Who has seen a Passive 3D panel in person,,, Opinions ??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Im pretty interested in the Vizio 65" passive 3D LED/LCD being released this week,,,,, but other than the movie theater passive 3D,,,,, I have yet to see in person a passive 3D panel.

I've looked online and cant seem to find ANY reviews at all from anyone that has compared active to passive 3D.

Yes,, I know all the tech stuff and all the claims that passive wont be full HD,,, but I was more interested in real world comparisons instead of opinions or speculation of what the passive will look like.

Anyone out there seen a passive 3D panel and if so what was your opinion of passive vs active ?

Thanks in advance

Cheers
Davyo
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post #2 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyo View Post

Im pretty interested in the Vizio 65" passive 3D LED/LCD being released this week,,,,, but other than the movie theater passive 3D,,,,, I have yet to see in person a passive 3D panel.

I've looked online and cant seem to find ANY reviews at all from anyone that has compared active to passive 3D.

Yes,, I know all the tech stuff and all the claims that passive wont be full HD,,, but I was more interested in real world comparisons instead of opinions or speculation of what the passive will look like.

Anyone out there seen a passive 3D panel and if so what was your opinion of passive vs active ?

Thanks in advance

Cheers
Davyo

The differences:
Each eye gets noticeably different color spectrum.
Slightly more ghosting than in active glasses LCD panels.
Zero ambient light flicker.

Mathew Orman
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post #3 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post


The differences:
Each eye gets noticeably different color spectrum.
Slightly more ghosting than in active glasses LCD panels.
Zero ambient light flicker.

Mathew Orman

More ghosting? I thought passive was supposed eliminate ghosting?
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post #4 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 07:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by neo0285 View Post

More ghosting? I thought passive was supposed eliminate ghosting?

No,
becasue it is still frame sequential system.
You are confusing it with passive time parallel system.

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post #5 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 08:08 AM
 
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Just want to add that this technology is only possible with LED back-lighting. It is due to the fact that the polarity rotator full panel TN cell has no ability to block light during LCD panel's refresh cycle.

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post #6 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 08:57 AM
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good conversation, I was wondering the same thing. Just watched Tangled with my daughter yesterday with passive glasses and was quite happy.
I saw no ghosting at all, so at home it wont look as good?
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post #7 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyo View Post

Im pretty interested in the Vizio 65" passive 3D LED/LCD being released this week,,,,, but other than the movie theater passive 3D,,,,, I have yet to see in person a passive 3D panel.

I've looked online and cant seem to find ANY reviews at all from anyone that has compared active to passive 3D.

Yes,, I know all the tech stuff and all the claims that passive wont be full HD,,, but I was more interested in real world comparisons instead of opinions or speculation of what the passive will look like.

Anyone out there seen a passive 3D panel and if so what was your opinion of passive vs active ?

Thanks in advance

Cheers
Davyo

Do you have a link to this announcement? I was under the impression it wasn't going to be released until Q1 2011
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post #8 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:23 AM
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Icester what kind of passive screen are you talking about, none of the ones I know relate to your suggestions.

To answer davyo's question :
I own two different passive 3D displays and have used active displays over the years.
Passive does not mean it's half resolution, it's a shortcut that is often wrongly made because of the lack of products on shelves : passive only relates to the type of glasses used, for example I have a full resolution passive display using dual projectors, filters and a silverscreen, other displays work differently and have different characteristics.

One of the displays I have is a Zalman Trimon 22" monitor, it uses the same polarisation technology as this Vizio TV, this technology is often called Xpol or µpol.

First, yes this display is half resolution when you put the glasses on and it shows, however the picture looks better than what most people believe when told about the half resolution, you usually get the same kind of feeling as when you watch a very good 720p display with good scalers.

These displays feel very bright, there is much less brightness difference between 2D and 3D presentation as with shutter based systems (there is still is a difference though).
Ghosting wise, it's roughly equivalent to the new 3D plasmas (Panasonic and Samsung). It's definitely there but it is low enough to not be an issue and since it's a passive system, ghosting is always positive (bright ghosting) and never negative (dark ghosting as it appears sometimes on LCD 3DTVs with shutter glasses), and it's always proportional to the contrast of the picture.

