Passive 3D projection question - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 06-10-2011, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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So I'm thinking about passive 3D as an option as opposed to expensive active shutter glasses, and because friends like to drink.

As far as I have found optima has the only 3D splitter on the market (3D-XL) that can split a 3D signal into left or right eye only.

So to my understanding for passive 3D I'll need 2 of the same projector (LED/DLP/120Hz, would be best)

2 of the 3D-XL

Two polarized filter, or just use passive 3D glasses as filters as ling as they are the same kind used for viewing and the projector isn't giving off too much heat (LED)

And a screen that will keep the polarization of the light.

And an HDMI 1.4 splitter.

---

1st question... For video portion is there anything I'm missing or wrong about?

2nd. Are there any options other then the 3D-XL?

3rd. What screens should I look for and what spec do I need to look at for 3D screens?

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post #2 of 27 Old 06-11-2011, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

So I'm thinking about passive 3D as an option as opposed to expensive active shutter glasses, and because friends like to drink.

As far as I have found optima has the only 3D splitter on the market (3D-XL) that can split a 3D signal into left or right eye only.

So to my understanding for passive 3D I'll need 2 of the same projector (LED/DLP/120Hz, would be best)

2 of the 3D-XL

Two polarized filter, or just use passive 3D glasses as filters as ling as they are the same kind used for viewing and the projector isn't giving off too much heat (LED)

And a screen that will keep the polarization of the light.

And an HDMI 1.4 splitter.

---

1st question... For video portion is there anything I'm missing or wrong about?

2nd. Are there any options other then the 3D-XL?

3rd. What screens should I look for and what spec do I need to look at for 3D screens?

The other option is a single projector and either the 3D-XL or VIP theater/displayer to drive a polarity rotator in front of the projector similar to what is used for real D in theaters.
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post #3 of 27 Old 06-11-2011, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

So I'm thinking about passive 3D as an option as opposed to expensive active shutter glasses...

....so how is buying 2 projectors and a silver screen a less expensive option than glasses?
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post #4 of 27 Old 06-11-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

....so how is buying 2 projectors and a silver screen a less expensive option than glasses?

Depends how many glasses you buy...

3dxl x 2 = $800
hd66 x 2 = $1200
Da-Lite 8x10 silver screen = $600
hdmi splitter, filters, etc = $400

Total (without glasses): $3000

Single setup: approx. $1000 without glasses.

Active shutter glasses = average $100/pair

Prices approximate, of course, but if you're planning on buying more than about 20 pairs it is immediately cost-effective. If you don't want the headache or worry of batteries, failure, etc., then the passive glasses become more appealing.

The other consideration is that a passive system does not require a 3d projector, so if you're set on a 1080 display or special features unique to a particular projector, the dual setup potentially brings a very nice setup into the affordable range.

And, as mkoss mentioned, using a single projector and polarity rotator can trim ~$1000 off the price.
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post #5 of 27 Old 06-11-2011, 02:51 PM
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Except quality active glasses can be had for as little as $50 per pair, with further discounts available for bulk purchases.

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post #6 of 27 Old 06-11-2011, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Except quality active glasses can be had for as little as $50 per pair, with further discounts available for bulk purchases.

True. And active glasses can be had as little as free (at least one theater in the U.S. includes take-home glasses in the ticket price, and disney rewards members can also get them with points).

Don't get me wrong, I have an active setup and I love it. But I definitely see the appeal of passive.
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post #7 of 27 Old 06-11-2011, 06:02 PM
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I have both panel Passive Panel and Active FP. I auditioned a very expensive Passive LG projector and it sucks on silver screen. Viewing angle is extremely limited. This can be greatly improved with an expensive screen option which is a cylindrical screen. Last I checked this setup will run you $22,000. Limitation of the passive panel is vertical angle of view but horizontal angle is quite broad. Active glasses makes me tired after a single movie and I need a break. Passive panel is in my edit suite for editing 3D and I can sit all day long and not get tired looking at 3D. Picture quality on the active FP at 110" screen size is quite good. Larger screens on passive the jaggies get annoying but color is good. I have a smaller Passive panel because I'm sitting within 5'. Mine is a 32" and the distances work well.
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post #8 of 27 Old 06-12-2011, 06:03 PM
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I would say go for a passive 3d tv as with a projector you loose clarity but with a tv you would not. I currently have a 47 inch LG passive 3d tv and find the clarity very clear on 3d films.

regards
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post #9 of 27 Old 06-12-2011, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by speedytweedy View Post
I would say go for a passive 3d tv as with a projector you loose clarity but with a tv you would not. I currently have a 47 inch LG passive 3d tv and find the clarity very clear on 3d films.

regards
You don't lose clarity if it's an HD projector... HD is HD, no matter the display. You may lose luminence with a projector, but that's why you watch in a light controlled room. Also the size of the screen makes a huge difference for immersion in the 3D scene, and 47 inches doesn't even come close when compared to a projector.

