see [amplified] mathematical difference between clips 
# To put it another way, these are the four clips we want to display
vertclip1 = STACKVERTICAL(clip1.SUBTITLE(desc_clip1), clip5.SUBTITLE(desc_clip5))
vertclip2 = STACKVERTICAL(clip6.SUBTITLE(desc_clip6), clip7.SUBTITLE(desc_clip7))

STACKHORIZONTAL(vertclip1,vertclip2)

avisynth
virtualdub
bmptoavi
media player classic
FFDshow
haali media splitter

Ok. There you go.



In this image the source is left as it was taken by MPC, Different Source -Picture 1 is processed and remains totally grey, meaning there is no difference between different source - picture 1 and the Source.
different source - Picture 2 shows a image and this is where it is different from the source.
Different source - Difference between clips 2 and 3 shows the difference between different source - picture 1, and different source - picture 2.


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This is a moral of the bears and their cereal.
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post #36 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 02:40 PM
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that is one seriously flawed and over complicated procedure. Your doing half a dozen conversions some of which aren't guaranteed to be deterministic.

"convert a bmp to and avi"

you realize that avi is a container, what codec is used? is it lossless? if not is it deterministic? (probably not).

Why don't you just take a raw frame dump of the exact same frame with 2 different cables, dump it in matlab and do a bitwise compare on them? I don't get the need for all the conversion, not to mention that it pollutes your results.

Its pretty hard to introduce bit errors in HDMI if all parts are compliment. There is a 8bit ECC transmitted at the end of each video packet to detect bit errors.
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post #37 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

There is a 8bit ECC transmitted at the end of each video packet to detect bit errors.

The ECC is only on the data island, not the video. The only way of detecting an error in the video is for the change to result in an invalid code (which is about half of all possible codes). Even then, there is no way to reconstruct the original code. So you get sparkles, or worse.
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post #38 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 04:32 PM
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I edited my previous post. the source is 24 bit bmp, the virtualdub is direct stream copy, so lossless.

Different source picture 1 and 2 is compared to Source.
There is no difference if the picture is completely grey
So, even after processing to find differences, 'different source - picture 1' is completely grey (both source and different source - picture one are the same) so, the processing done to find differences did not create a difference.

The test to find differences is therefore conclusive, with no error.


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This is a moral of the bears and their cereal.
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post #39 of 75 Old 11-24-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

juliendude, don't be afraid to try the monster cable out in that test I mentioned. ... You can buy the hdmi capture from a company called blackmagic. Just output a HD image to the hdmi capture and test two hdmi cables and see if the image is the same size in KB or MB.

Here is that hdmi capture.

Seems just a little extravagant to spend $200 on a box to see whether a $140 cable is better than a $40 cable
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post #40 of 75 Old 11-25-2010, 09:56 AM
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fast story my friend fell for the monster hdmi cables and i told him that i have monoprice cables he said they where bad so i took 2 pic one i said here are the monoprice
he said wow the pic is bad a week later i took a pic again and i said i got the monster
hdmis he said the pic was better.. then i called him a dope it was the same cable
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post #41 of 75 Old 12-01-2010, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin-Dawson View Post

These types of threads make my day.

Mine too! These Monster cable fanboys are so stupid. I bet the OP believes Monster Ethernet cable will give you faster internet and their USB cables will print out "brighter, more colorful pictures" ! LOL!
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post #42 of 75 Old 12-01-2010, 02:42 PM
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But how many naysayers will buy the monster cable at say 40 feet and do the hdmi capture test I wrote about before, so the advise that 'Monster cable is too much for what it does' is a technically true saying.

Somebody pony up and buy the cables and the hdmi capture and sit down and do the test. Come on now. Or else don't say your right about Monster Cable for lengths of 30 to 40 feet.


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This is a moral of the bears and their cereal.
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post #43 of 75 Old 12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
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I do have the Blackmagic card and a 25ft monoprice HDMI cable ($23) that provides totally flawless captures. I have no need for any longer cables so I'm not prepared to shell out $200+ just to prove you wrong. Sorry.
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post #44 of 75 Old 12-04-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjroddy View Post

I do have the Blackmagic card and a 25ft monoprice HDMI cable ($23) that provides totally flawless captures. I have no need for any longer cables so I'm not prepared to shell out $200+ just to prove you wrong. Sorry.

8:13 has been spreading Monster Propaganda/FUD for quite a while. It's good for a quick chuckle but nothing worth wasting money on.

Was in Best Buy earlier today and overheard some idiot customer who was shocked he could get an HDMI cable for this new Blu-ray player for "only" $40.00.
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post #45 of 75 Old 12-05-2010, 01:01 PM
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great discussion! i was just asking about monster on another forum.thanks guys...about to place an order from monoprice.
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post #46 of 75 Old 12-06-2010, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osirus23 View Post

Was in Best Buy earlier today and overheard some idiot customer who was shocked he could get an HDMI cable for this new Blu-ray player for "only" $40.00.

Let me guess - after that, the salesperson led him right on over to the Bose section, right?
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post #47 of 75 Old 12-06-2010, 10:12 AM
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Monster cables had more "gray area" to work with and come up with marketing gimmicks to fool customers and fatten its profit margins.

That was back in the analog days.

Now, the "gray area" has been somewhat destroyed by digital data transmission.