Ghosting and view angles are related with these displays, they have a narrow viewing angle, horizontally it's quite wide, much wider than what you'll want to use for 3D presentation (3D watched from the side always looks bad, no matter what screen technology you use),

the big problem is the vertical view angle :
On the 22" display it's really small because the pixels are very small, when you watch the screen from the side, the light of the pixels you see goes through the wrong line of filters and you see parts of both pictures (almost 100% ghosting as if you were not wearing glasses at all).
You have to be exactly at the right height, and it makes using these screens very hard for multiple viewers.
On the big screen though, the pixels are bigger so the view angle also is bigger. I have seen a similar display made by hyundai at a trade show and the view angle is indeed wider. You should have no problem getting everyone in the sweet spot by tilting the TV forward or backward a bit when you install it, it will work as long as everybody is sitting on the couch, however if you have some people sitting and others standing you'll exceed the available view angle.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #9 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Icester what kind of passive screen are you talking about, none of the ones I know relate to your suggestions.

To answer davyo's question :
I own two different passive 3D displays and have used active displays over the years.
Passive does not mean it's half resolution, it's a shortcut that is often wrongly made because of the lack of products on shelves : passive only relates to the type of glasses used, for example I have a full resolution passive display using dual projectors, filters and a silverscreen, other displays work differently and have different characteristics.

One of the displays I have is a Zalman Trimon 22" monitor, it uses the same polarisation technology as this Vizio TV, this technology is often called Xpol or µpol.

First, yes this display is half resolution when you put the glasses on and it shows, however the picture looks better than what most people believe when told about the half resolution, you usually get the same kind of feeling as when you watch a very good 720p display with good scalers.

These displays feel very bright, there is much less brightness difference between 2D and 3D presentation (there is still is a difference though).
Ghosting wise, it's roughly equivalent to the new 3D plasmas (Panasonic and Samsung). It's definitely there but it is low enough to not be an issue and since it's a passive system, ghosting is always positive (bright ghosting) and never negative (dark ghosting as it appears sometimes on LCD 3DTVs with shutter glasses), and it's always proportional to the contrast of the picture.

Ghosting and view angles are related with these displays, they have a narrow viewing angle, horizontally it's quite wide, much wider than what you'll want to use for 3D presentation (3D watched from the side always looks bad, no matter what screen technology you use),

the big problem is the vertical view angle :
On the 22" display it's really small because the pixels are very small, when you watch the screen from the side, the light of the pixels you see goes through the wrong line of filters and you see parts of both pictures (almost 100% ghosting as if you were not wearing glasses at all).
You have to be exactly at the right height, and it makes using these screens very hard for multiple viewers.
On the big screen though, the pixels are bigger so the view angle also is bigger. I have seen a similar display made by hyundai at a trade show and the view angle is indeed wider. You should have no problem getting everyone in the sweet spot by tilting the TV forward or backward a bit when you install it, it will work as long as everybody is sitting on the couch, however if you have some people sitting and others standing you'll exceed the available view angle.

You are wrong.
X-pol is half resolution time parallel system and Vizio is 120 Hz frame sequential with full size TN panel polarity rotator just like the Z-Screen and it is FULL HD resolution.
Vizio delivers full 1920x1080 at 60 Hz per eye.
X-pol is 1920x540 at 60 Hz per eye simultaneously.

Mathew Orman
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post #10 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:34 AM
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Do you have a link to this announcement? I was under the impression it wasn't going to be released until Q1 2011

It is on their site and appears to be coming out very soon. A 65 and 55 model
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post #11 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by icester View Post


You are wrong.
X-pol is half resolution time parallel system and Vizio is 120 Hz frame sequential with full size TN panel polarity rotator just like the Z-Screen and it is FULL HD resolution.
Vizio delivers full 1920x1080 at 60 Hz per eye.
X-pol is 1920x540 at 60 Hz per eye simultaneously.