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post #10 of 27 Old 06-13-2011, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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The 3D tv option cuts your resolution in half as 1/2 the pixels are allocated to each eye. 3D projection with 2 projectors will overlay polarized light for each pixel.

The screen seems to be the sticking point for me. Polarized screens I've found seem to have very limited viewing angles. I was wondering what the best screen could be?

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post #11 of 27 Old 06-13-2011, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m-heat View Post

The 3D tv option cuts your resolution in half as 1/2 the pixels are allocated to each eye. 3D projection with 2 projectors will overlay polarized light for each pixel.

The screen seems to be the sticking point for me. Polarized screens I've found seem to have very limited viewing angles. I was wondering what the best screen could be?

Most active 3D TVs do not cut the resolution in half. They are 1080P per eye. Passive 3D TVs are half resolution, at 540 lines per eye. Checkerboard (DLP) is a whole 'nother animal somewhere between the two. It still has 1080 lines per eye, but uses only half the pixels.

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post #12 of 27 Old 03-14-2012, 07:09 PM
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Check out the passive polarized edition of the optoma HD33, found it on 3D HDGuru, seems awesome. there are passive polarized epson 5010 and panny's now too! single projector solution is the way to go.
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post #13 of 27 Old 03-15-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DGURU4Life View Post

Check out the passive polarized edition of the optoma HD33, found it on 3D HDGuru, seems awesome. there are passive polarized epson 5010 and panny's now too! single projector solution is the way to go.

Please post a link to the panny and epson passive set ups. I am really interested in a passive set up.
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post #14 of 27 Old 03-24-2012, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post


Please post a link to the panny and epson passive set ups. I am really interested in a passive set up.

Yes really are they 4k projectors passive to 2k? Or are they 1080 passive to 540?

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post #15 of 27 Old 03-25-2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

....so how is buying 2 projectors and a silver screen a less expensive option than glasses?

It would not be less expensive depending on what you have, but passive dual projection 3D has advantages in brightness and no eye strain from the shutters. if you look at the thread here under dilpays/ultimate passive 3D system you will see a much better alternative passive system that dose not need a silver screen.
an HTPC or even a standard PC can be used instead of the 3dxl's to split a 3d signal to the two projectors. ive been using just this setup and it looks great. i built it with two $325 dlp's a pc i had and a filter set total cost ~$1000. using a matt white screen it looks very good even at 120"

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post #16 of 27 Old 03-25-2012, 10:22 AM
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It's not just eyestrain. With active 3D you lose depth when things move (including your eyes) due to the fact that your eyes are out of sync. Only projected passive 3D provides 2x 1080p (1080p for both eyes) simultaneously. For direct view TVs, passive is better for things that move, active is better for things that are stationary and when your eyes aren't moving. This is like the old arguments of 720p versus 1080i - they both take the same bandwidth but display it differently. 540 lines per eye continuously for passive TVs, 1080 lines alternating eyes for active.
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post #17 of 27 Old 03-25-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

It's not just eyestrain. With active 3D you lose depth when things move (including your eyes) due to the fact that your eyes are out of sync. Only projected passive 3D provides 2x 1080p (1080p for both eyes) simultaneously. For direct view TVs, passive is better for things that move, active is better for things that are stationary and when your eyes aren't moving. This is like the old arguments of 720p versus 1080i - they both take the same bandwidth but display it differently. 540 lines per eye continuously for passive TVs, 1080 lines alternating eyes for active.

When things move with passive, I see jaggies. I don't see anything you mention when watching active.

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post #18 of 27 Old 03-25-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

It's not just eyestrain. With active 3D you lose depth when things move (including your eyes) due to the fact that your eyes are out of sync. Only projected passive 3D provides 2x 1080p (1080p for both eyes) simultaneously. For direct view TVs, passive is better for things that move, active is better for things that are stationary and when your eyes aren't moving. This is like the old arguments of 720p versus 1080i - they both take the same bandwidth but display it differently. 540 lines per eye continuously for passive TVs, 1080 lines alternating eyes for active.

I will have to disagree with you. I have an active 3d dlp projector setup and I do not loose depth when things move or my eyes move. You have to remember with active yes each eye gets 1080, but it does it so fast each eye gets 60 frames a second for a total of 120 it's just like being on continously that's why passive will always produce a softer image unless you use a passive 4000k display or expensive dual projector setups.
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post #19 of 27 Old 03-26-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lewis3845 View Post

I will have to disagree with you. I have an active 3d dlp projector setup and I do not loose depth when things move or my eyes move. You have to remember with active yes each eye gets 1080, but it does it so fast each eye gets 60 frames a second for a total of 120 it's just like being on continously that's why passive will always produce a softer image unless you use a passive 4000k display or expensive dual projector setups.