So now, Monster has doubled-down on focusing on consumer "confusion" to steal their money (after all, HDMI with all its variants is more confusing than its analog predecessors).
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post #48 of 75 Old 12-06-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:


let me guess - after that, the salesperson led him right on over to the bose section, right?

lol!
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post #49 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:03 AM
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The kid at Best Buy insisted I get the Monster 1000s at $120 for an 8 ft cable run. Now I feel like I got ripped and will be ridiculed by the AVS community. I'm such a moron!
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post #50 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooptonydog View Post

The kid at Best Buy insisted I get the Monster 1000s at $120 for an 8 ft cable run. Now I feel like I got ripped and will be ridiculed by the AVS community. I'm such a moron!

Did you get the 4 year extended warranty on the cable?

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post #51 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:08 AM
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Monster warranties their cables for life - or so I was told.


What about the Rocket Fish cables ? They are a little cheaper.


If I overpaid by 20 to 30 bucks I won't feel so bad - I figure you need the best hookup possible from blu ray to HDTV.
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post #52 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooptonydog View Post

Monster warranties their cables for life - or so I was told.


What about the Rocket Fish cables ? They are a little cheaper.


If I overpaid by 20 to 30 bucks I won't feel so bad - I figure you need the best hookup possible from blu ray to HDTV.

I was joking, as BB pushes warranty plans harder than anything.

Monoprice is highly recommended in the forums. A 10 ft cable is $4.23 with a lifetime warranty. Is a Monster worth $115 more?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/se...ble+&x=24&y=12

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post #53 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

I was joking, as BB pushes warranty plans harder than anything.

Monoprice is highly recommended in the forums. A 10 ft cable is $4.23 with a lifetime warranty. Is a Monster worth $115 more?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/se...ble+&x=24&y=12

Connector Type: HDMI male to HDMI male
Connector Finish: Gold
Length:10 ft
Gauge: 28AWG
# of conductors: 19
Conductor Plating: Tin
Shielding level: Triple
Shielding type: EMI
Ferrite Cores: Yes 7/8" thick and 1 1/2 " long. One on each side of the cable.
HDMI connector Head Measures: 20 x 11 x 37
HMDI Connector Diameter: 8mm
Net Jacket: No
Built-in Equalizer: No
Supported Resolutions: 480i to 4k x 2k



Bandwidth: up to 340 Mhz (10.2 Gbps)
Deep Color: 10-bit, 12-bit, and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths. x.v.Color

HDMI Certified: Yes
HDMI Spec: High Speed HDMI
Category 2 Certified: Yes
HDCP Compliant: Yes
CEC Compliant: Yes
ROHS Compliant: Yes
Comaptible with all Versions of HDMI: Yes
Supports DVD Audio: Yes
Supports SACD: Yes
Supports TrueHD & DTS-HD: Yes

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post #54 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:22 AM
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I can't believe it's that much cheaper. No way. Monster has V-grip technology as well. Ha ha what I joke. I got taken. I usually listen to you guys too about Monster. I was psyched cuz I just got a 65 inch plasma and was all juiced up.

How about the Rocket Fish ones?
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post #55 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:26 AM
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From Monoprice (red by me)
Quote:


Question: Why are your cables so cheap? Are they as good as the name brand cables the retail stores are trying to get me to buy?Answer: Yes, the cables we sell are just as high in quality, construction, materials and reliability as those typically found in retail stores. We stand behind then with a life time warranty. There are many reasons why we can bring you such great value. The main reasons would be as follows, the elimination of the middle man. We are a national distributor working directly the factories and because of this we are basically bringing the product to you at wholesale prices. Retail stores and national brand products have much more overhead including, nationwide networks of stores, distribution warehouses, large commissioned sales staffs, advertising budgets, packaging, etc. But the main reason would be mark up. Most retail work on a "Loss Leader" model of sales. They advertise high ticket items at great prices leaving them with little to no margin. They make up that margin with all add on items they can sell you such as extended warranties, batteries, cases and cables. They sell these items with a very high mark up.


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post #56 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:30 AM
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I'm just going to get Monster. What they hey. You guys won't answer whether Rocket Fish is just as good and keep pushing monocables.
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post #57 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooptonydog View Post

I can't believe it's that much cheaper. No way. Monster has V-grip technology as well. Ha ha what I joke. I got taken. I usually listen to you guys too about Monster. I was psyched cuz I just got a 65 inch plasma and was all juiced up.

How about the Rocket Fish ones?

Rocket Fish is a "store brand". Same principle. $70 for a $4.00 cable. They sell it to their employees for around $10. So $70 is still a hefty markup.

Highway robbery comes to mind.

You can get cables on amazon comparably priced with monoprice.com, you just have to know what you're buying.

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post #58 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooptonydog View Post

I'm just going to get Monster. What they hey. You guys won't answer whether Rocket Fish is just as good and keep pushing monocables.

Sorry I didn't answer sooner. My s key fell off my keyboard and I had a time getting it back on.

personally, I don't own monoprice cables. I have cables by different brands, all for under $10.

You wanna just give away your money to BestBuy, go right ahead. I was just trying to help. You should start at the first post of this thread and read them all.

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post #59 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 02:20 PM
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$14 25foot cable for me with zero loose in picture quality... I can't even see paying $40 at walmart. I'll need to check out those cables recommended on this site.
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post #60 of 75 Old 12-11-2010, 05:02 PM
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Rocketfish are just as good. Only idiots buy Monster snake oil.

Why not just use your cash as toilet paper?
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