Mathew Orman

The vizio website says that the passive tv does not support full 3d hd but it says yes to theater 3d.
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post #12 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by neo0285 View Post

The vizio website says that the passive tv does not support full 3d hd but it says yes to theater 3d.

You need to reed the spec PDF.

Mathew Orman
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post #13 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by icester View Post


You need to reed the spec PDF.

Mathew Orman

Damn, all this stuff is so confusing. So this new vizio is not going to be any better than the active displays out now, possibly worst.
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post #14 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 10:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by neo0285 View Post

Damn, all this stuff is so confusing. So this new vizio is not going to be any better than the active displays out now, possibly worst.

The main advantage is full HD 3D and passive glasses.
It is the first implementation of TEKTRONIX's Tek 3D technology on LCD panels.
Fortunately TEKTRONIX's patent is long expired so now every manufacturer of LCD panels can implement full resolution passive system without paying anything to TEKTRONIX.

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post #15 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 10:37 AM
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Vizio XVT3D650SV tech specs from Vizio's website :

Quote:


Theater 3D: Yes
Full HD 3D: No
3D Formats Supported: Frame Packing, SENSIO® Hi-Fi 3D, RealD, Top/Bottom and Side-by-Side
Glasses: 4 polarized glasses included

http://www.vizio.com/led-lcd-hdtvs/xvt3d650sv.html

Vizio's PDF about vertical viewing angle (typical of line interleaved Xpol/µpol displays)
http://70.168.148.201/documents/down...ng%20angle.pdf

I don't know where you got the info that the Vizio screen used frame alternating polarisation, but that info you got was wrong. It's definitely an Xpol/µpol display !
Where did you get the PDF claiming it uses a Z-screen ?

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #16 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 10:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUJayhawk20659 View Post

It is on their site and appears to be coming out very soon. A 65 and 55 model

LOL - In January 2010, they said their 3DTVs would ship in August. They shipped at the end of November. In June they said their xPol 3DTV would be available Q1 2011. Their track record of "soon" isn't that good.
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post #17 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 10:46 AM
 
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This is how Xpol technology works:



The display converts all 3D formats to the Line-by-Line (aka Hortizontial Interleave) 3D format for presentation:

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Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Vizio XVT3D650SV tech specs from Vizio's website :


http://www.vizio.com/led-lcd-hdtvs/xvt3d650sv.html

Vizio's PDF about vertical viewing angle (typical of line interleaved Xpol/µpol displays)
http://70.168.148.201/documents/down...ng%20angle.pdf

I don't know where you got the info that the Vizio screen used frame alternating polarisation, but that info you got was wrong. It's definitely an Xpol/µpol display !
Where did you get the PDF claiming it uses a Z-screen ?

You got the wrong PDF.

http://70.168.148.201/documents/down...D650SV-WEB.pdf

Anyway the X-pol does not use 120 Hz.

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post #19 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 11:15 AM
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You have a very strange sense of logic Icester because that specification PDF says Xpol to me.

I didn't read all the pages but i saw this :

Page 4 (installing the TV) : you get the vertical viewing angle notice
Page 37 (how 3D theater works) : says the TV displays left and right eye views at the same time
Page 41 (specifications) : you get no tech specs regarding 3D mode (the FullHD 3D info isn't even there)
The 120Hz refresh rate is a generic refresh rate for 2D mode (other manufacturers claim up to 600Hz there even when the 3D shutter mode maxes at 120Hz)

In this case, not only the website info prevails but this TV has been known to be interlaced since it was first announced.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #20 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 11:19 AM
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Everything I have read says it's an xpol 3dtv technology
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post #21 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

You have a very strange sense of logic Icester because that specification PDF says Xpol to me.