I understand your skepticism but the physics are pretty straightforward. As your eyes track from left to right (or right to left), one eye is delayed relative to the other and this delay causes a gap between the two images that changes the perceived depth. For left-to-right tracking the error is more depth, and for right to left tracking the error is less depth. I have placed a sample file that shows the issue at the following location.

http://www.mediafire.com/?9do452h1f0row6p

It's a 720p60 side-by-side file that should play back on many players (including PS3) as well as some TVs. It will play back as a normal 720p video, so you'll need to force your display into side-by-side mode to get 3D.

The video itself is a synthesized clock face at a 3D depth corresponding to 20 pixels of positive parallax. The moving "hands" are mastered at the same depth as the clock border. If you view this on a passive system (or pause the video), everything appears at the same depth. On an active system, however, when the hands sweep across the top of the clock, they appear too deep, and when they sweep across the bottom, too shallow.

Let me know if there are any problems with this file. I made it quite quickly this morning and I have not tested it out fully.
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post #20 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 11:24 AM
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The frame sequential presentation of active shutter systems does distort the depth perception. You usually don't lose the 3D but stuff isn't where it should be. Unless the distortions are strong enough to cause conflicts between objects on the scene.

It's physics and it's been known for decades. 3D Film directors are aware of this issue and try to avoid doing specific types of shots that would cause major issues but they can't completely escape it, otherwise they'd have to do completely still shots.
If you are sensitive to this issue you'll find it on any active or frame sequential system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

When things move with passive, I see jaggies. I don't see anything you mention when watching active.

You are probably comparing active with an FPR TV set. He is talking about dual-head passive projection. Also, unless you are trained to see the difference, you probably won't notice it and bear with the little eyestrain (maybe blaming it on bad footage) unless you have specific footage which makes it obvious.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #21 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

I understand your skepticism but the physics are pretty straightforward. As your eyes track from left to right (or right to left), one eye is delayed relative to the other and this delay causes a gap between the two images that changes the perceived depth. For left-to-right tracking the error is more depth, and for right to left tracking the error is less depth. I have placed a sample file that shows the issue at the following location.

http://www.mediafire.com/?9do452h1f0row6p

It's a 720p60 side-by-side file that should play back on many players (including PS3) as well as some TVs. It will play back as a normal 720p video, so you'll need to force your display into side-by-side mode to get 3D.

The video itself is a synthesized clock face at a 3D depth corresponding to 20 pixels of positive parallax. The moving "hands" are mastered at the same depth as the clock border. If you view this on a passive system (or pause the video), everything appears at the same depth. On an active system, however, when the hands sweep across the top of the clock, they appear too deep, and when they sweep across the bottom, too shallow.

Let me know if there are any problems with this file. I made it quite quickly this morning and I have not tested it out fully.

everyone has their own opinion..I tried but can't even open up the test file. I was watching 3d last night testing what you said (loss of depth) I seen none when moving my eyes or things moving on screen I even paused the movie and see no problems maybe I'm just not sensitive to it and I've not heard anyone else compaining about this.
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post #22 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 12:30 PM
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I game on a 720p 120Hz DLP projector for up to 10 hrs consecutively and it doesn't bother me nor do I notice it.
If you describe the physical act of making love using descriptive terms it sounds pretty disgusting too.
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post #23 of 27 Old 03-27-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

I game on a 720p 120Hz DLP projector for up to 10 hrs consecutively and it doesn't bother me nor do I notice it.
If you describe the physical act of making love using descriptive terms it sounds pretty disgusting too.

I also game on mine with no problems although my eyes do get tired of 3d whether it's active or passive. I do see why people would go with a passive system if they have the need for lots of glasses, but I bought my 4 optoma's for $35 a piece open box and I would not pay over $40 for active glasses. I bought my whole active 3d projector setup for $850 that's screen, projector,3D processor, glasses. A single or dual projector passive system would be much more for almost the same thing.
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post #24 of 27 Old 03-29-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis3845 View Post

I also game on mine with no problems although my eyes do get tired of 3d whether it's active or passive. I do see why people would go with a passive system if they have the need for lots of glasses, but I bought my 4 optoma's for $35 a piece open box and I would not pay over $40 for active glasses. I bought my whole active 3d projector setup for $850 that's screen, projector,3D processor, glasses. A single or dual projector passive system would be much more for almost the same thing.


I build my passive dual projector rig to demo the omega 3d kit for under $1000. and i dont need a silver screen.

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post #25 of 27 Old 03-29-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DGURU4Life View Post

Check out the passive polarized edition of the optoma HD33, found it on 3D HDGuru, seems awesome. there are passive polarized epson 5010 and panny's now too! single projector solution is the way to go.

Plz post a link to the 5010 modulator, I have yet to see one that syncs with 480hz panels!
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post #26 of 27 Old 03-29-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

I build my passive dual projector rig to demo the omega 3d kit for under $1000. and i dont need a silver screen.

That's still more money and your using a pc with a video card which is extra also 2 projectors is 2 bulbs and not to mention converging the 2, If I do passive in the future it would have to be a single setup because I'm cheap
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post #27 of 27 Old 03-30-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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$1000 is very cheap even for a 2d projector

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