I didn't read all the pages but i saw this :

Page 4 (installing the TV) : you get the vertical viewing angle notice
Page 37 (how 3D theater works) : says the TV displays left and right eye views at the same time
Page 41 (specifications) : you get no tech specs regarding 3D mode (the FullHD 3D info isn't even there)
The 120Hz refresh rate is a generic refresh rate for 2D mode (other manufacturers claim up to 600Hz there even when the 3D shutter mode maxes at 120Hz)

In this case, not only the website info prevails but this TV has been known to be interlaced since it was first announced.

Z-screen have the same limitation on view angle.
There is not a word about X-pol and not a word about half resolution 3D mode.

There is not a word about dynamic frame interpolation if as you claim 120 Hz was used for motion blur or motion smoothing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Z-screen have the same limitation on view angle.
There is not a word about X-pol and not a word about half resolution 3D mode.

There is not a word about dynamic frame interpolation if as you claim 120 Hz was used for motion blur or motion smoothing.

Mathew Orman

Z-Screen is RealD isn't it?

So where is the announcement from RealD? The latest is 11/16 which says Vizio and active eye wear:

http://www.reald.com/Content/Announcements.aspx
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Z-Screen is RealD isn't it?

So where is the announcement from RealD? The latest is 11/16 which says Vizio and active eye wear:

http://www.reald.com/Content/Announcements.aspx

Why?
RealD does not own any patents on Z-screen.
It was a product of TEKTRONIX and RealD had OEM agreement so they could put Z-screen trademark logo on the front instead of Tek-3D which was the original logo of TEKTRONIX passive 3D technology.

TEKTRONIX patent is log expired and any one can add full TN panel to any display not just LCD.
It works with DLP, Plasma and OLED as well.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Why?
RealD does not own any patents on Z-screen.
It was a product of TEKTRONIX and RealD had OEM agreement so they could put Z-screen trademark logo on the front instead of Tek-3D which was the original logo of TEKTRONIX passive 3D technology.

TEKTRONIX patent is log expired and any one can add full TN panel to any display not just LCD.
It works with DLP, Plasma and OLED as well.

Mathew Orman

So who is selling one? Got a link to a product currently being sold?

This was RealD's latest announcement concerning passive display 3DTV:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1278133
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So who is selling one? Got a link to a product currently being sold?

You custom order full size panel for your LCD screen from:

http://www.lctecdisplays.com/default.asp

That is if you have enough money.

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If Vizio's latest vaporware 3D TV turns out to be X-pol
then why make it 65 inch. The artifacts due to interlacing
will seriously degrade performance and small text will be unreadable.

Mathew Orman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post
You custom order full size panel for your LCD screen from:

http://www.lctecdisplays.com/default.asp

That is if you have enough money.

Mathew Orman
Oh - so we are NOT talking about a consumer display now correct?

And Vizio IS a consumer display CEM correct?
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post #28 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
Oh - so we are NOT talking about a consumer display now correct?

And Vizio IS a consumer display CEM correct?
No,
we are still talking about Vizio unless you want to change subject.

Nothing can stop Vizio from implementing passive frame sequential technology on LCD screens.
They are not just changing labels on Samsung TVs.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post
If Vizio's latest vaporware 3D TV turns out to be X-pol
then why make it 65 inch. The artifacts due to interlacing
will seriously degrade performance and small text will be unreadable.

Mathew Orman
Quote:
Since Vizio admits they are "conflicted" as to which 3D approach is best at this time, it will also come to market with a passive polarized solution. This will be an X-pol type display at 65 inches with the X-pol laminated panel coming from AUO.
http://displaydaily.com/2010/06/23/v...cea-line-show/

AU Optronics Corporation

Quote:
At the opening of the show Mr. Ko accepted a Gold Panel Award on behalf of his company for their 65 3DTV (below).
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...ink-part-1.php

That's Xpol technology.
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post #30 of 45 Old 12-12-2010, 02:37 PM
 
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Quote:
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If you could only get confirmation from Vizio.

If the TV accepts 120 Hz video then it should be compatible with nVidia's 3D Vision Kit glasses in full HD 3D.

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